Marauder/Sentinel: How to beat us

[fungihoujo]

I like how OP only tells us how not to die- then ignores all the tools a marauder has for getting past the ways he described, and how several sections contradict others.

 

Sure, let's wait til the marauder's at 30% health to use CC- never mind a marauder will kill you five times over by that time.

[Tsaritsin]

i love the fact that we should avoid a 1v1 situatiion is described as our counter. The fact that 1v1 maruaders **** everything is the problem. This logic is epic. I wish i could just tell people, well my class is ok you just need to bring friends to kill me.

 

this ^^

[Reldan]

The thing about judging what's Overpowered at the moment is that it's all relative. If you want to say that Sent/Mara is perfectly fine right now, then that's the average power level you're saying everyone should be at. In that case, there are plenty of other classes that need some significant buffs to compete.

 

Compare the Sent/Mara to a DPS Operative. At one point the Operative had Super-Godly DPS and little or no survivability or utility as the trade-off. This, as we know, got nerfed into the ground with nothing given back. There are plenty of other ACs in similar positions where there's only one thing they do well at, and they don't do that thing in such a GODLY fashion that it makes up the difference. Sent/Mara have one thing that's GODLY and another they do really well too. That's the issue.

 

Most of the classes people are complaining about right now are the ones that blend really strong DPS with Survivability - generally because of how much of a factor armor is in this game - Tankassins, Pyrotechs, and Marauders.

 

Balance is a two-way street. I'm fine leaving Mara/Sent as they are now if Bioware cared to bring everyone else up to that level.

[obi_don]

I love the fact that we should avoid a 1v1 situatiion is described as our counter. The fact that 1v1 maruaders **** everything is the problem. This logic is epic. I wish I could just tell people, well my class is ok you just need to bring friends to kill me.

 

the fact that at least 3 people have said this in this thread as a viable strat is hilarious

[Recanter]

In a nutshell...

 

90% of the time you can't beat us.

[fungihoujo]

the fact that at least 3 people have said this in this thread as a viable strat is hilarious

 

I know, those poor marauders- having to put up with being the only class you absolutely need to bring a friend with to kill. I really feel for them, these nerf threads are so uncalled for.

[LordOfThePeople]

How to beat marauder:

 

Have a sniper friend. Tell him "hey, kill that guy"

 

Trololololololol

[Stavroz]

1. Never, EVER fill a Dual Wielder's Resolve.

 

-You say to keep CC until the marauder is at 30%- there is not a class out there that can get a marauder anywhere near 30% without CC, in fact, most can't get one that low even with CC and several lucky crits. This is faulty because you will need to use CC to survive- beating a marauder is out of the question

 

2. Avoid 1 vs 1 fights

 

-a marauder excels in group fights too, and deals damage so fast and has such good mobility- at any moment you can be in a 1v1 with a marauder... and thus dead.

 

3. NEVER KB as soon as the Marauder attacks you, unless you can position them in such a way as to knock them off a ledge or something

 

-If you don't KB, they will slow you, stun you, ravage you and eat about half your health in maybe 5 seconds. This is another 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation due to the ability of a marauder to stick on you if you don't KB/CC- which is what you're suggesting.

 

4. (If the DW is Ataru specc'ed, ignore this one) Move away from them/Interrupt when they start Ravage

 

-Enjoy interrupting their ravage without using CC, champ. Even with their snare on you though, you can indeed move away from a ravage- as long as a second marauder or anything else hasn't rooted you or you aren't CCed. You forgot to mention that marauder stealth can get you two whole swings of ravage before you pop up- often not giving someone a chance before they've been hit for up to 10k damage.

 

5. (If Shii-Cho specc'ed and you DON'T do this, then you're stupid) Kite like a mofo

 

- Kite with what exactly? We aren't supposed to use CC or KBs right away, so how do you kite someone with the best snares in the game, and 12 second gap closers? How do you get away from someone who can be dealing some of the heaviest burst in the game while moving without dropping your CC? You've said what to do- but are woefully unaware that no class can actually do what you're suggesting- and in the end, marauders never run out of steam, so they will outrun you eventually no matter what you do.

 

- You then talk about their numerous defensive CDs and utility abilities and what to do- more or less attempt to avoid engaging with the class that has the best ability in the game to keep engaged. Before pointing out that- yeah, pretty much, the only way to beat a marauder is a team effort.

 

 

 

 

 

So- we have a step by step list of things you must do to survive, know we need to use a group to beat a marauder, and know if you get marauder aggro and aren't a tank getting spam healed, you need to run even though you will die.

 

Sounds like you just wrote an operation boss guide with the multiple steps- which is fitting, because the class pretty much is an operations boss.

 

 

 

Wanna know what the guide is for defeating every single class as a marauder?

 

Stay on them, hit your damaging abilities.

This

I love how the different steps contradict each other.

Don't cc a Mara to early

And then u need to interrupt the ravage

Um ok how do I do that with out breaking the don't cc a Mara too early rule?

Easy

 

Seeing as we are told to avoid 1v1 scenarios it all makes sense!!!

Gank them with 2 sents

Damn it all makes sense now

Thnx ts we now know how to counter a mara effectively

Edited April 21, 2012 by Stavroz

[Visue]

I love the "run away" strategy.

 

So as soon as we see a maruader we need to run? Isn't that the definition of an op class? No counter other than stun and running away. Yeah, that means you are op. Don't mind the fact that marauders have multiple roots making running away a tough prospect.

 

I understand marauders. I have one. When used right there is no counter other than "run away" or "call for help!"

 

The other strategy is to group up in one big ball out of fear for the the marauder. Then guess what, aoe'd to death by other classes.

 

I guess we all need to have accountabilibuddies at the start of the match. "Bradley, you are my accountabilibuddy! Don't go running around without me or a marauder will get you!"

 

Any class whose counters are run away, stun, or make sure you 2v1 them is op...

 

 

This.

[Tsaritsin]

the fact that at least 3 people have said this in this thread as a viable strat is hilarious

 

Exactly,

 

Perhaps Bioware could let every class apart from Mara/Sent bring one of our companions along with us while we engage in this farce called PvP,

 

 

I sometimes wonder whether people even understand the word Balance in PvP, the notion that they could put forward "Bring along a friend" as a counter to a class just beggers belief tbh.

 

[Bakarus]

Im a sniper and i wreck marauders 1v1

[Raeken]

2. Avoid 1 vs 1 fights

 

This is fairly hard, as most of us try to create 1 vs 1 situations. But remember, running isn't a *****-move. It's playing smart. If you escape a Dual Wielder, you've still won because then you can go get help.

 

Hahahahahaha ...

[RoyFokker]

I love the fact that we should avoid a 1v1 situatiion is described as our counter. The fact that 1v1 maruaders **** everything is the problem. This logic is epic. I wish I could just tell people, well my class is ok you just need to bring friends to kill me.

 

Good ones were 1 v 1 everything before the current patch. The bad ones you can 1 v 1 still. It's just like what was stated previously, if you can't beat a class by random button mashing, then it's overpowered.

 

how to beat you erm ? start hacking because a good maurauder will time his god mode buffs.

 

im already see'ing 1 good maurauder takes out around 5 people before going down themselves because

 

1. there damage is stupidly high

2. they have to much survivability for a pure dps class another words god mode

 

 

dont give me this drivel the only maurauders this crap will work on are ones that cant play their class properly lol.

 

I love people who spew baseless crap like this. They have no god mode and they can time whatever they want, I still kill them no matter what character I'm on. It works on the ones who play their class the best, it works on the ones who play like crap. You just don't want to have to actually play your class.

[TheEvilEeyore]

Please let me know how an operative healer is supposed to survive and kite a mara/sent with our melee ranged stun (which could fill the resolve bar, which is a no no for your guide), our 10m mez which gets broken by damage constantly (also fills the resolve bar quite a bit), and our 10m ranged snare. No KBs, no ranged stuns, no long ranged roots/snares, and only one real choice to to interrupt with. Also, you need to rely on hots and instants to heal yourself because they have so many ways to interrupt you, good luck getting a cast off. Your only chance to outheal their damage is to let them get you to 30% with your hots rolling and your 2 crappy defensive CDs and spam surgical probe while hope they don't stun you.

 

If any op healer gets caught without their CC breaker, they are dead. I know some classes counter others, but ops healers have no chance currently to offer any resistance to a marauder/sentinel ripping their face off. You become totally reliant on you team babysitting you, or you die a fast death.

 

I'll wait for your reply, Mr. Smartguy.

 

I just thought i would put this out there.. as a sage healer we are basically in the same boat. we have 1 snare that lasts for 7 seconds but is on a 15 second cd. as our stuns are bad for your guide that means i have 7 seconds to kite you IF you don't just have force jump.. oh sprint away you say? nah we got a force choke for that ****.. run away after force choke? nah we got a snare for that.

 

Only difference is sages have NO defensive cd's of any kind. and we are wearing light armor.

 

I don't even think this problem is limited to sentinel/marauders. A good guardian is an insane amount of damage. with 1200 expertise i got hit for 4700 with an execute today.. how is that balanced? you can use it every 5 seconds and its instant cast. that means if you let yourself fall below 30% hp at any time your instantly dead. so essentially the fight starts 70/100 respectively. because once you do hit that threshold they just have to hit their win button. and if that doesn't just kill you they have 4 other instant cast spells that hit almost as hard.

 

All of the OP's suggestions is good advice. except that every single one of his points is easily countered.

 

the idea of not stunning a maurader means you die faster as a healer. we have to stun you just to get away from your crazy *** damage long enough to get our EPIC 2k heal off .

[jediatticus]

i only have a shadow at 50 but even a good sent/mara is easy to take down if you know what you're doing. whether you actually kill them depends on if their stealth is on cd. but assassins/shadows need more credit as the true 1v1 kings.

[me_unknown]

i think the op must be ironic.

 

 

 

it must be so. i mean anything else would be too stupid to be true. not only the "don't fight us 1on1" or "don'T fill our resolve bar". overall. if i read that post i would come to the conclusion sents/marauders ARE overpowered. he is actually explaining how much overpowered they are.

 

but luckily i don't rely on that post to make my opinion.

[Zintiel]

While the op's post may not be the most thought out thing in the world, most people's problems with marauders/sentinels is exactly what he is saying: they just don't understand mara/sent abilities

 

A friend of mine with a fully PvP geared marauder heard me talking about how marauders were easy to beat. I play a powertech. Naturally we dueled. I stayed in his dead zone the whole fight (too far to hit, too close to charge. Admittedly the duel didn't really account for him not being able to use his last stand ability since it ended too soon, but honestly had he popped it, I would've just stunned him through it.

 

While it may not be easy for this 1 vs 1 scenario to always happen in a warzone, I think if anything marauders/sentinels are weaker on their own than in a group. They are potentially very deadly if ignored but you can say that about any DPS class, even the noobs still standing in one spot firing long cast time missiles.

[LosMartonos]

The real counter to marauders/sentinel AND assassin/shadow is different for each class when it comes to 1 vs. 1, unfortunately that'd require everyone to know how to play their classes, that of course is impossible, so they QQ of the forums.

 

Here is something that's usually true: The mara/sent will dictate the fight, not you. Against a sage/sorc ofc you're dictating the fight, he's reacting. Now, against a sent/mara, he dictates the fight, you react. Read your skills again, read all of his skills, turn your brain on, and win.

[sauerkraut]

OK. On this forum the real question would be something like this. "I am real bad in PvP and afraid to get killed, how can i beat good players, stay alive all the time and always win?" P.S I already play > insert OP class here < and still keep dieing.

[Bnol]

Honestly, I will continue to say till the end of time that Mara/Sent AT THIS PRESENT TIME is not OVERpowered. There are very important utility tradeoffs that we accept in order to get our godly DPS and our high survivability.

 

Yes, I said that. GODLY dps. There's no denying that. Our survivability is also great, that is also undeniable.

 

But that's where you have to start thinking. Mara/Sent is NOT overpowered on it's own. It's when you throw a pocket healer into the mix that things get screwy.

 

Mara/Sent are overpowered because they have great dps, great survivability, and also bring powerful (and unique) group utility (predation and bloodthirst) to the table. Your team is at a huge disadvantage if you don't bring a Mara/Sent for just the group utility alone. Something has to give (damage/survivability/utility) for Maras/Sents to be balanced.

[Thundartwothree]

People dont want to learn. Hell 90% of QQ posts about any AC after 1.2 fail to take into account the change to Expertise and how its screwed up the entire DPS/Healing meta game. Most people just want to tunnel vision one or 2 ACs as OP, put on blinders to the real source of the problem and QQ away.

[fungihoujo]

TLDR version of OP's post

 

"Marauders are worth two of any other class, so never fight one alone. Make sure to CC them when they're about to kill you, but whatever you do don't CC them when they're killing you because then you can't kill them when, theoretically, you have dealt the damage to kill them.

 

Kite them- without using CC or knockbacks since those fill resolve- and once you have your team you can deal with a marauder.

 

PS- marauders are fine and don't need a nerf."

 

Mmmk, OP, I'm not sure you're helping your case. Can you try that again explaining how to beat a marauder without needing multiple people.

[hyuplee]

Well if up to this point you still believe Op's strategy is valid and his depiction of marauder is accurate, you better help yourself to another game. This forum is infested with trolls.

[Xerain]

how to beat you erm ? start hacking because a good maurauder will time his god mode buffs.

 

im already see'ing 1 good maurauder takes out around 5 people before going down themselves because

 

1. there damage is stupidly high

2. they have to much survivability for a pure dps class another words god mode

 

 

dont give me this drivel the only maurauders this crap will work on are ones that cant play their class properly lol.

 

You saw a marauder 1v5 what? A bunch of level 30's? If a 50 marauder is 1v5'ing 5 other 50's then it's not the marauder that's Op'ed. IT's the 5 people that are absolutely terrible. 2 dps chain CC'ing a marauder can take one out like it's nothing.

[Pubix]

Here is a compilation of posts explaining the problem with marauders.

 

The problem with marauders is they just have too much. Too much of what? Everything

 

Despite being the highest DPS Adv. Class in the game they have far to much utility and defensive capabilities built in.

 

Undying Rage is probably the biggest offender. Most marauders will argue that losing 50% of their current health is a huge cripple. What is 50% of your health when you only have 500 HP? Nothing at that point, It just allows a guaranteed 5 seconds of invincibility.

 

Saber ward is the next largest offender. What it does it pretty much gimp you (As a Powertech) for 12 seconds. With another 50% Melee and Ranged Defense the Marauder will pretty much deflect any rail shot that you have causing you to hold off using this ability for 12 seconds. Your remaining damaging abilities will also be cut down in damage by 25% (Dots, Rocket Punch, Flame Burst, Thermal Detonator).

 

I wouldn't have such a beef with cloak of pain given that either they removed the second effect of it or also added the second effect to Energy shield. 20% Damage reduction for 6 seconds doesn't seem like it helps much until the second effect kicks in and it lasts 30 seconds. The worst part? It has a 60 second cooldown.

 

Predation is a rough ability to deal with. Not only will it make the enemy marauder able to dance circles around you but it serves as a defensive cooldown as well as an escape. 10% defense looks small on paper until they can deflect your rail shot completely.

 

Obfuscate is a huge pain to deal with. Luckily most Marauders (All the bad ones) will often not even use this skill. 90% accuracy reduction of their target for 6 seconds is a massive, massive crutch.

 

If it wasn't bad enough that a marauder needed an unnecessary amount of defensive cooldowns they also have the ability to just take off if things don't go their way with Force Camouflage. This coupled with predation is almost a guaranteed escape.

 

Unfortunately "saving your stuns" doesn't work when the enemy can chain defensive cooldowns for 57 seconds

[12(saber Ward) + 30 (Cloak of Pain) + 10(Predation) + 5(Undying rage)] In addition to another 6 of your inability to hit your target.

 

They have five defensive cooldowns, an offensive accuracy cripple, two escape and more damage as as opposed to a Powertechs one cooldown, and two stuns.

 

 

Now on an offensive standpoint marauders are clearly just as broken as they are defensively. As a Adrenaline/Rage resource class (Which counts as an "unlimited resource pool") the idea behind balancing these types of classes comes from resource generation. For example in WoW a warrior's combat charge would Cost rage instead of generate, as the non-combat charge would generate a small portion of the resource pool. After the initial charge the resource generation would come from auto-attacks and taking damage where abilities would spend the resource that you gained.

 

Marauders and Sentinels apparently don't have to abide by this basic balancing rule. Instead they can generate almost a full pool of their resource seconds after engaging in combat simply by charging in and using Zealous Strike/Battering assault. This is an incredibly bad design flaw because now within a ridiculously short time span the Marauder can simply unload a plethora of damage on the enemy without any drawbacks.

 

In addition to a much too easy to gain resource, Marauders and Sentinels also have another resource that comes pretty much free from using abilities (From Fury/Zen). This provides the Sent with extra and free utility skills without having to use their actual resource pool.

 

My suggestion would be to remove the resource gain on charge completely. Lower the resource gain on Zealous Strike/Battering assault by around three and reduce the damage of the resource dump skills Vicious Slash/Slash. (I didn't include the Combat/Carnage 31 Pt talent because it is underpowered as is). This would allow the warrior basic attack skill to actually be used often as the main resource gain.

 

Of course anybody who mains a marauder will disagree with me because they are in face first, rather than taking a step back and looking at the whole picture. For reference I am not one sided, I have a 50 Sentinel (BM), a 50 Sorcerer (BM+Rakata) and a 50 Powertech (Rakata). I have played an extensive amount in both PvP and PvE with each character as well.

 

#1. Yes they are extremely overpowered

#2. No class needs one minute full of defensive cooldowns.

#3. No class should be able to 1v1 every other class if the balance team is doing their job.

#4. No class should have a counter that sounds like this "Don't 1v1 us, run and find friends because we're balanced by 3v1 fights!"

 

TL : DR - Don't skip to the bottom actually read it. The point are valid and explainable - From a pre-1.2 BM Sentinel.