JUGGS: Enraged Defense - love it or hate it?

[chillshock]

Situational.

 

Sometimes it helps, sometimes it is really a bad idea to use.

 

It's no I-win-button. It can be an I-lose-button.

 

But sometimes ... like on the last few yards on huttball with all cd's up and a gazillion people blasting you... this might every now and then... be the last yard needed.

 

Just because a skill isn't a no-brainer it doesn't make it a bad skill. It's still better than a full ragebar.

[Dracosz]

Fantastic as vengeance and immortal dps, horrible for everything else.

[FalcoLombardi]

I personally think it should only eat 1 rage for every 2 heals. And not lower threat by a moderate amount

 

But, in it's current state, get good aggro, use it, AoE taunt and do some good AoE as a tank, it can be pretty dang useful

[unicornfive]

It should give rage instead of draining...

And the 15% dmg reduction should be on spell while u trained it, not on talent

 

Marauders/sents :

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/arJX2s8/cloak-of-pain

lasts for 30 sec when getting hit, with 1 min cd... and dmg enemy too, with more dmg than vengeance dots...

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/91opIPj/obfuscate

another 1 min OP defensive spell

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fYZIabE/undying-rage

1,5 min god mode for maras....After 1.2 when all classes die within secs...Mara is the one that killing them within secs with OP ravage with 100% armor ignore and ofc survive after killing them all with his :

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fYZIabE/undying-rage

only 45 sec cd, and ofc..dmg reduction on it too.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/ei8yu4T/defensive-roll

After they got the +smash dmg talent too, they need to make 100% sure than rage mara will pwn rage jugg everytime they see them, 1v1 or 1v2 or more..

Because their defensive cds werent enough, they must had 30% passive aoe dmg reduction...

 

Cause all of us know...Which 1 of 2 classes, is the tank class..

Edited April 14, 2012 by unicornfive

[wickedUOF]

You guys sound like baddingtons.

 

Which is realistic because I beat every juggernaut I fight usually so no wonder.

[Xanxari]

well first of all i think Bioware wanted to give us some love but not some OP love, and that is good now they just have to work a little with it.

 

1. For PvP the heal is okey, and the rage is step, but if you have a Vengence/immortal spec, you get 15% damage reduction and that is really a nice skill to have. and the rage is not bad if you skill the talent where you get rage when they CC you. i would say that here the skill is what i want in PvE as Main Tank.

 

2. For PvE DPS, the skill aint that bad, yes it cost 4 rage but its faster to use then Intercede and you still have intercede to help others out with Threat dumps, i would suggest they lowered the cost of this skill to 2 rage if you are in an Offensive stance.

 

3. For PvE Tanking, well it reduces my threat and i would for love of god not dare to use this on bosses Nightmare mode, if i loose agro ppl will die, and i suggest here that they change it so when you are in Tanking Stance you wont loose threat.

 

 

 

but if you ask me this skill should be something that would change as we change stances.

 

1. so if im tanking i would get the passive 15% damage reduction when i use it and i wont loose agro...

2. And when im DPSing i dump Threat, and loose rage if i get hit every sec for even more Threat dumping.

3. and the skill should't cost 4 rage, but should cost Zero rage to activate and 2 rage every sec.

 

If Bioware would change it to this! i think most juggernauts would be happy, i just dont know if the other classes would like that .

[unicornfive]

well first of all i think Bioware wanted to give us some love but not some OP love, and that is good now they just have to work a little with it.

 

1. For PvP the heal is okey, and the rage is step, but if you have a Vengence/immortal spec, you get 15% damage reduction and that is really a nice skill to have. and the rage is not bad if you skill the talent where you get rage when they CC you. i would say that here the skill is what i want in PvE as Main Tank.

 

2. For PvE DPS, the skill aint that bad, yes it cost 4 rage but its faster to use then Intercede and you still have intercede to help others out with Threat dumps, i would suggest they lowered the cost of this skill to 2 rage if you are in an Offensive stance.

 

3. For PvE Tanking, well it reduces my threat and i would for love of god not dare to use this on bosses Nightmare mode, if i loose agro ppl will die, and i suggest here that they change it so when you are in Tanking Stance you wont loose threat.

 

 

 

but if you ask me this skill should be something that would change as we change stances.

 

1. so if im tanking i would get the passive 15% damage reduction when i use it and i wont loose agro...

2. And when im DPSing i dump Threat, and loose rage if i get hit every sec for even more Threat dumping.

3. and the skill should't cost 4 rage, but should cost Zero rage to activate and 2 rage every sec.

If Bioware would change it to this! i think most juggernauts would be happy, i just dont know if the other classes would like that .

 

2 rage drain per sec?!?!?!?!

How about making it reduces your dmg by 100% while its active....Its the same thing, but at least u get to see the animations...so u can pretend u fighting.

[Noth]

well first of all i think Bioware wanted to give us some love but not some OP love, and that is good now they just have to work a little with it.

 

1. For PvP the heal is okey, and the rage is step, but if you have a Vengence/immortal spec, you get 15% damage reduction and that is really a nice skill to have. and the rage is not bad if you skill the talent where you get rage when they CC you. i would say that here the skill is what i want in PvE as Main Tank.

 

2. For PvE DPS, the skill aint that bad, yes it cost 4 rage but its faster to use then Intercede and you still have intercede to help others out with Threat dumps, i would suggest they lowered the cost of this skill to 2 rage if you are in an Offensive stance.

 

3. For PvE Tanking, well it reduces my threat and i would for love of god not dare to use this on bosses Nightmare mode, if i loose agro ppl will die, and i suggest here that they change it so when you are in Tanking Stance you wont loose threat.

 

 

 

but if you ask me this skill should be something that would change as we change stances.

 

1. so if im tanking i would get the passive 15% damage reduction when i use it and i wont loose agro...

2. And when im DPSing i dump Threat, and loose rage if i get hit every sec for even more Threat dumping.

3. and the skill should't cost 4 rage, but should cost Zero rage to activate and 2 rage every sec.

 

If Bioware would change it to this! i think most juggernauts would be happy, i just dont know if the other classes would like that .

 

Keep the start up cost and get rid of the rage per second. At that point the skill would be fine. 2 rage per second kills any dps you are going to do(that's 20 rage compared to the current 14 rage). Right now it makes our tight rage use even tighter and even makes us not able to get off moves.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Noth

[Schwarzwald]

I wouldn't say enraged defense is 'good' yet, but I still have to say its useful.

 

Use a Rakata Stim and Endure pain, then use your Enraged Defense, I've had the heals from it tic for 550. And 550 is pretty good if you are taking massive amounts of Guard damage and the like. It will keep you alive if you have a healer nearby who needs a few moments to finish a cast and what not.

 

I can only imagine that Enraged Defense if you were dumb enough to buy PvP tanking gear, with all that HP and stuff.

 

tl;dr Its better for pure geared tanks, but its dumb to go pure geared tank. The ability is nice and should still be used, but it could be better.

[LiquidKarbide]

This move rocks. Usable WHILE stunned. 4 rage and one rage per tick is a lot, but if you use when youre stunned, you shouldnt have any rage problems. 45s CD so its almost always there when you need it. If anything, our survivability is absolutely terrible but this helps more than hurt for sure.

[Comfterbilly]

Keep the start up cost and get rid of the rage per second. At that point the skill would be fine. 2 rage per second kills any dps you are going to do(that's 20 rage compared to the current 14 rage). Right now it makes our tight rage use even tighter and even makes us not able to get off moves.

 

I guess in its current state we could call enraged defense an 'oh sht' button. With Unleash healing for 10% and enraged defense activating, I have so far gotten up to 34k healing at the end of a wz... to be fair to the skill I have (sometimes) gone a lot longer without dying (sometimes) (someeeeetimes).

 

Basically this skill when you need it most kills your rage store; with an empty rage bank there's not much you can do against the person you are fighting against; so in addition to being healed perhaps back up to 20% health, other than standing there and letting your attacker smash you for another 20% the only real option I've found is to target someone else 10+ meters away, hit them with a saber throw then a leap (hopefully a low DPSer), then a sundering assault and maybe if I get some heals I can keep on fighting...

 

The reason I don't see the high rage cost as justified is that tanks do such low DPS anyway and in this situation your next smash is likely not to come with shockwave, considering how things go.

[Noth]

I guess in its current state we could call enraged defense an 'oh sht' button. With Unleash healing for 10% and enraged defense activating, I have so far gotten up to 34k healing at the end of a wz... to be fair to the skill I have (sometimes) gone a lot longer without dying (sometimes) (someeeeetimes).

 

Basically this skill when you need it most kills your rage store; with an empty rage bank there's not much you can do against the person you are fighting against; so in addition to being healed perhaps back up to 20% health, other than standing there and letting your attacker smash you for another 20% the only real option I've found is to target someone else 10+ meters away, hit them with a saber throw then a leap (hopefully a low DPSer), then a sundering assault and maybe if I get some heals I can keep on fighting...

 

The reason I don't see the high rage cost as justified is that tanks do such low DPS anyway and in this situation your next smash is likely not to come with shockwave, considering how things go.

 

Chances are both saber throw and leap will be on cooldown. It also won't heal you up at all, unless they are just using basic attacks. It has potential to be a wonderful tool, but the cost is just far far too much. Seriously, what other cooldown has such a high cost that it lowers dps.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Noth

[Varus_Praetor]

I guess in its current state we could call enraged defense an 'oh sht' button. With Unleash healing for 10% and enraged defense activating, I have so far gotten up to 34k healing at the end of a wz... to be fair to the skill I have (sometimes) gone a lot longer without dying (sometimes) (someeeeetimes).

 

Basically this skill when you need it most kills your rage store; with an empty rage bank there's not much you can do against the person you are fighting against; so in addition to being healed perhaps back up to 20% health, other than standing there and letting your attacker smash you for another 20% the only real option I've found is to target someone else 10+ meters away, hit them with a saber throw then a leap (hopefully a low DPSer), then a sundering assault and maybe if I get some heals I can keep on fighting...

 

The reason I don't see the high rage cost as justified is that tanks do such low DPS anyway and in this situation your next smash is likely not to come with shockwave, considering how things go.

 

 

So it's good IF you you have a full rage bar, IF your attacker is using basic attacks on you, and IF you didn't have any real shot at killing them anyway and are just waiting on a heal or someone to rescue you (because it destroys your dps).

 

Thanks BW for this awesome ability!

[Subparhero]

An "oh sht" button that costs 4 rage is not very usable. Reliability goes out the window.

That is why these buttons usually cost no rage and dont respect GCD.

 

I agree that being usable while stunned is unique and, given the right tweaks, could make this a cool defensive ability. As-is its just not. (not for pve tanking anyway!)

Edited April 15, 2012 by Subparhero

[Crymson-Raider]

Well i really hate the 4 rage cost and the continuing rage cost every time it heals you. Just horrible imho. Please lower the cost of it by half. Fighting Lord Raxus i tested out how much it heals. I popped endure pain (26.5k hp) and then hit Enraged Defense so it would heal me more since my hp is higher and they both last 10 sec.

 

So overall it healed me 9,738 hp. not bad, but i think i used it about 3 times, and i noticed it definetly sucked my rage and lowers dps.

 

I think this power needs a lil tweaking to make it not such a negative. I dont get the minus threat mechanic. Also im very angry to see the huddle power gone along with the 4% endurance gain. Why did u get rid of the 4% end buff? As a tank we need more hp, it just proves that assassin tanks are better now, there self heal is way better and they have much higher shield/absorb chance than juggs because they actually get cool powers like dark ward. Also there HP is higher because they get a +endurance buff from skill trees.

 

I dont get why they nerfed that from juggs??? im just left clueless as to why they are making it harder to tank now. Also sonic barrier is still pitiful and needs to be 2x as strong as it is currently. In raids its just about useless even with the 2nd bonus from gear, the extra 20% buff to it is nothing, needs to be like 100% buff..

 

Well these are things that irritate me about juggs currently.

[Goretzu]

This move rocks. Usable WHILE stunned. 4 rage and one rage per tick is a lot, but if you use when youre stunned, you shouldnt have any rage problems. 45s CD so its almost always there when you need it. If anything, our survivability is absolutely terrible but this helps more than hurt for sure.

 

The problem is that is about the only situation were it really works (without rage staving you), but even there it's not a point surviablity move, more a small mitigation one.

[Elyx]

Personal Experience?

 

As Vengance, nice DR ability. I usually have enough excess rage on fights that I can be safe popping it on a silver or elite that I know will drain my health bar. but it's sporadic though...the times I've tried it It's tough to day when/if ill have the rage. sometimes it's OK, sometimes im stuck with base rage generating skills till it's over. Too random for a regular use skill.

 

As a tank...well, just started doing that for the guild, and let me tell ya, when your running entry level gear with DPS that are Ops geared, the last thing you want to risk is losing any threat. the threat dump needs to be taken OFF, and added to a DPS tree talent. Just tag it onto the one in the vengance tree that already gives the extra DR...that's usually when you'll want to use it in a fight.

 

Rage per second is steep...I'd settle for a high rage cost and have it as a simple HoT. give us the total health recovery as a HoT, put it up to 5 or 6 rage. then i can pop it when I'm done with a solo fight, and be ready for the next. With the threat reduction added to a DPS tree talent, Immortal Juggs can just pop it, and know that they will have the HoT available, and start building up rage again.

 

the RPS needs to go the way of the Dodo....Or perhaps keep as a baseline, and give the tanks a talent that eliminate the rage per second. That way, rage starved tanks wont suffer, and DPS Juggs will have a decent threat reduction tool that is timed with a DR buff.

 

I like the idea, but at the moment it's rage cost is just too steep. I rarely use it, even after trying it out. Never use it when tanking.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Elyx

[FalcoLombardi]

I personally think it should only eat 1 rage for every 2 heals. And not lower threat by a moderate amount

 

But, in it's current state, get good aggro, use it, AoE taunt and do some good AoE as a tank, it can be pretty dang useful

 

Thinking about it, it doesn't need to eat rage at all when healed. It already takes 4

[Elyx]

Thinking about it, it doesn't need to eat rage at all when healed. It already takes 4

 

now that you think about it....

 

If you talent Unleash appropriately (i.e. doable with an Immortal build), you could spec for a 10% health bonus once every 1:30m. instant...no rage cost.

 

personally, I'd take that over the current form of ED. too bad the talents are spread out enough that you have to take a cut in something to get them both (perhaps by design?). but still...10% instantly once every 1.5 minutes seems better then a "potential" (read not always) heal every 45 seconds that completely drains your resources.

 

Imagine being a tanking assassin and getting your force dropped to zero over the course of 10 seconds. Or being a PT BH and having your heat maxed over the same time. Sounds real effective, no?

 

Like this Spec. Not the el primo of specs per se, but you are cutting out a few talents (one or two really) and getting a free 10% bump every 1.5m . Takes a bit longer to build to a full stack of sunders, but who knows?

Edited April 15, 2012 by Elyx

[squallNCloud]

From what I have tried on my Immortal Jug it's a completely useless skill that only serves a purpose for DPS oriented Jug classes. NEVER use this while tanking it gimps you considerably and worse part about it, drops threat. *** bioware...are you really that bad at figuring out that tanks need threat to keep ppl alive? If I drop agro chances are the mob will head to the healer or highest DPS (dependent on who's shielded), come on get your head out of your asses and make jug tanks a viable class for holding agro and survivability.

 

Stop with trying to change the formula of MMO's and just stick to what we know and work up or branch out from there. Like maybe I dunno GIVE US A FRIGGAN DOT!!!! I know it's close to WoW but seriously give a DOT on a force scream and let that spread on a smash? Hard to come up with? w/e i'm not tanking until they fix immortal jugs.

[squallNCloud]

bumped Edited April 15, 2012 by squallNCloud

[SintLuciferNL]

Well i haven't use it in PVE but in PVP i feel it is a nice abilitie.

Playing as an immortal tank myself it is nice in huttbal or when you are defending on your own.

 

pop:

- endure pain

- Enraged Defense

- Invincible

 

And you can live alot longer. So fun to use this in huttbal. Just keep on walking without taking damage.

[rweiowjerwei]

What it does is perfectly fine, especially as Vengeance it makes me very resilient with my other CD's...However, this comes at the cost of me dealing zero damage because it eats all of my rage.

 

Undecided...Maybe some slight tweaks are in order?

[Nemmar]

Well i haven't use it in PVE but in PVP i feel it is a nice abilitie.

Playing as an immortal tank myself it is nice in huttbal or when you are defending on your own.

 

pop:

- endure pain

- Enraged Defense

- Invincible

 

And you can live alot longer. So fun to use this in huttbal. Just keep on walking without taking damage.

 

This man knows what hes talking about.

 

Enraged defense is always up since it has such a short CD for a survivability skill. I usually have this and endure pain off cooldown at the same time. Also, im vengence and i have it talented to reduce damage by 15%. And did i mention you can use it while stunned? It surely helps alot, instead of just getting killed. Given we dont have any stuns per se and every other class seems to have them, this is an incredible counter to keep you on the game.

 

As far as rage goes i usually have the skill that gives me 6 rage rdy for it. Also a 1m cooldown only.

 

It is a very good ability. Such that i wouldnt even mind if it took a nerf to a 1m cooldown.

Just dont touch my ravage damage. Its essential that it stays like this since the vengence spec is built around it.

 

So, if you nerf marauders, nerf ONLY marauders. Dont break juggernauts as a side effect. That really worries me alot.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Nemmar

[Steele_dk]

As a vengance juggernaut i am starting to like this ability alot.

 

A talent in the vengance tree adds further 15% damage reduction when Enraged defense is up.

 

Paired with the little heal it gives this is a great defensive cooldown.

 

It uses alot of rage yes, but it is a choice you make. I usually pop this together with enrage to ensure that i wont run out of rage to dps aswell and so far it is working really great.

 

I first used it at the point of where i was close to dying but i think that is not the place where this ability really shines. When i start a new encounter vs someone else, i use it now at the beginning of the fight and save Saber ward to the end of the fight.

The reduced dmg from the start of the fight often leaves me at an advantage and i have surprised many so far with being a much tougher target to kill than first anticipated.

 

So i am fine with it.

 

A rage Juggernaut though, i wouldnt want to use it i that much i think as it can end up using alot of rage vs little benefit.