Is it possible to master both the light side and dark side at the same time?

[DreksOrden]

That would be like attempting to keep calm and rational, filled with Zen whilst simultaneously being angry, hateful and full of rage, it isn't possible to use both, it does not work that way, regardless of power, they'd cancel each other out.

 

so basically, this would create a galaxy full of bruce bannors and hulks

[DreksOrden]

Personally i think the reason that the Sith are so driven to exterminate the jedi is not what side of the force they use but how conservative they are about how its used. Xendor was the orrigional dark side user and the legions of lettow were attacked by jedi zealots who would not stop until they were eliminated. the first person to attack in full rage darkside technique was ironically the guy sent to kill xendor who used a force tactic to kill xendors lover by Ceasing up all her body systems. The dark jedi from the second schism only attacked after being kicked out for expanding the knowledge of the force to potentially cure people of being mortal.

[Captain_Zone]

You have not shown any proof to support your claim that according to Leland Chee the EU doesn't have to conform to Lucas' vision. Until that time I postulate that you are either lying or you are misremembering a fact. We know that the EU has to follow and conform to the vision of Lucas in any and all cases.

 

I misremembered the actual quote. Once again, here it is since I grabbed it from another thread where I used it, and that was a direct copy/paste from Leland's blog on starwars.com before they took the blogs offline for reworking:

 

Q: How does the Holocron canon system fit with the "3-pillars" system George Lucas talks about?

 

Chee: "G" canon and "T" canon comprise George Lucas's vision of the Star Wars universe.

 

"C" canon and "S" canon comprise the vision of the Star Wars universe held by Lucas Licensing that goes beyond George Lucas's vision. This material is collectively referred to as the Expanded Universe

 

Notice how he compares G & T to C & S Canon. Also, as soon as the blogs go back up on starwars.com, you WILL have that link.

 

George Lucas's vision of Star Wars started with Episode I and ended with Episode VI. Throw in the TCW series, since T-Canon is his vision as well, according to Leland Chee. Who is, btw, the authority on Canon since he invented and implemented the current system for Star Wars.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[ProfessorWalsh]

I misremembered the actual quote. Once again, here it is since I grabbed it from another thread where I used it, and that was a direct copy/paste from Leland's blog on starwars.com before they took the blogs offline for reworking:

 

 

 

Notice how he compares G & T to C & S Canon. Also, as soon as the blogs go back up on starwars.com, you WILL have that link.

 

George Lucas's vision of Star Wars started with Episode I and ended with Episode VI. Throw in the TCW series, since T-Canon is his vision as well, according to Leland Chee. Who is, btw, the authority on Canon since he invented and implemented the current system for Star Wars.

 

Wrong.

 

It goes BEYOND his vision it does not nullify his vision. If his vision encompasses how the Force works, and it does, then T and C canon must conform to his vision. They can extend areas he hasn't already extended on, but they can't change anything he has already stated.

 

Example:

 

In Star Wars: The Clone Wars there was a scene when a Mandalorian had a vibroblade and fought Obiwan. George Lucas saw it and said, "What is that?" and they explained to him about vibroblades and cortosis and what not. Lucas said, "No. Change it. Nothing but a lightsaber can block a lightsaber."

 

They changed it.

 

That was also the last incident of a lightsaber proof weapon in canon. According to panels when asked about it the authors confirmed that they are no longer allowed to include such things in canonical works.

 

Why? Because George Lucas said "No" and they have to conform to his opinion and statements on the matter. This was brought up because in one novel a Mandalorian had Beskar armor that could stop a lightsaber, in the very next book in the same series the Mandalorian armor was pierced on the first hit and offered no resistance to a lightsaber.

Edited June 23, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Captain_Zone]

Wrong.

 

It goes BEYOND his vision it does not nullify his vision. If his vision encompasses how the Force works, and it does, then T and C canon must conform to his vision. They can extend areas he hasn't already extended on, but they can't change anything he has already stated.

 

Example:

 

In Star Wars: The Clone Wars there was a scene when a Mandalorian had a vibroblade and fought Obiwan. George Lucas saw it and said, "What is that?" and they explained to him about vibroblades and cortosis and what not. Lucas said, "No. Change it. Nothing but a lightsaber can block a lightsaber."

 

They changed it.

 

That was also the last incident of a lightsaber proof weapon in canon. According to panels when asked about it the authors confirmed that they are no longer allowed to include such things in canonical works.

 

Why? Because George Lucas said "No" and they have to conform to his opinion and statements on the matter. This was brought up because in one novel a Mandalorian had Beskar armor that could stop a lightsaber, in the very next book in the same series the Mandalorian armor was pierced on the first hit and offered no resistance to a lightsaber.

 

Where did I EVER say it nullified George's vision? Now you're putting words in my mouth.

 

Now, if we remove all trace of Common Sense from Star Wars completely, then you are 100% right. NOBODY can master both sides of the Force. Do you admit that common sense has no place in Star Wars? Remember, a LOT of grey area depends on common sense. In other words, "Doing what you have to do" in any given situation. I put forward a THEORY based on common sense, and you said I was wrong and a liar. I NEVER said it was fact, but you called me a liar, anyway. So, I highly suggest you work on your people skills and think before throwing out accusations like that. Especially if you want to have a civilized debate.

 

Now, this discussion is over.

[murshawursha]

Lucas has come out and said that the light side and the dark side of the force both exist, and exist separately. So, technically, I guess the answer to this question is. "No."

 

But honestly, between you and me? **** Lucas. I've always personally preferred the "force as a tool" metaphor. It can be used for good or evil, but itself is innately neither.

 

Traitor, in NJO, is one of my favorite books because of Vergere's viewpoint. "There is no dark side. That is the shameful secret of the Jedi. The only darkness that exists is the darkness within one's self."

 

Course then they retconned her to be a Sith, but **** that too.

 

The way I see it, if a Jedi is fighting a Sith (or somebody else we will arbitrarily label as 'evil' for the purposes of this discussion) in order to protect a group of innocents from harm, and in order to defeat said Sith, the Jedi embraces all of his hatred for what the Sith represents and his anger at what the Sith has done/is going to do in order to strengthen himself during the battle, he has not committed an evil act. He has not gone over to the dark side. He has simply used the best tools available to vanquish a threat and preserve a number of lives. That's not dark, that's getting the job done.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Where did I EVER say it nullified George's vision? Now you're putting words in my mouth.

 

Now, if we remove all trace of Common Sense from Star Wars completely, then you are 100% right. NOBODY can master both sides of the Force. Do you admit that common sense has no place in Star Wars? Remember, a LOT of grey area depends on common sense. In other words, "Doing what you have to do" in any given situation. I put forward a THEORY based on common sense, and you said I was wrong and a liar. I NEVER said it was fact, but you called me a liar, anyway. So, I highly suggest you work on your people skills and think before throwing out accusations like that. Especially if you want to have a civilized debate.

 

Now, this discussion is over.

 

You swore up and down that the proof you had was that there was a quote that said that C canon was the Author's vision and not George Lucas vision. When I said that there was no such statement you went off stating again and again that there was. I apologize for jumping to a conclusion but this particular topic is a very heated one.

 

Since this game was in beta people have argued that you can use the Light and the Dark. People scream: "Revan did it!" people scream, "Kyle Katarn did it!" it is a debate that has gone on on these very forums at least a hundred times. After all of that whenever it gets brought up again I bristle and for that I apologize.

 

You did, by the by, seem to present it as fact.

 

In fact saying, as you did:

 

"It is theoretically possible" as you did is a statement of fact.

 

You never said, "I think it might be possible."

 

Saying "it is theoretically possible" means that it is factually able to happen when in fact the truth is... In Star Wars... It cannot. It is impossible.

 

As to stating:

 

Now, if we remove all trace of Common Sense from Star Wars completely, then you are 100% right.

 

Is again incorrect. A correct statement would be:

"If we don't apply your definition of common sense to the fictional supernatural energy source known as the Force then I am 100% right/"

 

It is common sense that one cannot master the Dark Sides and the Light Sides simultaneously.

 

The Dark Side is a corrupting influence. The Light Side is not a corrupting influence. A person cannot Master the Dark Side and then Master the Light Side because in order to Master the Dark Side one must give into it, or realistically one is taken over by it.

 

What people fail to grasp is that the Dark Side and the Light Side are not "tools" as you seem to think. The second someone starts using the Dark Side they become twisted by it, they lose the ability to think rationally. Their minds jump to conclusions that don't make sense and there is no way to avoid that, even using "Cool Passions" wouldn't work because it is still using the Dark Side. There is no "Good" Dark Side.

 

A text book example of this is Anakin Skywalker.

 

We actually see his mind snap in Episode III.

 

Padme runs down to stand by him. She tells him to leave with her, she tells him that they can just go off and be together, she begs him to do that. She obviously does not want him to die.

 

When Obiwan walks off of her ship, Anakin, who logically should know that Obiwan is a Jedi and could sneak onto her ship if he wanted to. Who also knows that Jedi always try to take prisoners in all but the most dire of circumstances.

 

Instantly Anakin jumps to the conclusion that Obiwan Kenobi who is like a brother or even surrogate father to him, whom he has been with for over a decade now, who has tried to save even dire enemies is there to kill him and he instantly jumps to the conclusion that Padme, who is surprised and whom he should be able to feel the surprise from is complacent in the act.

 

And that is why you can't Master the Dark Side and the Light Side. Because it isn't possible to know when you have gone too far because at a certain point you won't realize when too far has been reached.

 

Sadly, once you get to a certain point, you can't actually turn away on your own. It actually takes a person consumed by the Dark Side to actually witness the Dark Side defeated in order to have a chance to turn back. They have to actively be shown by a third party that they are wrong in such a way that the Dark Side loses its grip for a split second.

 

Then, once that happens, if you start to dabble in the Dark Side after you escape from it, even the slightest bit, you instantly start to fall to the Dark Side at an extremely rapid rate.

 

Luke Skywalker suffered this in Specter of the Past / Visions of the Future.

 

He had previously nearly fallen to the Dark Side and he was using it again and not even realizing it. Mara Jade had to point out to him that he was using the Dark Side before he realized he was. The Dark Side is like a drug... Once you use it... You run the risk of becoming an addict. It may not happen the first time though one day you will and the only way to avoid it is not to use it.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Lucas has come out and said that the light side and the dark side of the force both exist, and exist separately. So, technically, I guess the answer to this question is. "No."

 

But honestly, between you and me? **** Lucas. I've always personally preferred the "force as a tool" metaphor. It can be used for good or evil, but itself is innately neither.

 

Traitor, in NJO, is one of my favorite books because of Vergere's viewpoint. "There is no dark side. That is the shameful secret of the Jedi. The only darkness that exists is the darkness within one's self."

 

Course then they retconned her to be a Sith, but **** that too.

 

The way I see it, if a Jedi is fighting a Sith (or somebody else we will arbitrarily label as 'evil' for the purposes of this discussion) in order to protect a group of innocents from harm, and in order to defeat said Sith, the Jedi embraces all of his hatred for what the Sith represents and his anger at what the Sith has done/is going to do in order to strengthen himself during the battle, he has not committed an evil act. He has not gone over to the dark side. He has simply used the best tools available to vanquish a threat and preserve a number of lives. That's not dark, that's getting the job done.

 

Vegere was wrong. You may wish that she wasn't but she was. Actually given that Vergere planned all along to turn the new Jedi Order to the Dark Side and specifically Jacen Solo she was likely simply flat out lying.

[Maaruin]

Personally i think the reason that the Sith are so driven to exterminate the jedi is not what side of the force they use but how conservative they are about how its used. Xendor was the orrigional dark side user and the legions of lettow were attacked by jedi zealots who would not stop until they were eliminated. the first person to attack in full rage darkside technique was ironically the guy sent to kill xendor who used a force tactic to kill xendors lover by Ceasing up all her body systems. The dark jedi from the second schism only attacked after being kicked out for expanding the knowledge of the force to potentially cure people of being mortal.

 

Yeah, because creating dark side abominations is totally a way to cure mortality. These Dark Jedi were mad scientists, not some benevolent healers.

 

(By the way, where was the first battle during the First Great Schism fought? Not on Lettow, but on the Jedi World Ossus.)

Edited June 23, 2012 by Maaruin

[ProfessorWalsh]

Personally i think the reason that the Sith are so driven to exterminate the jedi is not what side of the force they use but how conservative they are about how its used. Xendor was the orrigional dark side user and the legions of lettow were attacked by jedi zealots who would not stop until they were eliminated. the first person to attack in full rage darkside technique was ironically the guy sent to kill xendor who used a force tactic to kill xendors lover by Ceasing up all her body systems. The dark jedi from the second schism only attacked after being kicked out for expanding the knowledge of the force to potentially cure people of being mortal.

 

Dear lord you are misrepresenting the facts.

 

You are acting like the Dark Jedi were kicked out simply because the Sith were performing experiments and that the Jedi were the aggressors?

 

No.

 

Just... No.

 

First off, in the schism, the Dark Jedi who were exiled weren't just playing nice-nice. They were also forcing other Jedi to follow them by using threats, coercion, and (no joke) straight up torture. They were also creating Dark Side abominations.

 

They were taking life and twisting it with the Dark Side of the Force. That is a major no-no. It isn't like they didn't know they weren't supposed to do that.

 

Also...

 

The Jedi who "attacked" the Legions of Letthow weren't simply extremists who were trying to wipe them out. You forget the part with the Legions of Letthow had vowed that the Jedi had to join them or die before then.

[_biddan_]

r-e-v-a-n,REVAN!R.E.V.A.N.!

REEEVAAAAAN!

[AlyxDinas]

Vegere was wrong. You may wish that she wasn't but she was. Actually given that Vergere planned all along to turn the new Jedi Order to the Dark Side and specifically Jacen Solo she was likely simply flat out lying.

 

That's the tricky thing. Even if she was wrong, which is fine...pretty much everything written in reaction to her supposed teachings and her philosophy...strawman and completely get her philosophy completely incorrect. Worst yet, at times the dismissals create plot holes in terms of a character's metaknowledge (ie. Luke's comments to Akanah in Allies).

[Rayla_Felana]

r-e-v-a-n,REVAN!R.E.V.A.N.!

REEEVAAAAAN!

 

How many times do we need to tell you that he achieved oneness, not mastery of either, he has never been stated to have mastery over any aspect of the force.

[Captain_Zone]

You swore up and down that the proof you had was that there was a quote that said that C canon was the Author's vision and not George Lucas vision. When I said that there was no such statement you went off stating again and again that there was. I apologize for jumping to a conclusion but this particular topic is a very heated one.

 

Since this game was in beta people have argued that you can use the Light and the Dark. People scream: "Revan did it!" people scream, "Kyle Katarn did it!" it is a debate that has gone on on these very forums at least a hundred times. After all of that whenever it gets brought up again I bristle and for that I apologize.

 

You did, by the by, seem to present it as fact.

 

In fact saying, as you did:

 

"It is theoretically possible" as you did is a statement of fact.

 

You never said, "I think it might be possible."

 

Saying "it is theoretically possible" means that it is factually able to happen when in fact the truth is... In Star Wars... It cannot. It is impossible.

 

As to stating:

 

 

 

Is again incorrect. A correct statement would be:

"If we don't apply your definition of common sense to the fictional supernatural energy source known as the Force then I am 100% right/"

 

It is common sense that one cannot master the Dark Sides and the Light Sides simultaneously.

 

The Dark Side is a corrupting influence. The Light Side is not a corrupting influence. A person cannot Master the Dark Side and then Master the Light Side because in order to Master the Dark Side one must give into it, or realistically one is taken over by it.

 

What people fail to grasp is that the Dark Side and the Light Side are not "tools" as you seem to think. The second someone starts using the Dark Side they become twisted by it, they lose the ability to think rationally. Their minds jump to conclusions that don't make sense and there is no way to avoid that, even using "Cool Passions" wouldn't work because it is still using the Dark Side. There is no "Good" Dark Side.

 

A text book example of this is Anakin Skywalker.

 

We actually see his mind snap in Episode III.

 

Padme runs down to stand by him. She tells him to leave with her, she tells him that they can just go off and be together, she begs him to do that. She obviously does not want him to die.

 

When Obiwan walks off of her ship, Anakin, who logically should know that Obiwan is a Jedi and could sneak onto her ship if he wanted to. Who also knows that Jedi always try to take prisoners in all but the most dire of circumstances.

 

Instantly Anakin jumps to the conclusion that Obiwan Kenobi who is like a brother or even surrogate father to him, whom he has been with for over a decade now, who has tried to save even dire enemies is there to kill him and he instantly jumps to the conclusion that Padme, who is surprised and whom he should be able to feel the surprise from is complacent in the act.

 

And that is why you can't Master the Dark Side and the Light Side. Because it isn't possible to know when you have gone too far because at a certain point you won't realize when too far has been reached.

 

Sadly, once you get to a certain point, you can't actually turn away on your own. It actually takes a person consumed by the Dark Side to actually witness the Dark Side defeated in order to have a chance to turn back. They have to actively be shown by a third party that they are wrong in such a way that the Dark Side loses its grip for a split second.

 

Then, once that happens, if you start to dabble in the Dark Side after you escape from it, even the slightest bit, you instantly start to fall to the Dark Side at an extremely rapid rate.

 

Luke Skywalker suffered this in Specter of the Past / Visions of the Future.

 

He had previously nearly fallen to the Dark Side and he was using it again and not even realizing it. Mara Jade had to point out to him that he was using the Dark Side before he realized he was. The Dark Side is like a drug... Once you use it... You run the risk of becoming an addict. It may not happen the first time though one day you will and the only way to avoid it is not to use it.

 

No. That means IT'S A THEORY. Stop trying to twist my words.

 

That said, something just occurred to me about George's statement that you posted.

 

"Only a lightsaber can stop a lightsaber."

 

To which I say: "Then why didn't Luke win the duel on Bespin when he hit Vader's arm with his lightsaber?"

 

If "Only A Lightsaber Can Stop A Lightsaber", then that strike would have cut Vader's arm clean off.

 

Seriously, George needs to THINK before he opens his mouth, and STOP RETCONNING HIS OWN WORK!

 

And you need to stop taking everything George says as Law. Oh wait! You didn't take that statement he made to Starlog as Law. Did you? Because if you had, then the Expanded Universe would have been invalidated, since it isn't George's vision.

 

Btw, that question and answer were NOT taken out of context. George made a distinction between the comics/novels and the movies. It was completely in context. He made a point of saying how the comics and novels were not his vision.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[ProfessorWalsh]

No. That means IT'S A THEORY. Stop trying to twist my words.

 

That isn't the correct word usage for what you wanted to convey. Things are murky when you start talking about what is and isn't possible in a fictional universe, when someone says theoretically possible they usually aren't referring to their own theory.

 

That said, something just occurred to me about George's statement that you posted.

 

"Only a lightsaber can stop a lightsaber."

 

To which I say: "Then why didn't Luke win the duel on Bespin when he hit Vader's arm with his lightsaber?"

 

If "Only A Lightsaber Can Stop A Lightsaber", then that strike would have cut Vader's arm clean off.

 

Seriously, George needs to THINK before he opens his mouth, and STOP RETCONNING HIS OWN WORK!

 

Actually there is no retcon. If you watch the scene in Bespin very carefully we aren't really sure what we saw. I've watched that particular scene several dozen times frame by frame in HD. I am not even sure if the hit was a brush against the shoulder or a deflection. The blow was not however stopped.

 

And you need to stop taking everything George says as Law. Oh wait! You didn't take that statement he made to Starlog as Law. Did you? Because if you had, then the Expanded Universe would have been invalidated, since it isn't George's vision.

 

Just to let you know we do have to take everything George Lucas says as law. When George made that statement to Starlog all heck broke loose because of the possible implications of it. I didn't mind because I actually read the original quote which you are continuing to take out of context.

 

You are trying to take the words Lucas used in that interview completely out of context and use it to validate your argument by placing it in a vacuum. Things don't work that way. The question he was answering was:

 

"What do you take into consideration when making future Star Wars films.

 

In any case there were many who reacted in the same manner you did, by assuming that Lucas had just retconned the entire EU. The fan reaction was such that Lucas Arts and Leland Chee had to go talk to George Lucas and then issue a statement clarifying the intentions of George Lucas.

 

Btw, that question and answer were NOT taken out of context. George made a distinction between the comics/novels and the movies. It was completely in context. He made a point of saying how the comics and novels were not his vision.

 

See above, you are taking it out of context because he was asked specifically what he considered while making films.

[murshawursha]

Vegere was wrong. You may wish that she wasn't but she was. Actually given that Vergere planned all along to turn the new Jedi Order to the Dark Side and specifically Jacen Solo she was likely simply flat out lying.

 

Vergere was essentially retconned to have been wrong. At the time the NJO was written, I'm far from convinced she was planned to be a Sith all along.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Vergere was essentially retconned to have been wrong. At the time the NJO was written, I'm far from convinced she was planned to be a Sith all along.

 

I don't think she was planned on being Sith but when she first started talking a lot of people... Me included... Instantly saw the things she was saying and went, "Huh, she sounds like a Sith."

 

Her small chides at Luke Skywalker's lack of knowledge, insinuating that he didn't know what he was really talking about. Her massive use of deception constantly considering she was lying actively to the Jedi and to the Voong. Her coldness when she blocked Jacen Solo's ability to use the Force and her downlooking remarks considering it. Her use of the tired old lines of how the Force is a tool.

 

She screamed Sith so loud that my ears hurt.

[Captain_Zone]

That isn't the correct word usage for what you wanted to convey. Things are murky when you start talking about what is and isn't possible in a fictional universe, when someone says theoretically possible they usually aren't referring to their own theory.

 

 

 

Actually there is no retcon. If you watch the scene in Bespin very carefully we aren't really sure what we saw. I've watched that particular scene several dozen times frame by frame in HD. I am not even sure if the hit was a brush against the shoulder or a deflection. The blow was not however stopped.

 

 

 

Just to let you know we do have to take everything George Lucas says as law. When George made that statement to Starlog all heck broke loose because of the possible implications of it. I didn't mind because I actually read the original quote which you are continuing to take out of context.

 

You are trying to take the words Lucas used in that interview completely out of context and use it to validate your argument by placing it in a vacuum. Things don't work that way. The question he was answering was:

 

"What do you take into consideration when making future Star Wars films.

 

In any case there were many who reacted in the same manner you did, by assuming that Lucas had just retconned the entire EU. The fan reaction was such that Lucas Arts and Leland Chee had to go talk to George Lucas and then issue a statement clarifying the intentions of George Lucas.

 

 

 

See above, you are taking it out of context because he was asked specifically what he considered while making films.

 

No. This was the question:

TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"

 

Now you're changing the words of the question to try and prove your point. In the above context, George specified that everything after RotJ was not his vision of Star Wars. That was his opinion. If everything that is his opinion is taken into account, we can probably discard most of the Expanded Universe wholesale. George's first Sith Lord was Darth Ruin. George's story ends with RotJ. Nothing in pre-PT/Ruin or post-RotJ is George's story/vision of Star Wars.

 

From what I've seen, he is never content to let things be. He wonders why a huge number of fans despise him? He only needs to look at all the retcons he does to established lore and canon. Including his own. This here is just a list of the ones I know of, off the top of my head:

 

1. Greedo shot first. - Best example of George taking a "mulligan" with his own work, and screwed up the story of Han Solo finding a cause to believe in and evolving from dirtbag to hero.

2. "Only a Lightsaber can stop a Lightsaber." - How many fans and authors /facepalmed at that one?

3. No New Wookiee Jedi. - Are Wookiees not good enough to be Jedi?

4. The Original Jedi Code wasn't restrictive enough. - "Yet" instead of "There is NO". This is maybe the only one with an actual reason to it. As the Original Code was worded, there was nothing in there that would justify the Jedi banning or even severely restricting relationships.

 

At least he allowed Boba Fett to be "resurrected" in C-Canon and allows him to survive in the post-RotJ ExU. Also, at least he grandfathered in Lowbacca as the last Wookiee Jedi. Right now, those are about the only good things he's done as far as meddling in the ExU, imo.

 

Oh, and and before I forget: Leland Chee actually did admit to two separate continuities. G and G+C. In two quotes dated after the one you read where he said there was only one.

 

The first one, and probably the one you read:

On August 4, 2004, when asked if the G and C-levels formed separate and independent canon, Chee responded by stating that both were part of a single canon: "There is one overall continuity."

 

The second and third quotes, both on the same day:

In a December 6, 2006 post, Chee suggests the existence of a second continuity composed only of the films:

 

 

The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving.[9]

 

On a post made on the same day, Chee stated that:

 

 

Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity.

[murshawursha]

I don't think she was planned on being Sith but when she first started talking a lot of people... Me included... Instantly saw the things she was saying and went, "Huh, she sounds like a Sith."

 

Her small chides at Luke Skywalker's lack of knowledge, insinuating that he didn't know what he was really talking about. Her massive use of deception constantly considering she was lying actively to the Jedi and to the Voong. Her coldness when she blocked Jacen Solo's ability to use the Force and her downlooking remarks considering it. Her use of the tired old lines of how the Force is a tool.

 

She screamed Sith so loud that my ears hurt.

 

Frankly... I sort of agreed with a lot of what she said about Luke. As far as blocking Jacen's access to the force, well... Did he not become much, much stronger because of it? I could be misremembering, but isn't that how he developed Vongsense?

 

Also, regarding the quote in your sig... Whatever happened to "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."?

[Captain_Zone]

Frankly... I sort of agreed with a lot of what she said about Luke. As far as blocking Jacen's access to the force, well... Did he not become much, much stronger because of it? I could be misremembering, but isn't that how he developed Vongsense?

 

Also, regarding the quote in your sig... Whatever happened to "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."?

 

Obi-Wan said that too. "Only Sith deal in absolutes" Eve-rybo-dy SITH!

[ProfessorWalsh]

Frankly... I sort of agreed with a lot of what she said about Luke. As far as blocking Jacen's access to the force, well... Did he not become much, much stronger because of it? I could be misremembering, but isn't that how he developed Vongsense?

 

Also, regarding the quote in your sig... Whatever happened to "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."?

 

The main issue you have here is not that a Sith deals in absolutes (god I am sick of people trying to use that as a rallying cry without knowing what it means) it is that a Jedi cares about both the means and the Ends not simply the ends.

 

Yes... Jacen experienced pain and torture and eventually gained vongsense because of Vergere's actions. Doesn't make what she did any less wrong. She did something to Jacen against his will (taking away his ability to feel the Force) and then let him be tortured because she wanted to teach him a lesson.

 

What about that doesn't sound like a Sith?

 

What about that sounds like a Jedi?

 

As for Luke... Why the hatred for Luke? He isn't just some farmboy from the movies by that point. He had been taught by everyone from Darth Sidious to the Holocron of Baas. He knows more about the Force than Vergere has any right to know.

[murshawursha]

The main issue you have here is not that a Sith deals in absolutes (god I am sick of people trying to use that as a rallying cry without knowing what it means) it is that a Jedi cares about both the means and the Ends not simply the ends.

 

Yes... Jacen experienced pain and torture and eventually gained vongsense because of Vergere's actions. Doesn't make what she did any less wrong. She did something to Jacen against his will (taking away his ability to feel the Force) and then let him be tortured because she wanted to teach him a lesson.

 

What about that doesn't sound like a Sith?

 

What about that sounds like a Jedi?

 

As for Luke... Why the hatred for Luke? He isn't just some farmboy from the movies by that point. He had been taught by everyone from Darth Sidious to the Holocron of Baas. He knows more about the Force than Vergere has any right to know.

 

She inflicted pain, yes, but it wasn't pain for its own sake, it wasn't her torturing him for fun, it was with the goal of making him stronger, and perhaps teaching him the lesson that was necessary for him to understand the Vong, and perhaps even necessary to defeat them. It certainly didn't sound like a Jedi, but neither did it sound entirely like a Sith. And my whole argument argument is that it doesn't have to be one or the other. There is more to the force than simply Jedi and Sith.

 

My issue with Luke is simply that I find his character to be rather closed-minded when it comes to the force. That was why I loved Jacen so much - he went out of his way to gain as deep an understanding of it as he could. He went from one end of he galaxy to the other learning everything he possibly could from anyone who would teach him. He thought that maybe there was more to the force than what Luke was teaching, that maybe there was more to the force than just light and dark.

 

I never perceived his fall to be because of his wider view of the force. He fell because he was so desperate to secure the galaxy from the threat he perceived, and he felt the only way to make it safe was to take matters into his own hands. As a result, he ended up squeezing too hard and lost sight of the people he was trying to save.

 

I'm not saying there isn't a line. I'm just saying it's perforated.

[ProfessorWalsh]

She inflicted pain, yes, but it wasn't pain for its own sake, it wasn't her torturing him for fun, it was with the goal of making him stronger, and perhaps teaching him the lesson that was necessary for him to understand the Vong, and perhaps even necessary to defeat them. It certainly didn't sound like a Jedi, but neither did it sound entirely like a Sith. And my whole argument argument is that it doesn't have to be one or the other. There is more to the force than simply Jedi and Sith.

 

My issue with Luke is simply that I find his character to be rather closed-minded when it comes to the force. That was why I loved Jacen so much - he went out of his way to gain as deep an understanding of it as he could. He went from one end of he galaxy to the other learning everything he possibly could from anyone who would teach him. He thought that maybe there was more to the force than what Luke was teaching, that maybe there was more to the force than just light and dark.

 

I never perceived his fall to be because of his wider view of the force. He fell because he was so desperate to secure the galaxy from the threat he perceived, and he felt the only way to make it safe was to take matters into his own hands. As a result, he ended up squeezing too hard and lost sight of the people he was trying to save.

 

I'm not saying there isn't a line. I'm just saying it's perforated.

 

You don't get it.

 

The Force doesn't care if you had good reasons for doing bad things. If you inflict pain it doesn't matter why you did it. What Vergere did was unquestionably of the Dark Side.

 

You do know that Luke has also studied with others right? He doesn't have a narrow view, he simply believes (correctly according to canon) that the Jedi way is the correct way.

 

Also it has more or less been confirmed. Jacen Solo fell due to the things Vergere planted the seeds of.

 

Vergere's plan was pretty simple and very typical of the Sith:

 

Step 1:

Make the person feel like their teachers may be wrong. This serves to shake their faith in their teachers and also causes them to begin to question what they previously "knew" per se.

 

Step 2:

Do something that makes the student feel special or more powerful but which requires them to do something that is against the teachings that they had previously been taught.

 

Step 3:

Boost the student's ego, tell them that they are better/stronger/smarter and feed that ego.

 

Step 4:

Reveal to the student that the Dark Side isn't automatically evil and that their teachers did not understand the danger it has, it isn't automatically corrupting or anything, it is just that it can be dangerous to use if one isn't strong enough. Of course their previous teachers were too stupid/ignorant to know that and were too weak/unskilled to actually manage it safely. Tell them that they are smart/wise enough to use it and strong/skilled enough to handle it and tell them that it can be used for good, used to accomplish the goals the student wants.

 

Vergere died after step 3.

Lumiya completed step 4.

[AlyxDinas]

Also it has more or less been confirmed. Jacen Solo fell due to the things Vergere planted the seeds of.

 

And what where those things? Because they certainly weren't even close to what we're later told they were. Hell, Denning doesn't even get it right in Dark Nest, let alone anything that follows.

 

Because the only thing that Vergere taught, at it's core included authenticity in action, actions made in good faith, and the general sanctity of life. In fact, it becomes very hard to reconcile, say, the Vergere of Destiny's Way with any of the information we are supposed to believe about her later of.

[ProfessorWalsh]

And what where those things? Because they certainly weren't even close to what we're later told they were. Hell, Denning doesn't even get it right in Dark Nest, let alone anything that follows.

 

Because the only thing that Vergere taught, at it's core included authenticity in action, actions made in good faith, and the general sanctity of life. In fact, it becomes very hard to reconcile, say, the Vergere of Destiny's Way with any of the information we are supposed to believe about her later of.

 

She specifically belittled Luke to Jacen in a very backhanded way no less.

 

She said, I am paraphrasing here, "He has done very well with what little he could." which directly implies that he could do better if he knew more, and also directly insinuating that Vergere did know more.

 

When she took away Jacen's connection to the Force she figuratively told him, "You act like a child and I am taking away your toys."

 

Which is something no Jedi or even Light Sider would do save for in the most dire of circumstances to the most evil type of Force User.

 

She allowed him to be tortured and then made him think that such actions were good if one had good enough reason to do it.

 

She did what a text book Sith would do when trying to turn someone to the Dark Side.

Edited June 24, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh