Mistaking OP classes for good players.

[bennyhana]

Out of all the classes I've played I feel like Sniper/Gunslinger and Marauder/Sentinel are by far the two "OP" PvP ACs. Very high DPS, high survivability, and good CC. This is probably why most people get the impression that these classes are OP. A halfway decent Mara/Sent can chew through several players before dying. The same with Sniper/Gunslinger. Played intelligently they can mop the floor with almost any AC.

 

As far as control in PvP goes, it's hands down Juggernaut/Guardian. This is part of the reason people think these dudes are OP. With the broken resolve system, a Jugg/Guard can literally toss you around like a ragdoll. Powertech/Vanguard is a close second.

 

Go play any non-50 WZ and you'll be shocked at the number of Sniper/GS and Mara/Sent players leveling up. There's a reason for that and it's not because they're extra skilled at playing those classes.

 

I believe it's more a flavor of the week kind of thing. Not because of the class being "op" but because somebody "said" they were. And when more people roll one certain class, the more other people fight that class. The more people fight that class, the more they get beat by that class. It's not because they're op it's just the class that 60% of the wz is playing.

[aRtFuL]

Agreed with OP.

 

The essence of the problem is, medicore players would not have the knowledge and the insight enough to recognise when others are playing "good", because they can't read the flow of the game, and don't have the ability or patience to analyse it in detail (maybe they just don't care enough to learn but just want to beat other players up and feel good about themselves, who knows).

 

It is like asking a mathematically inept person to understand mathematically the concept of Quantum Mechanics or what are Derivatives in economics (or even, like the movie, the concept of Moneyball).

 

To me this entire debate is very similar to some people saying martial arts are useless and big people will always beat up small people just because they are stronger/fitter, without having the knowledge of the subtle intricacies of the fighting arts and psychology.

Edited April 23, 2012 by aRtFuL

[Numerii]

I believe it's more a flavor of the week kind of thing. Not because of the class being "op" but because somebody "said" they were. And when more people roll one certain class, the more other people fight that class. The more people fight that class, the more they get beat by that class. It's not because they're op it's just the class that 60% of the wz is playing.

 

Same thing was said about Sorcerers. We still took a nerf. Now most people laugh at the AC. I still do quite fine though, so don't worry too much when you're nerfed. If you're skilled, you'll overcome it. If not, you'll be back to getting your *** handed to you.

[Moosestick]

Then we're back to the beginning and simply rolling a marauder took me from being able to hold my own against most classes as an operative to being able to faceroll anyone I meet as a marauder. If it's balanced, then apparently some videogame deity saw fit to bestow upon me orders of magnitude greater skill at SWTOR.

 

Most of what you are seeing is that people have no clue how to counter marauders, yourself included it seems.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Moosestick

[cyvaris]

Funny, since the forum community seems to think marauders are harder to play than operatives.

 

Here's the thing, you actually CAN be better at some classes as opposed to others. I for one cannot play anything but my main Sentinel in PvP. Why? Because nothing else "feels" right, nothing else just flows that way for me. Maybe its the same for you, maybe the force has gifted you with awesome Marader skills.

 

Or maybe you are just one of the thousands of other whiners grasping at straws to make yourself and your tears feel validated.

[bennyhana]

Same thing was said about Sorcerers. We still took a nerf. Now most people laugh at the AC. I still do quite fine though, so don't worry too much when you're nerfed. If you're skilled, you'll overcome it. If not, you'll be back to getting your *** handed to you.

 

There are sorcs I can pummel and there are sorcs that can stomp me, and the cycle continues

[cyvaris]

There are sorcs I can pummel and there are sorcs that can stomp me, and the cycle continues

 

^ This. I play a Sentinel the "counter" to sorcs and I STILL have trouble when I get focused by two of them. Do I think they are OP? Sure....they beat me so of COURSE they are OP.

[sauerkraut]

I think TOR has about 1.5 M subs (+ -), seems that 30k of them regularly come to the forum to cry for everything, medals, xp, too many key to push, too fast, too slow, too big, too small, OP, UP. What is it 2% or less. Bad players. Edited April 23, 2012 by sauerkraut

[ItGetsAllOver]

I believe it's more a flavor of the week kind of thing. Not because of the class being "op" but because somebody "said" they were. And when more people roll one certain class, the more other people fight that class. The more people fight that class, the more they get beat by that class. It's not because they're op it's just the class that 60% of the wz is playing.

 

If it were just people saying they were OP, people wouldn't be playing those classes in droves. They'd try it out, decided it's not for them, and they'd go back to their 50s. As it stands, tons of people are slogging through the hassle of leveling up another 50 because they're doing well on the road to 50 in PvP.

 

Part of it is just FotM, yes. Part of it is that the FotM classes are FotM for a reason.

[Wintervoid]

are you kidding? with the buff to healing that you guys got in 1.2 you are nigh unkillable with decent dps. GG dude you are the pot calling the kettle black.

 

As a Sawbones, we got some Quality of life adjustments with Upperhand stacking. Not a huge performance increase if you were good at managing your Upperhands. Our AoE got a 10% buff and ticks faster, although the recharge was increased to maintain the same HPS over time. Our free heal is a bit better, but still mainly just a filler hoping for Crits to regain energy. IMO, the big improvement was not documented. We no longer have to wait 10 seconds after Vanish to be able to heal or be healed. Once we leave stealth we can heal again. Before 1.2, if you Vanished, you were letting your team go w/o heals for 10 seconds.

 

We lost 3% crit and 2% HPs on talents (Not everyone took them, but they were in my build). Also, a bug that was corrected that let Triage heal us for 2x what it does now. This was an instant cast that healed for a decent amount as well as wiping off debuffs. This is not to mention the changes to expertise, and DPS increasing better relative to heals.

 

I would say that it is about a wash. I am a bit better group healer since the AoE heal is worth taking, but I have less personal survival due to Triage fix, some less HP and crit and losing the heal attached to Pugnacity in favor of the AoE. Although surviving and effectively healing is a bit harder now, I like the challenge now. We did not go up in power as much as the other two healers were brought down to our level.

 

With all that said, I can still survive 2-3 bad DPS, but one good DPS can at least take me out of the fight, if not kill me outright.

 

Ironically, I do not fear Marauders more then any other well played class, but I am very wary of a good concealment Operative. I know that Operatives are a bit lacking now in some areas, but from a targets point of view, they have a place taking out healers.

[bennyhana]

If it were just people saying they were OP, people wouldn't be playing those classes in droves. They'd try it out, decided it's not for them, and they'd go back to their 50s. As it stands, tons of people are slogging through the hassle of leveling up another 50 because they're doing well on the road to 50 in PvP.

 

Part of it is just FotM, yes. Part of it is that the FotM classes are FotM for a reason.

 

You bring up a good point. I from personal experience have never been steamrolled by any certain class, just by certain players. I just really thinks it boils down to how people fair against fighting certain classes. I have a problem fighting snipers, not because they are op but because I haven't figured out a successful strategy to beating them. People are so quick to throw the "op" flag whenever they get beat.

[Ghamsar]

Apparently just rolling a marauder made me a MUCH better player, because suddenly I'm doing much better than I did on my concealment operative! I mean, if the game is balanced, then a miraculous infusion of spontaneous skill is the only explanation, right?

 

 

exactly, I don't get these guys, it's beyond obvious.

 

I'm full BM GS....me and another GS and a Sage(DPS)..roll on the east turret guarded by only 1 JUG

 

we can not CC him, I'm getting off my full rotation and he's not taking any dmg, almost like he's healing himself, he's pushing people all over the place jumping and hacking away, he takes out the sorce still with Full HP,,,we are unloading on him, popping relics and Nothing. By the time I finally kit him for ANYTHING, am at 50% HP and other GS even less. The sorce comes running back and we FINALLY start dmging this JUG, but just as we try to cap the turret.......an Assain comes and takes out the other GS and I am trying my best to leg shot, slow, and DPS this SIN..but to no avail. He kills the Sage, not that it would have mattered.....THE JUG comes running back up and I'm dead in less than a sec.

 

2 GS very high DPS we are always on top, don't know the sage....but a Tank with no healer is supposed to mitigate how much exactly? i was hitting the HELL out of Him....but his HP would not move at all, it would just go up.

 

and there were NO healers I am sure. It took him less than 6 secs to dispatch the Sage.

 

NOw I'm sure he has CD that mitgate ALL DMG for like 20 secs or something......but why can he hit so Damn hard if you can't hit him for Crap?

 

Skill in CDs? Invincibility? You only have a small window to Cap STuff.....WTH are these skills doing in PvP?

[Jaxtaro]

You should read the sentence after that, it might blow your mind.

 

Because people who are the most skilled happen to always switch to the god class at the exact same time, making it the god class based on the collective skill of the players who play it.

 

Because all people who play marauders are just plain awesome.

[Lugh]

Funny, since the forum community seems to think marauders are harder to play than operatives.

 

The forum goers are often WRONG. They were ridiculous before they got buffed, and now they have enough interrupts, root on jump and other BS, That they are impossible to escape from.

 

Currently in WZs the group with the most Marauders/Sentinels wins a goodly 70% of the time. Most of the premades I've seen roll Two Marauders, and Two Healers. And that combo is insane.

[Lugh]

exactly, I don't get these guys, it's beyond obvious.

 

I'm full BM GS....me and another GS and a Sage(DPS)..roll on the east turret guarded by only 1 JUG

 

we can not CC him, I'm getting off my full rotation and he's not taking any dmg, almost like he's healing himself, he's pushing people all over the place jumping and hacking away, he takes out the sorce still with Full HP,,,we are unloading on him, popping relics and Nothing. By the time I finally kit him for ANYTHING, am at 50% HP and other GS even less. The sorce comes running back and we FINALLY start dmging this JUG, but just as we try to cap the turret.......an Assain comes and takes out the other GS and I am trying my best to leg shot, slow, and DPS this SIN..but to no avail. He kills the Sage, not that it would have mattered.....THE JUG comes running back up and I'm dead in less than a sec.

 

2 GS very high DPS we are always on top, don't know the sage....but a Tank with no healer is supposed to mitigate how much exactly? i was hitting the HELL out of Him....but his HP would not move at all, it would just go up.

 

and there were NO healers I am sure. It took him less than 6 secs to dispatch the Sage.

 

NOw I'm sure he has CD that mitgate ALL DMG for like 20 secs or something......but why can he hit so Damn hard if you can't hit him for Crap?

 

Skill in CDs? Invincibility? You only have a small window to Cap STuff.....WTH are these skills doing in PvP?

 

They are WAY too many Immune to X amount of damage / completely immunity abilities on the tank specs in PvP.

[Ancen]

Agree with OP. Refreshing to hear a rational voice here. And sad that so many people dontbunderstand this simple concept.

 

Also this game is better balan ed than most. Less so after 1.2 perhaps, but still very balanced for a new mmo.

 

I concur, good sir.

[saido]

Yep. Pre 1.5 my Merc / Hybrid could pretty much take down anything. I'd consistently get wasted by 'a' PT and fast.

 

They could grapple and speak for a charge. Decided to roll a PT. Harder than it looks. Played almost every class except for Sorc and Operative. Found the ones people say are weak, i.e Sniper to be among the better. It's a lot to do with 'good' and 'bad' rather than OP. The Sniper is more low-key but can turn battles just as well by keeping people from capping nodes.

[bennyhana]

Yep. Pre 1.5 my Merc / Hybrid could pretty much take down anything. I'd consistently get wasted by 'a' PT and fast.

 

They could grapple and speak for a charge. Decided to roll a PT. Harder than it looks. Played almost every class except for Sorc and Operative. Found the ones people say are weak, i.e Sniper to be among the better. It's a lot to do with 'good' and 'bad' rather than OP. The Sniper is more low-key but can turn battles just as well by keeping people from capping nodes.

 

/agree

[RJMazz]

Out of all the classes I've played I feel like Sniper/Gunslinger and Marauder/Sentinel are by far the two "OP" PvP ACs. Very high DPS, high survivability, and good CC. This is probably why most people get the impression that these classes are OP. A halfway decent Mara/Sent can chew through several players before dying. The same with Sniper/Gunslinger. Played intelligently they can mop the floor with almost any AC.

 

As far as control in PvP goes, it's hands down Juggernaut/Guardian. This is part of the reason people think these dudes are OP. With the broken resolve system, a Jugg/Guard can literally toss you around like a ragdoll. Powertech/Vanguard is a close second.

 

Go play any non-50 WZ and you'll be shocked at the number of Sniper/GS and Mara/Sent players leveling up. There's a reason for that and it's not because they're extra skilled at playing those classes.

 

First paragraph: Snipers don't have high survivability. They're paper with a few knockbacks. But I agree with the marauders though. I began playing sentinel for roleplay reasons. I took down three people last Voidstar match. Team had opened the door, three stragglers remain. Two were healers, but already at 50% life, they took on me first, I got 'em down by switching targets and confusing themselves on who to heal. Then the powertech tank came. Not much trouble. But the way it ended so quickly, they could have just been baddies. I blew every cooldown I had for that one, too. Used Pacify twice.

 

Second paragraph: Only Immortal Juggernauts have that much control, and they kill you like a bantha waking up. That means, very slowly.

 

Third paragraph: Forum rumors. These classes are not OP. Not IMO at least, but I could be wrong.

Edited April 23, 2012 by RJMazz

[Caelrie]

They are WAY too many Immune to X amount of damage / completely immunity abilities on the tank specs in PvP.

 

Most of those are on the mara/sent, which isn't a tank.

[TheNotorius]

Probably off-topic, but I find operatives harder to play than Marauders too...

[dufox]

Let me start by saying I'm a rage spec almost fully bm geared juggernaut. With that being said I have had plenty of good games AND plenty of bad ones. Games where I'm top dps with the most medals and not so top dps with an average amount of medals... When I get beat by a certain class a few times I don't immediately assume that certain class is op, I was simply outplayed.

 

I was a tank spec juggernaut before and after getting my *** handed to me on many occasions, I came on here and qq'ed like everyone else that does after a few bad games. After doing some research I found that people have succeeded very well with the immortal spec. I took their advice, tried it, and just couldn't figure it out. So I switched back to rage, the spec that I had pretty much been from lvl 1, so you could say I'm pretty familiar with that particular build.

 

That all being said, I get beat by the people with the same class as me, same spec as me. I get beat by every other class in the game. But I also beat every class in the game. You catch me off guard, you have your cool downs and I don't, chances are you win. Same goes for me, catching you off guard when I have my cool downs and you don't.

 

So many posts here claiming all these "op" classes when people just can't handle the fact that well... That guy/girl is simply better than me. They assume that because they are fully geared, they shouldn't get beat down just like the rest of the people in the warzone.

 

Put it simply, the game is pretty damn balanced in pvp. Start getting used to the fact that some people are better at playing this game than you are.

 

this literally screams intelligence and you have just become my forum hero.

 

the game is balanced by 1 class having their OP advantage over another class.

there are tons of variables when deciding balance and its basically impossible for 1 person to logically say 1 class is OP to all.

on a side note, you can read all the info you want but the best way to figure out how to kill a certain class is to play as the class. (so if a class annoys you, try playing as them so u know what the skill they are using against you does and how to stop it)

[namelless]

I agree with you to a certain extent. I'm usually specced sawbones and when i respec scrapper on the off occassion i am destroyed by other operatives/scoundrels simply because they're much better than me.

 

On the other hand though, i do believe there are some imbalance issues, they aren't gamebreakingly noitceable, but they are there. As it stands there is simply no reason to bring a concealment operative or a deception assassin over a darkness assassin. The tank spec simply brings much more to the table than the other two.

[alcek]

You can hide behind whatever conclusion helps you sleep at night. It won't change the fact that there's a real good possibility that you just aren't as good at playing an operative as you are a marauder.

Possible, yes. But another good call is that marauders are a bit too good atm, isn't it?

[dufox]

i gotta admit i play 11/28/2 vigilance guardian and when im in tank form i force leap, pop relic and adrenal, and then use master strike against someone who doesnt have a defensive cd on and i hit people for 2k, 2k, 5k it makes me smile

people who i do it to will always scream we are over powered but they dont know the mechanics of it.

the balance part of guardian vigilance dps is its single target burst damage. without adrenal or relic and force leap damage boost my dps is nothing more than average.

 

how to counter - DO NOT try to eat the damage for the first 5 seconds after you get leaped on. (this is usually a master strike, which you have to RUN not backtrack to get away from)

 

people say guard is OP. it is not.

i love how people think its funny when someone tries to kill a tank first. in pvp the tank is the exact opposite of pve and become virtually ineffective if everyone is hitting him instead of his team/person he is guarding. (of course 1 person needs to interupt/cc the heal) it takes a team effort to stop a team effort...