An honest evaluation of the current design team (no QQ)

[MoMeter]

Warzones are a zerg fest. When do you ever get a 1v1 fight without someone jumping in? What is fun about 5 on 1? I want 1v1. It's basically a mini game that rewards gear. There is no risk, no loss, and you gain when you lose. We shouldn't be forced into an instanced PVP. There is no incentive to even go to ilum anymore. I use to wait at Center, que for warzones, and wait and pray for an enemy to come by for a good ol' 1v1 fight. But that was rare. If instance PVP is all we are going to get, then the pvp community will decline rapidly.

 

Ehh I can understand if your vision of PvP has more 1v1 duels, and that's your taste, by all means. It's just that PvP is generally based on group play and most definitely in this game, even if it's not quite up to spec yet. I'll admit though, it would be cool to have some system of queing up for 1v1 fights with the enemy faction or even people in your own faction, although that would probably have a big affect on Warzone que times.

 

I think this community by far has some of the most intelligent and helpful players (albeit mixed in with a bunch of guys who are going to complain about everything) I have seen, it just seems like the dev team hasn't really paid as much attention to it as they should have

[hargrave]

Yeah i dont get how you can go and say to your customer your waiting on technology? in the meantime pay us while you wait? That was a really bad thing to say to your customer i cant believe they didnt realize that. Imagine if i was selling you a car and said hey we dont have a steering wheel but were waiting on steering wheels use this joystick to drive your car in the meantime. Would you buy that car lol?

 

wait till most people realize that thier not getting thier free month till june and your bieng charged this month. Call tors billing youll all see lol. Free month is in june from what i was told on the phone

 

Alot of points and any sane mind recognises them. Personally I've unsubbed, I'll check out gw2 as on paper it offers what I want. I believe honestly they didn't think PvP that important for revenue, maybe it isn't; with games released over the next months subs will then tell.

 

I wish further development well, I think the game engine subsequently chosen because PvP wasn't recognised initially is a limiting factor - awaiting technology has been quoted, it doesnt handle more than a score of players well.

 

I'll keep an eye on things but see nothing keeping me here, I've enjoyed playing, but not in my top marks category. Warhammer bombed but I played it a long time and was in great guilds with some fantastic RvR PvP. But eh maybe all these games have shelf life, there's so many now.

[Gungan]

1.2 lowered my TTD by 60%. It is not a giant epeen zergfest entirely based on gear. Grats.

[lexiekaboom]

Remember that my point isn't that PVP is bad or PVP is good. I haven't unscrubed, I don't think the game "sucks" and I'm not threatening to leave if nothing changes. I'm not trying to look at the current state of PVP vs. my expectations, but instead I'm looking at PVP vs. the expectations of the dev team, as best they have been communicated to me.

 

I really don't like Halo, for example. But bungie were very clear about the game they were trying to make and they hit every point they were going for. My personal opinion of the game is irrelevant; they are a great team who can deliver on goals.

 

With the PVP team here the exact opposite is true; I love the game they are trying to create. They just can't seem to create it.

 

I bet someone else would have more success.

[hellczar]

At release, PVP gear was better and easier to obtain then PVE gear at the same level up until 50. At the same time, high end PVE gear was much better for PVP then high end PVP gear. This directly contracts the stated design goals.

 

The pre 50 gear was Horribly spaced at launch. Armor was only available at levels 20/40 had primarily PvE stats and no PvP stats. Unless you stripped and ripped weapon mods , which was a costly and time consuming task, you got almost no expertise pre 50. Essentialy there was no PvP gear pre 50 just gear you could buy with PvP tokens.

[Yakito]

So we get bosses that have nothing else but enrage timer, we get healer nerfs cos the dev team can't come up with ANYTHING else that's actually fun and make the bosses more challenging. We get PVE nerfs for PVP and vice versa. We get some crappy justifications every single Q&A is about upcoming features with a template response:

"It's on our list but there's no ETA for it yet, maybe in the near/far future".

 

Yeah... everything is on that damn list, but not a single thing has an actual date, not even "soon" any more. It's simply "yeah... we're gonna hype you up and then make you wait, just like we did with TOR release, have fun, pathetic customer. "

Edited April 27, 2012 by Parali
rude

[Lugh]

Crowd control moves that do THOUSANDS of Damage. Is Fail.

 

Claiming that there is such a thing as Range, when there isn't as all the melee classes have a close, pull, leap or whatever so that ALL your fights are in melee range anyway.

 

Leap Kill, Leap kill, pull kill, etc. If you can hit me for 6k damage from then maximum range I can START casting there is a serious imbalance going on... and that that 6k damage will also kill anyone within 8 meters of me is ridiculous.

 

Survivability is next to zero for most range classes v any melee. The only ranged class that has a chance v any melee is a gunslinger, and then only if the melee is mentally challenged. As they can retreat and fire some moves that do damage and help them to Kite, however ineffectually.

 

CC discrepancy between republic and Empire. Watch pvp sometime the Empire players seem to take forever to fill up any republic player's resolved bar and yet in reverse the exact opposite occurs.

 

Let's add in that 6, 9, 15, 20seconds damage reductions and immunities in PvP are also Fail. Your healer gets a bubble that POPS on the first fart you waft in their direction. Or a reactive heal that cannot keep up...

Edited April 27, 2012 by Lugh

[vimm]

I could give 2 sarlac pits about "open world PvP'.

 

Its one of those phrases people throw around a lot when they envision the ultimate PvP scenario. Bases falling! People dying! Ships crashing!

 

In reality most gamers simply want to pop in and play and then get out. That's why WZs are so popular. The truth of the matter is a small sub culture is really hooked on "world PvP" but they are vocal.

 

I would hate to see Bioware putting a ton of effort into trying to "fix" open world PvP when the player culture won't drive it.

 

Do I want to see a full system like Illum that has ships and walkers and bases? Yes, I think that would be cool if the rewards are there and the engine can handle it.

 

Problem is the engine can't do it and there are no rewards for it. This game simply doesn't have the sub culture to support large, opened world PvP. Stop begging for it like its going to happen. The cold, harsh reality is that many gamers don't care about it.

 

No, warzones are popular because that's the only way to get PvP.

[Neamocoob]

just give everyone a one hit kill button. We can go Nintendo up in here:wea_03: I love pvp more than anything in a star wars theme based game. I was never much of a gamer until soe and now tor. All i read is negative feed back and I think ToR staff do a good job at listening; a little to good of a job listening. However, I don't want a pre-cu epic update to happen that will destroy the game play for me once again. Do expansions, forget the updating style that introduces flavors and unwanted add in's. Classes would be great way to balance out some pvp content, the more classes the better choice and better mix in pvp. Redefine skill trees, calling the current tree's advance is an overstatement. Most star wars players are older people that can understand abstract thought and complex understanding. If the children don't like it, make a server just for them and over sized buttons for them to push.

[Lugh]

just give everyone a one hit kill button. We can go Nintendo up in here:wea_03: I love pvp more than anything in a star wars theme based game. I was never much of a gamer until soe and now tor. All i read is negative feed back and I think ToR staff do a good job at listening; a little to good of a job listening. However, I don't want a pre-cu epic update to happen that will destroy the game play for me once again. Do expansions, forget the updating style that introduces flavors and unwanted add in's. Classes would be great way to balance out some pvp content, the more classes the better choice and better mix in pvp. Redefine skill trees, calling the current tree's advance is an overstatement. Most star wars players are older people that can understand abstract thought and complex understanding. If the children don't like it, make a server just for them and over sized buttons for them to push.

This game was FINE before they introduced expertise (as failed concept) and arguements could be made for something resembling balance outside of one or two different abilities that were just sadly out of balance.

 

1.2 destroyed this game for everyone not a marauder or a juggernaut or a PT. And Operative /smuggler healers...

[delano]

This game was FINE before they introduced expertise (as failed concept) and arguements could be made for something resembling balance outside of one or two different abilities that were just sadly out of balance.

 

1.2 destroyed this game for everyone not a marauder or a juggernaut or a PT. And Operative /smuggler healers...

 

In what way did they ruin the game for everyone besides operatives? They didn't do anything at all to operatives...I still get hit with 3-4k hits, but can't put out nearly as much damage as people with ranged.

[RobNightfall]

The OP is dead on, the current PvP development team has missed most of its stated goals and appears to be doing nothing to meet them. I too am testing GW2 this weekend and if I enjoy that game I'll be gone from SWTOR in short order.

[The_Bucket]

I would love to see open world PvP get love. I miss the DAoC days.

[LancelotOC]

TBH it seems like they are definatly trying just fumbling a lot. I think in due time this game will blossom.

 

Oh and the probable reason they announced free month in march then said they'd give it if you were subscribed in June is because they need high subscriber numbers on the quarterly financials.

[anticept]

Yeah i dont get how you can go and say to your customer your waiting on technology? in the meantime pay us while you wait? That was a really bad thing to say to your customer i cant believe they didnt realize that. Imagine if i was selling you a car and said hey we dont have a steering wheel but were waiting on steering wheels use this joystick to drive your car in the meantime. Would you buy that car lol?

 

wait till most people realize that thier not getting thier free month till june and your bieng charged this month. Call tors billing youll all see lol. Free month is in june from what i was told on the phone

 

I´ve got my free month starting in 21days so 50/50ish with may and june.

[anticept]

The pre 50 gear was Horribly spaced at launch. Armor was only available at levels 20/40 had primarily PvE stats and no PvP stats. Unless you stripped and ripped weapon mods , which was a costly and time consuming task, you got almost no expertise pre 50. Essentialy there was no PvP gear pre 50 just gear you could buy with PvP tokens.

 

And that´s why 10-49 is balanced there isn´t any "ONE STAT" to make it pvp anyone with max level gear is gonna have an slight edge on hps and at 40+ on damage done/healing/survivability if they keep their gear updated if not they are gonna be as squishy as a lvl 10 with no top end skills.

[nskeen]

I was a fan boy when this game first came out always defedning how amazing the voice acting and PvE the game had.

 

Now that I've actuallyed played to 50 -- I can only say that the only redemingly quality this game had was it's pvp.

 

I have fun but I feel like it's in DEPSITE of what the current "pvp development" team is doing.

 

It really feels like a quality team balanced the pvp before the game launched (maybe a few tweaks needed) but the current team is just throwing darts at a board blindfolded with no clue as to what target they are trying to hit.

 

I really don't want to be their guinea pig.

 

I

[Sobkiewwicz]

Nice post.

Given the attention of the game at launch, you'd expect a little better thought into how PVP is going to work longer term. The gimicks of a WZ just wear out (sooner rather than later). Open world PVP needs guild/alliance/etc goals and invididual PVP needs better balance & statistics.

[lexiekaboom]

I have fun but I feel like it's in DEPSITE of what the current "pvp development" team is doing.

 

It really feels like a quality team balanced the pvp before the game launched (maybe a few tweaks needed) but the current team is just throwing darts at a board blindfolded with no clue as to what target they are trying to hit.

 

I

 

That's a lot of what I'm getting at. Can you even imagine how good this game would be in 2 months if they got rid of the current team and brought in some fresh talent? The ground work is fantastic, but we have a group with no clear direction or ability to deliver trying to "polish". They are just making things worse.

[Digtahk]

I could give 2 sarlac pits about "open world PvP'.

 

Its one of those phrases people throw around a lot when they envision the ultimate PvP scenario. Bases falling! People dying! Ships crashing!

 

In reality most gamers simply want to pop in and play and then get out. That's why WZs are so popular. The truth of the matter is a small sub culture is really hooked on "world PvP" but they are vocal.

 

I would hate to see Bioware putting a ton of effort into trying to "fix" open world PvP when the player culture won't drive it.

 

Do I want to see a full system like Illum that has ships and walkers and bases? Yes, I think that would be cool if the rewards are there and the engine can handle it.

 

Problem is the engine can't do it and there are no rewards for it. This game simply doesn't have the sub culture to support large, opened world PvP. Stop begging for it like its going to happen. The cold, harsh reality is that many gamers don't care about it.

 

Do yourselves a favour a re-read what the person above wrote, its probably the only sensible post I have read on these boards in the last 4 months......Open world PvP is a myth- some kind of elusive holy grail that people will tell their grandchildren about but which will never actually happen in the way we all dream it should. Given the sort of communities that play mmos i sometimes doubt whether it is even worth attempting putting a system in place at all.

[Squatdog_nz]

On one hand, casual PVP is still pretty fun and a lot of classes have interesting mechanics etc.

 

On the other, some of the the developers are flat-out incompetent.

 

Case in point; Ilum was great fun on high-population servers (Swiftsure still runs 'Ilum Tuesdays'), but the design team simply lacked the imagination to balance it for lower population servers, which would have been the simple expedient of adding a reason for people to be there ie: more crate spawns. Instead, they arbitrarily abandoned the entire battleground through lack of ideas.

 

Then there is the issue of some jaw-droppingly ignorant and misguided quotes by the developers:

 

Georg Zoeller -

 

If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people — yes, there aren’t many Operatives — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun. We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives, then that might be part of that, and they will be not as likely to re-subscribe.

 

There you have it; teams of Operatives were stun-locking people and causing them to QUIT THE GAME!

 

This presumably explains why Concealmeny Operatives were nerfed into the ground in 1.2, which included nerfs that weren't even included in the patch notes(energy generation, reduced knockdown from Hidden Strike)...

[Tremont]

IMO 95% of time and money went to PvE, which explains the poor PvP in this game. SWTOR was never meant to be a PvP centric MMO, and that is why PvP is bad.

[Mookind]

Nobody thinks class inbalances are a problem when they can murder players with impunity. The class is not OP, they are simply that good. Problems then arise because of the lopsided nature of the current class populations and Bioware's fear of alienating players who's choosen class represents 50%+ of the subs.

 

A perfect example of this was their repeated, and malicious, nerfings of the Concealment Operative class.. who according to the forums was hugely OP and very FOTM.. yet represented a tiny fraction of the overall population. They were safe to hammer away at, and were brought down to the level where next to nobody plays them anymore. Meanwhile, it took MONTHS for Bioware to address the infinate mana pool issue that Sorcs and Sages had. This class represented a massive chunk of the overall population and had to be approached with kid gloves.

 

Class balance is never going to exist when Devs are afraid of their own playerbase.

 

If anything you just said was true they would not have made PvP sorc unusable. Healer or Deeps

 

People need to understand there is a difference between SKILL CAP and Balance. If a toon has a low skill cap (like sorc) it will seem a little bit OP because any one can do it it pretty *********** well. Most of the other classes have a much higher skill cap. Including the mara, which is why they seemed "underpowered" in biowares retarded metric system that they don't test pvp with actual pvp players. (No bioware, pvp players do not want to level a toon on a test server)

 

But they only seem under powered because you have to actually be good to play the class. The only proper way to test PvP balance is to give the best players on your servers as month to play with it with best in slot items. Listen to them. They know what the **** they are talking about, you just have to give them the toon. You can't expect them to level one up for you, then throw them a title like they r 12 yr olds.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Parali
rude

[rjkishida]

OP is absolutely correct except on one point. There is no way to save the game with the current design team. players should just move on because with the same people, only more of the same will happen. guild wars 2, diablo 3, and tera coming out soon folks. don't waste your time on this failure folks, lots of newer stuff that hopefully is put together by people with a clue out there.

[Slavequo]

...

They are so low on the pvp totem pole of games they have to look up to see the bottom, so pathetic.

 

I think that the warzones we have and the gameplay in general is not THAT bad, but your sentence feels so true...

 

When I heard the pvp team comes partially from WAR I lost most of the expectations I had.

I played WAR from release for 5 months and I just hope TOR won't end up the same way.