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Is it possible to master both the light side and dark side at the same time?


Xanikk

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Nobody has mastered both at once and it's likely impossible.

 

Revan has come the closest. He's also the pretty much the only person aside from Jacen/Caedus who has mastered both at some point.

 

Kyle and Luke have mastered Light, but I wouldn't say either of them have mastered dark because in order to master Dark you pretty much need to go full Sith. I would say Anakin/Vader mastered Dark, but not Light.

 

I also love the people talking about "blah blah gray you can master both at once". Luke has specifically said there is no gray, only the Light and the Dark. I would say the most powerful force user to ever live who has significant experience in both sides knows more about the subject than you. Jacen tried to the find the "gray" and all it did was make him turn. He's not the first either.

Edited by Stncold
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Nobody has mastered both at once and it's likely impossible.

 

Revan has come the closest. He's also the pretty much the only person aside from Jacen/Caedus who has mastered both at some point.

 

Kyle and Luke have mastered Light, but I wouldn't say either of them have mastered dark because in order to master Dark you pretty much need to go full Sith. I would say Anakin/Vader mastered Dark, but not Light.

 

I also love the people talking about "blah blah gray you can master both at once". Luke has specifically said there is no gray, only the Light and the Dark. I would say the most powerful force user to ever live who has significant experience in both sides knows more about the subject than you. Jacen tried to the find the "gray" and all it did was make him turn. He's not the first either.

 

And once again, we come down to "Just because a character says it, doesn't mean it's true." That's Luke's point of view. Luke is not infallible. He makes mistakes, just like anyone else. George has been notorious about his views on black and white. But does that hold true for the Expanded Universe as well? C-Canon is literally NOT George's vision, by the statement Leland Chee made just last year on his blog, defining the difference. It's the vision of the other authors in the Star Wars universe. George's vision of Star Wars started with Episode I, and ended with Episode VI.

 

When people take something George says as to how he would have done stuff differently, and apply it to the Expanded Universe, you get misinterpretations. Some of those misinterpretations can lead some to believe that nothing post-RotJ is even C-Canon. To which I will say this: If you take everything in C-Canon that isn't George Lucas's vision of Star Wars, and discard it, the Expanded Universe gets a LOT smaller. As in nearly non-existent.

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And once again, we come down to "Just because a character says it, doesn't mean it's true." That's Luke's point of view. Luke is not infallible. He makes mistakes, just like anyone else. George has been notorious about his views on black and white. But does that hold true for the Expanded Universe as well? C-Canon is literally NOT George's vision, by the statement Leland Chee made just last year on his blog, defining the difference. It's the vision of the other authors in the Star Wars universe. George's vision of Star Wars started with Episode I, and ended with Episode VI.

 

When people take something George says as to how he would have done stuff differently, and apply it to the Expanded Universe, you get misinterpretations. Some of those misinterpretations can lead some to believe that nothing post-RotJ is even C-Canon. To which I will say this: If you take everything in C-Canon that isn't George Lucas's vision of Star Wars, and discard it, the Expanded Universe gets a LOT smaller. As in nearly non-existent.

 

Captain Zone... You are wrong. Period. End of discussion. In Star Wars there is no gray area as far as the Force is concerned. The rule is that once Lucas makes his mind known about something concrete then all levels of canon must reciprocate. This includes the EU. The lack of gray areas in the Force is part of the rules of the universe.

 

Yes, just because a character says something doesn't make it true, also however your fanon theory of there being gray areas in the Force isn't true either. Characters in universe have said it, the creator has said it, and even Leland Chee confirmed it.

 

Let it go. You are wrong in this case.

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Captain Zone... You are wrong. Period. End of discussion. In Star Wars there is no gray area as far as the Force is concerned. The rule is that once Lucas makes his mind known about something concrete then all levels of canon must reciprocate. This includes the EU. The lack of gray areas in the Force is part of the rules of the universe.

 

Yes, just because a character says something doesn't make it true, also however your fanon theory of there being gray areas in the Force isn't true either. Characters in universe have said it, the creator has said it, and even Leland Chee confirmed it.

 

Let it go. You are wrong in this case.

 

Prove it.

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Nobody has mastered both at once and it's likely impossible.

 

Revan has come the closest. He's also the pretty much the only person aside from Jacen/Caedus who has mastered both at some point.

 

Kyle and Luke have mastered Light, but I wouldn't say either of them have mastered dark because in order to master Dark you pretty much need to go full Sith. I would say Anakin/Vader mastered Dark, but not Light.

 

I also love the people talking about "blah blah gray you can master both at once". Luke has specifically said there is no gray, only the Light and the Dark. I would say the most powerful force user to ever live who has significant experience in both sides knows more about the subject than you. Jacen tried to the find the "gray" and all it did was make him turn. He's not the first either.

 

Once again that isn't mastery over both sides, which is impossible because they are the antithesis to each other, it is oneness which can happen to anyone at any time.

 

As far as oneness itself is concerned, there are only a few people who have done this with one aspect of the force, Surik, Fay, Yoda, Luke, etc.. were the only ones we know of that were Enlightened to the Light Side of the Force, where the Dark Side is concerned we have quite a few:

 

Darth Malgus, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus, Lord Vitiate, Darth Sidious and the like are the ones who were truly powerful in the force and either achieved oneness or became the Dark Side itself, which may as well be the same thing.

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Prove it.

 

I don't have to. Burden of proof is on you. You are the one who made the claim that there were gray areas you are the one that has to prove they exist.

 

See you can't prove a negative. Just like you cannot prove that there isn't an invisible intangible completely silent magical unicorn sitting behind you right now.

 

These "gray areas" that you speak of are an invisible intangible completely silent magical unicorn.

 

I don't need to prove they don't exist, you need to prove that they do.

 

Here are the facts:

 

1. Nobody has ever done it.

2. The creator said that there are two definitive and incompatible sides to the Force.

3. Luke Skywalker, Jedi Grandmaster, trained by Yoda and Darth Sidious has said it and he is at the moment the most knowledgeable source in the entire Star Wars universe.

4. Pretty much every Jedi Master we know of has said it.

5. Every time the Sith claim it it has always been a ploy to turn someone to the Dark Side.

6. Everyone who has ever tried it has fallen to the Dark Side or gone completely insane.

7. Even Mace Windu, who supposedly did something like this with Vaapad realized he was being tainted in the end, also everyone else who used the style went insane or stopped using it by realizing it was too dangerous.

8. Every source that has ever talked about this from an out of universe perspective has said flat out that it isn't possible. PotJ even went so far as to flat out say that the Potentium was completely wrong.

9. We have out of universe confirmation (PotJ) that the Jedi orthodox outlook on the Force is the most correct one.

 

Your argument doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

Edited by ProfessorWalsh
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I think there is quite a bit of confusion here, there is a 'between' area if you even want to label it that, where you aren't truly light side or dark side because you haven't learned to use them properly yet and you haven't been taught to connect properly with the force, but that also means you are rather weak in the force, because the only true paths are the Dark Side and the Light Side of the Force, this 'grey' or 'neutral' aspect only exists when you are not truly attuned to the Force and which ever aspect you have grown strong in.
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I think there is quite a bit of confusion here, there is a 'between' area if you even want to label it that, where you aren't truly light side or dark side because you haven't learned to use them properly yet and you haven't been taught to connect properly with the force, but that also means you are rather weak in the force, because the only true paths are the Dark Side and the Light Side of the Force, this 'grey' or 'neutral' aspect only exists when you are not truly attuned to the Force and which ever aspect you have grown strong in.

 

Actually that is incorrect as well. Your ability to use them doesn't make you light or dark sided. Force Sensitives use the Force all the time, usually unconsciously, and someone who has no idea what they are doing, and are weak in the Force, can fall to the Dark Side. That is actually one of the reasons why Jedi sometimes take children from their parents because the child can fall to the Dark Side without even realizing what they are doing... This can happen within the first two years of life in some cases.

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Actually that is incorrect as well. Your ability to use them doesn't make you light or dark sided. Force Sensitives use the Force all the time, usually unconsciously, and someone who has no idea what they are doing, and are weak in the Force, can fall to the Dark Side. That is actually one of the reasons why Jedi sometimes take children from their parents because the child can fall to the Dark Side without even realizing what they are doing... This can happen within the first two years of life in some cases.

 

What you described is exactly what I was describing....

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I don't have to. Burden of proof is on you. You are the one who made the claim that there were gray areas you are the one that has to prove they exist.

 

See you can't prove a negative. Just like you cannot prove that there isn't an invisible intangible completely silent magical unicorn sitting behind you right now.

 

These "gray areas" that you speak of are an invisible intangible completely silent magical unicorn.

 

I don't need to prove they don't exist, you need to prove that they do.

 

Here are the facts:

 

1. Nobody has ever done it.

2. The creator said that there are two definitive and incompatible sides to the Force.

3. Luke Skywalker, Jedi Grandmaster, trained by Yoda and Darth Sidious has said it and he is at the moment the most knowledgeable source in the entire Star Wars universe.

4. Pretty much every Jedi Master we know of has said it.

5. Every time the Sith claim it it has always been a ploy to turn someone to the Dark Side.

6. Everyone who has ever tried it has fallen to the Dark Side or gone completely insane.

7. Even Mace Windu, who supposedly did something like this with Vaapad realized he was being tainted in the end, also everyone else who used the style went insane or stopped using it by realizing it was too dangerous.

8. Every source that has ever talked about this from an out of universe perspective has said flat out that it isn't possible. PotJ even went so far as to flat out say that the Potentium was completely wrong.

9. We have out of universe confirmation (PotJ) that the Jedi orthodox outlook on the Force is the most correct one.

 

Your argument doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

 

So, existentialism. Nice play. We live in a world of shades of grey. Not black and white. Black and white have a place. In old television sets. But even black and white TV had shades of grey in it. To believe that everything in any universe is black and white is naive, to say the least.

 

Now, to answer your "facts":

 

1. Yet.

2. In his vision of it, yes.

3. Fictional character. Not always true.

4. Pretty much?

5. Sith tend to lie a lot, but that's not to say it isn't possible.

6. So far.

7. Once again, so far. Mace Windu used Vaapad for how many decades? Maybe he realized he was being tainted in the end, but executing Palpatine WAS the only viable option at the time. Palpatine owned the courts and the Senate.

8. Let's take religious viewpoints out of the equation.

9. And? Jedi Orthodox just sounds like just another religion. Try looking at it without the religious reference.

 

My point was that it would be possible in theory. As I said before, it would be extremely difficult.

 

There is an old saying, which I'm sure you've heard before. "Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts, absolutely." That was the basic message of Star Wars, especially in Episodes I - III. There have also been cases of rulers having absolute power, and not being corrupted by it. They looked after their people first.

 

How many times have good characters in Star Wars done what was necessary, not what was considered "good"? Did all or even most of those characters fall to the Dark Side?

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So, existentialism. Nice play. We live in a world of shades of grey. Not black and white. Black and white have a place. In old television sets. But even black and white TV had shades of grey in it. To believe that everything in any universe is black and white is naive, to say the least.

 

Refuted:

Star Wars is not our world nor our universe. It does not conform to the constants that ours does, for example, in Star Wars there is sound in space meaning either space in Star Wars doesn't have a vacuum (we know it does) or that for some unknown reason sound can travel in it. You have not proven that there are shades of gray in the Force. Trying to justify your argument with, "There are shades of gray in the real world!" doesn't fly as Star Wars isn't the real world. It is a work of Science Fantasy and it was intended to go by a simplistic form of good and evil, black and white.

 

Now, to answer your "facts":

 

Actually you aren't going to answer anything. You are going to try to mock them without ever once giving any actual facts to back up your theory.

 

1. Yet.

 

Now, if you would like to refute it... I'd be willing to listen. Right now... 0 refutations.

 

2. In his vision of it, yes.

 

Still 0 refutations. The EU has to conform to his vision.

 

3. Fictional character. Not always true.

 

Actually we have been told Luke is pretty much always right on matters of the Force. However you still haven't refuted anything.

 

4. Pretty much?

 

There were two Jedi Masters who claimed that the Force had gray areas... Both of them fell to the Dark Side and went insane.

 

5. Sith tend to lie a lot, but that's not to say it isn't possible.

 

And you have yet to produce anything that even implies that it is possible.

 

6. So far.

 

You have never been in a debate have you? You can't say, "So far." and expect it to be accepted as a rebuttal.

 

7. Once again, so far. Mace Windu used Vaapad for how many decades? Maybe he realized he was being tainted in the end, but executing Palpatine WAS the only viable option at the time. Palpatine owned the courts and the Senate.

 

That has nothing to do with the argument. It doesn't matter about Palpatine even his use of it corrupted him in the end.

 

8. Let's take religious viewpoints out of the equation.

 

When an out of universe source states that the Jedi view is the correct view there are no religious viewpoints. That is a fact. Your attempted rebuke here fails, and you can't counter that we have been told the Jedi view is the correct one.

 

9. And? Jedi Orthodox just sounds like just another religion. Try looking at it without the religious reference.

 

I'm not. You are simply unable to refute it so you are trying to make it look like I am talking about an in-universe opinion. I'm not.

 

We have been told the Jedi view is right.

The Jedi say that there is no gray area.

Argo the Jedi are right and there is no gray area.

Case closed. You cannot refute it.

 

My point was that it would be possible in theory. As I said before, it would be extremely difficult.

 

No it isn't. It isn't possible. The theory is wrong because we have been told by an unbiased out of universe sourcebook that the Jedi view is correct. If the Jedi view is correct then your theory is wrong. It isn't theoretically possible because the Jedi view, which we have been told is correct, says it isn't. It cannot be correct and incorrect at the same time, that is a paradox.

 

How many times have good characters in Star Wars done what was necessary, not what was considered "good"? Did all or even most of those characters fall to the Dark Side?

 

Just because someone can make a lapse in judgement doesn't make them instantly Dark Side. Nor does using the Dark Side once, or even twice. Using the Dark Side once as a lapse in judgment and "mastering it" are not the same thing.

 

Also, amusing side note. In Star Wars when a good character does something bad for good reasons we learn that they still get punished. Mara Jade went after Jacen Solo, she did something bad for a good reason, she wound up in the Force equivalent of purgatory. Jacen Solo did all the bad that he did ultimately for a good reason, he wanted to save the Galaxy... And by his own words he was condemned to "Damnation" for it.

 

So to sum it up for you...

 

Your theory that someone can master both the light side and use them simultaneously is wrong.

 

Or to use your own logic:

"Sure it could happen... If Star Wars wasn't Star Wars... If the EU didn't follow the rules laid out by Lucas... If you were in charge of it..."

 

But it can't because Star Wars takes place in a universe that must follow the rules laid out by George Lucas who has already been very clear on this subject and you are not in charge of Star Wars and you don't get to insist that they have this shade of gray.

Edited by ProfessorWalsh
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First of all, George is behind the Clone Wars TV series right? So apparently Neutral, Father, or the Unifying Force was first, the came Son, Dark Side and Daughter, Light Side. Those two always fight... And at one point it is STATED that Anakin's destiny is to become the Father and enforce a peace between the two siblings. So it seems George has changed his mind. But age does make people more tolerant.

 

Now, AGAIN!!! Ancient Tython. Oh, and I still hold by what I said about cold passion. There is no need for heat to channel Darkness. Even a cool passion for something non-physical can be a driving force and that drive will allow you to touch the darkside. As a calm passion however it would not have the same immediate effect as the wild passions. If you chanel it when calm (remember what Yoda said about calm?) when you're at peace you should be able to achieve an internal balance and be safe from the corruption of either side. The important part is the perfect balance... Thus, ancient Tython.

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First of all, George is behind the Clone Wars TV series right? So apparently Neutral, Father, or the Unifying Force was first, the came Son, Dark Side and Daughter, Light Side. Those two always fight... And at one point it is STATED that Anakin's destiny is to become the Father and enforce a peace between the two siblings. So it seems George has changed his mind. But age does make people more tolerant.

 

You are trying to make something that is symbolic into something that is literal. You are incorrect.

 

Anakin didn't make the Light Side and the Dark Side play nice together. Anakin returned the Force to a state of balance because the Bane-line Sith were actively causing an imbalance. When Anakin killed Emperor Palpatine's body in Episode VI the effect the Bane-line of Sith were causing was destroyed. The Force returned to a state of balance.

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First of all, George is behind the Clone Wars TV series right? So apparently Neutral, Father, or the Unifying Force was first, the came Son, Dark Side and Daughter, Light Side. Those two always fight... And at one point it is STATED that Anakin's destiny is to become the Father and enforce a peace between the two siblings. So it seems George has changed his mind. But age does make people more tolerant.

 

Now, AGAIN!!! Ancient Tython. Oh, and I still hold by what I said about cold passion. There is no need for heat to channel Darkness. Even a cool passion for something non-physical can be a driving force and that drive will allow you to touch the darkside. As a calm passion however it would not have the same immediate effect as the wild passions. If you chanel it when calm (remember what Yoda said about calm?) when you're at peace you should be able to achieve an internal balance and be safe from the corruption of either side. The important part is the perfect balance... Thus, ancient Tython.

 

I also need to state that you keep bringing up ancient Tython.

 

You don't know anything about ancient Tython. Both sides of the Force were not meant to interact and you cannot do what you are claiming you could do in the universe that Star Wars exists in.

 

IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

 

Good lord people why do you have such a hard time accepting Star Wars as what it is and the rules of the Force as what they are?

Edited by ProfessorWalsh
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We don't know because no one has tried channeling the Dark side through a calm passion while at peace. And I I rather think the Father, Son and Daughter were literal. They were the physical embodiment of the Force. Ancient Tython had it that perfection was a state of balance. Oddly enough there was NO DS/LS conflict until the formation of the Jedi Order which dedicated themselves solely to the Light. As soon as they did everything blew up in their faces. If you have a better explanation please let me know... nicely.
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We don't know because no one has tried channeling the Dark side through a calm passion while at peace. And I I rather think the Father, Son and Daughter were literal. They were the physical embodiment of the Force. Ancient Tython had it that perfection was a state of balance. Oddly enough there was NO DS/LS conflict until the formation of the Jedi Order which dedicated themselves solely to the Light. As soon as they did everything blew up in their faces. If you have a better explanation please let me know... nicely.

 

The guy who wrote the Mortis Trilogy flat out said it was symbolic. Not only that but Fate of the Jedi states that the "Father" the "Son" and the "Daughter" weren't the Force. They were beings in Star Wars that later became the Celestials. They were not the Force. If they were the Force then the Light Side would have died when the Daughter died and it didn't... Also we know that it wasn't literal because Anakin did bring balance to the Force and he didn't do it by doing anything with the Father, Daughter, and Son.

 

Also... Again you don't know your history of Tython either. The first conflict came before there was a Jedi Order. The first conflict came when people were beginning to learn about the Force. The Jedi Order came far after that. Not only that but the first conflicts came at the beginning of recorded history according to the Kiliks.

 

Your theory... Again... Is incorrect.

 

Also note:

Jedi have actually tried that. They went insane. Jacen Solo tried that actually... He went completely bat-guano bonkers.

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Did you play the consular? The first known conflict was the Force Wars and it was started by Rajivari.

 

And yes, the Father, Son and daughter were not the Force. They were avatars. But that does not mean they were without power and influence. And yes it was symbolic - and the symbolism was that of BALANCE. Anakin was supposed to make the two siblings coexist peacefully. He was not supposed to kill the Son. If he had been I would agree with you that balance is the destruction of the Dark Side. But he was not and it wasn't. So we can assume George has changed his views somewhat.

 

As for Fate of the Jedi - Luke says that it is now the job of Jedi and Sith to find balance; that in the absence of the Avatars Jedi and Sith must personify the Dark and Light.

 

Quote:

 

During the return of Abeloth in 44 ABY, Grand Master Luke Skywalker—the son of Chosen One Anakin—read the mission report in the Jedi Archives about his father and his mentor's experiences on Mortis. Combined with the information gathered from the Thuruht hive, Luke realized that his father's refusal to become the new Keeper of Balance had in fact set off a disastrous chain of events. With the death of the Ones, the galaxy began to slide into darkness; the number of conflicts and chaos in the last 65 years were evidence enough of that. After Abeloth's defeat at the hands of Luke and Darth Krayt, Luke believed that the Jedi and the Sith must become the new Ones: they must keep the Balance themselves.

 

Also: "It is only here that I can control them. A family in balance. The light and the dark. Day with night. Destruction, replaced by creation."

"Then why reveal yourselves to us?"

"There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it.

 

Even symbolically this is pretty specific. So clearly SOMETHING has changed somewhere...

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As a tangential note, we do have a sense that the New Jedi Order is pretty much closest to its ancestral Jed'aii roots by the end of the Vong War than the Jedi had been for millennia . Whether or not you think this is a good or bad thing is a matter of interpretation but it warrants comment nonetheless.

 

If anything, some of the rigidity we see from the order later on helps to exacerbate the problems they face. But that's another subject entirely. Can you master both sides of the Force? Not really, no. But philosophically, there's a lot more room among the Jedi for different ethical outlooks and philosophies than we are often lead to believe. The generally monolithic and wallpaper nature of "the Jedi" in series like LOTF and especially FOTJ lead us to forget this.

 

This recent push for an orthodoxy within the canon to what was nominally an monastic order with a very loose ethical philosophy based on life's value (as part of the Force) has made things detrimentally more dogmatic, quite frankly. Not in the sense that it limits what the Jedi can do in terms of ability. Jedi serve the light and do it well enough. Often they're impressive and Luke, regardless of some unfortunate characterizations by choice authors, is still an amazing example of a non secular hero. But the push we've seen in the setting's cosmology to make opposing forces something to be feared and destroyed rather than something to be understood as necessary to complete a whole has generally narrowed the possibilities of the EU and the Jedi's place in it most of all.

 

At the very least, it makes things exceptionally one note. Which, even for is supposedly space opera/pulp garbage, is unfortunate.

 

As for Fate of the Jedi - Luke says that it is now the job of Jedi and Sith to find balance; that in the absence of the Avatars Jedi and Sith must personify the Dark and Light.

 

Which, honestly, is sad. Because such a philosophy is self defeatist and needlessly prosaic. When you really examine it, it turns into little more than a flimsy excuse for conflict as the status quo. It's almost vile, really.

Edited by AlyxDinas
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Looking from the history POV - yes. Several characters achieved that.

 

Revan - Jedi Knight who fought in Mandalorian Wars and then journeyed into Unknown Regions because he sensed that real threat comes from there.

 

 

Unprepared he faced immortal Emperor who brainwashed him and sent back as his minion to prepare galaxy for his own return and conquer.

 

 

When Revan came back he was Sith. Here first KOTOR starts when he is betrayed by Malak, brainwashed my Jedi Council and forced to walk a LS again. After that events we are given a story that reveals what happened to him after Star Forge destruction. "Revan" novel is clear. As a former user of both sides he is capable of controlling LS and DS simultaneously.

 

Similar pattern applies to Kyle Katarn. Rather constant switching between two opposite made him somewhat master of both. Jaden Korr from Jedi Academy was also capable of both sides wielding (tho canon says he was LS one).

 

There was a discussion about which emotions feed what side of the Force. Let me remind you training that Kreia gave to the Exile. Especially one - on Nar Shaddaa. There was a small side quest with some refugee that asks for some money. Exile has two options:

- LS: help poor soule and give him credits he was asking for (typical LS move - help, compassion)

- DS: refuse and let poor guy meet his fate (selfish, cruel move)

 

I remember, back then I was playing a Jedi Exile. Do you recall what Kreia said after helping poor refugee? She granted you a Force Vision of what happened to that refugee after you helped him (noble act, mind you). Some local thugs noticed your help and stalked that refugee. They ambushed him and in the end killed as he struggled to keep the money.

 

In the end your good reaction caused death and suffering. Noble Jedi and LS act that resulted in Dark Side outcome.

 

Next time I played Sith Exile and I refused to help and left. Kreia approved and granted me different Force Vision of near refugee's future. Although I didn't help and didn't changed refugee's material status he benefited from my selfish attitude. Still leading his miserable life but he survived. My cruel act saved him from thugs assault, pain and death. What is more - refugee realized that begging isn't changing anything, he started to think how to overcome his situation and in the end he left Nar Shaddaa alive and lived his life.

 

In the end your evil reaction caused a very positive feedback as refugee rethinked his life, start to act and survived.

 

So my question is: which evil is evil? The one you do (refuse to help) or that one which result in evil (help and then cause death)? How this applies to the Force alignment and emotions feed?

 

I see the Force as a whole, no Dark, no Light. Force just is. Only the way one is using define the outcome. It's like an axe. Same axe can chop wood to build a shelter as well as chop others head. Is axe good or evil?

 

I think that both Jedi and Sith are wrong in their opinions. Both sides focus too much on their side. And we have big fat example on how Old Republic's Jedi Order was wrong - marriage.

 

Before Palpatine era marriage was a no-no. Love lead to attachment. Attachment lead to fear (of loss). Fear...Dark Side emotion is. And then we have New Jedi Order with GM Luke S. Married to Mara Jade. They have son. Jedi Leia Organa married, three kids. Corran Horn also married. Jacen Solo married. Damn, almost whole Jedi Order have a spouse of some kind. And yet they can face numerous threats and remain on the LS.

 

Ah, don't forget about Cade Skywalker. Former Jedi, Sith for some time, he used Dark Powers to get rid of a rakghoul infestation and cured himself and a companion.

 

So - it IS possible to master both LS and DS at the same time. And it would be true balance everyone seeks. Balance within you, not between two factions.

 

As seen that way - there is MASSIVE imbalance in favor of Jedi. Last days of Old Republic. Thousands of Jedi and only a few Sith (Palpatine, Tyranus, Maul to name them). Jedi prophecy was right about Anakin - he DID brought balance. Not when he killed Palpatine. When he turned Sith and helped assasinate remainig Jedi.

 

Remember original saga? We knew two Sith: Emperor and Vader vs two Jedi - Yoda and OB1.

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Did you play the consular? The first known conflict was the Force Wars and it was started by Rajivari.

 

Actually, Master Rajivari didn't start the Force Wars. Not all of them and also not the first. There is a heroic quest in Kaleth you probably played (Chamber of Speeches): You recover the data of one of two great lords of Kaleth.

 

Avamavarash, the Warrior-Poet: sponsor of the arts and lover of many women; he fought wars and built monuments to his peoples glory

 

Maravada the Silent: philosopher and recluse; his reign was a time of peace and learning

 

 

So, obviously, there were wars on Tython before the Master Rajivari. The Jedi wouldn't tolerate a Warrior-Poet among them and Rajivari's followers were defeated soon after his death.

 

(I would put the formation of the Jedi Order and the following wars close ot the end of the Jedi's time on Tython. Rajivari and the other masters don't mention Ashla and Bogan and what they say seems very close to modern Jedi thinking.)

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Quote: One of these Tho Yor landed near the Tythos Ridge, and would come to be known as Kaleth. The philosophers, calling themselves the Je'daii Order, established a stone structure over the massive ship, encasing it away within their new temple. Above all other temples on the world, Kaleth was the most important as it served as the meeting place of Je'daii leaders and a convocation center for the entire Order. Kaleth was where critical matters arose, where decisions were made and judgement rendered on behalf of the entire Order. For this reason, when the Despot War erupted in the Tython system, the forces converged on Kaleth during the climatic close of the war.[2]

 

At all times a Je'daii Temple Master served as steward of the facility and oversaw its functions. In 25,793 BBY Master Kora Ryo, a Twi'lek, was the Temple's overseer.[2] After years of study and peace, the Force Wars erupted between members of the first Jedi High Council and the heretical Master Rajivari. Rajivari and his followers holed up in the Temple of Knowledge as their former brother and sister Jedi converged on them. While Rajivari fled, his followers all perished leaving behind only data files containing their final moments.[1] At the conclusion of the war the Jedi Order abandoned Tython, leaving Kaleth and the other temples to crumble.[1]

 

Despite this, other Force-wielding civilizations from the nearby worlds in the system would attempt to recolonize Tython. Taking up occupancy in the old Temple of Knowledge, Kaleth became a city of sorts, with each successive government attempting and failing to bring Kaleth back to its heyday. Two such rulers were the Forceful Lord Maravada the Silent and later Avamarivash the Warrior-Poet. Despite their different ruling styles and ideals, both their reigns eventually came to an end and the city remained in ruin, their legacies sealed away within the Chamber of Speech.[1]

 

So, first there was Kaleth. Then there was Rajivari. THEN came those two Lords you mentioned. Thank you. Oh, BTW, the Despot War had NOTHING to do with the Force except that the Je'daii foresaw that Hadiya being in control would be bad. Hadiya was NOT a Force user. The reason Rajivari sounds like modern day Jedi: 1- in universe reason, he's been listening in on the returned Jedi. 2: Real reason - how many fans would have been "HUH?!" if he started talking about Bogan and Ashla?

 

On Revan:

 

He is NOT a master of either Light or Dark ANYMORE. Revan, by the time you meet him on the Foundry, is completely insane.."I have become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." "See the power of the Force in balance." Paraphrase: "I am a Jedi who is about to slaughter half the galaxy to create peace." Er... Right. That is completely normal, balanced, thoughtful... Uh huh. He's not only playing right into the emperor's hands (because the Emperor needs a sacrifice of billions in order to become fully immortal, so guess what Revan is about to do? The REAL reason for the strike team - they were supposed to lose but delay Revan until the ritual was ready.That may not be cannon but it is just. so. obvious.) He's about to slaughter billions including countless people on the Republic as well as the Empire (because the Je'daii had Sith members. 21,000 years later and that blood has to have gone somewhere...) He also uses Knight powers until halfway through and then switches to Inquisitor. He can't seem to decide if he is a Jedi, a Sith, or something else entirely. Personally I think his personality has fragmented...

 

Edited by Silimaa
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So, first there was Kaleth. Then there was Rajivari. THEN came those two Lords you mentioned. Thank you. Oh, BTW, the Despot War had NOTHING to do with the Force except that the Je'daii foresaw that Hadiya being in control would be bad. Hadiya was NOT a Force user. The reason Rajivari sounds like modern day Jedi: 1- in universe reason, he's been listening in on the returned Jedi. 2: Real reason - how many fans would have been "HUH?!" if he started talking about Bogan and Ashla?

 

Okay, I see your point. Still, in another article it says:

 

In the ensuing decade, the balance of the Je'daii Order was shattered. Two splinter groups emerged, one which held the Ashla as the main power of good in the universe, and another whose members found power only in the Bogan. The light-siders, led by Je'daii Masters Rajivari, Garon Jard, Cala Brin and Ters Sendon, founded a new group known as the Jedi Order and deemed that they would only use their powers for the protection of the weak and disenfranchised. From this group, Master Rajivari broke away and formed a dissident group of dark siders who called themselves the True Dark Sons of Tython. Building an army of dark side monstrosities, Rajivari and his followers seized the Great Temple of Kaleth and attempted to defeat the Jedi Order. In a tumultuous conflict known as the Force Wars, former allies were pitted against each other and all that the Je'daii Order had become was torn asunder.[3]

 

In 25,793 BBY the war had raged for nearly a decade, leaving the planet a ruined waste.[8] Following the defeat of Rajivari's forces and other dissidents like him, the Je'daii Order was finished; the Jedi Order standing in its place. Having witnessed the destructive power of the dark side first hand with the ruination of their homeworld, a large group of Jedi set out from Tython to settle other worlds far from the Deep Core, eventually establishing a headquarters on the far-flung world Ossus with the help of Jedi Master Odan-Urr.[9]

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order#The_Force_Wars

 

 

If that is correct, there were conflicts between Ashla and Bogan followers before Rajivari.

 

If I understand the article correctly, they didn't master both sides. They tried to achieve balance by not using one side to much.

 

"In keeping with the balance of the Force, it was vital that each Je'daii be monitored and assessed of their actions to ensure they were neither too entrenched in the light or the darkness. Within the Order, straying too far to either extreme meant exile to one of Tython's dual moons for meditation and reflection."

 

So no chance to meditate on the deeper mysteries of the dark side. And also no chance on really becoming commune with the light side. I can see this working for a while. You have to balance both sides out constantly.

 

But ultimatly you probably reach a point where someone say:

 

"We should use our powers to help others." and another one says "I want to use my powers to rule over others." To keep balance with the Force would allow neither.

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The EU has to conform to his vision.

 

So you really want to ride THAT train? ^^^^

 

TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"

 

LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII–IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

 

Nothing post-RotJ is Lucas's vision, according to that right there. And if taken to its ultimate conclusion, nothing pre-PT is Lucas's vision, either.

 

Now.... from Leland Chee's blog (this is a gist wording since the blogs on starwars.com are down for reworking) :

 

C-Canon is the vision of Star Wars beyond the movies. It's the vision of the other authors in the expanded universe.

 

So, one more time. How does the Expanded Universe have to fit in with Lucas's vision?

 

Now, for the record, Vader coming back was an "Infinities" story, not Canon. But then, Dark Empire gets retconned in that statement as well. And so does everything else post-RotJ because he says it's not at all how he would have done it. He says right there that it's not his vision.

 

I expected better from you, Prof.

 

I read the rest of your post, btw. I just wanted to point that part out to you. Your argument is flawed.

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So you really want to ride THAT train? ^^^^

 

So your argument is defeated and you are trying to fall back to hyperbole rather than admit you were wrong... Here we go.

 

Nothing post-RotJ is Lucas's vision, according to that right there. And if taken to its ultimate conclusion, nothing pre-PT is Lucas's vision, either.

 

*buzzer*

 

That quote was taken out of context. George Lucas was asked what he considered when MAKING FILMS it was from a Star Log magazine. Chee clarified that statement by saying that Star Wars is one flowing continuity and it must conform to Lucas' vision. He explained that Lucas did not decide that there could be nothing after Episode VI or that those things didn't happen, just that he did not consider them while making films. This makes sense because those things didn't even exist when he was making the films.

 

Now.... from Leland Chee's blog (this is a gist wording since the blogs on starwars.com are down for reworking) :

 

No. That is a blatant lie. Leland Chee has never said that.

 

I read the rest of your post, btw. I just wanted to point that part out to you. Your argument is flawed.

 

You are lying and intentionally twisting things to try to create an argument. No. You are wrong. End of discussion.

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So your argument is defeated and you are trying to fall back to hyperbole rather than admit you were wrong... Here we go.

 

 

 

*buzzer*

 

That quote was taken out of context. George Lucas was asked what he considered when MAKING FILMS it was from a Star Log magazine. Chee clarified that statement by saying that Star Wars is one flowing continuity and it must conform to Lucas' vision. He explained that Lucas did not decide that there could be nothing after Episode VI or that those things didn't happen, just that he did not consider them while making films. This makes sense because those things didn't even exist when he was making the films.

 

 

 

No. That is a blatant lie. Leland Chee has never said that.

 

 

 

You are lying and intentionally twisting things to try to create an argument. No. You are wrong. End of discussion.

 

No. Wrong. As soon as the blogs are back up, I'll post a link for you to the specific blog entry. You should know it, yourself. It's strange that you don't, and that you accuse me of lying because I found it first. lol

 

Open your mind some, and stop putting forward your opinion as fact. You are not George Lucas or Leland Chee.

 

Pretty chicken move, though. Accusing me of lying and then running. lol

Edited by Captain_Zone
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