My UI layout: http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u473/Stu_Plecker/Screenshot_2012-04-25_21_20_15_153810.jpg My UI setup: http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u473/Stu_Plecker/Screenshot_2012-04-25_21_18_33_210979.jpg

FINALLY! Someone that see where i'm coming from ! The class is fine the way it is....this thread is to build upon that class and make it FUN to play! finally some positivity that we can build upon for this tank with no flash appeal. For the idea for the taunt "get over here!" LOL i love it....

If I were to put a "Label" on juggernauts...it would be "Death Knight". Our DPS is sick...or health is great...*clears throat* heavy armor....we can tank if need be (for a little whlie unless immortal)...and let's not forget we can really get in there as a gr8 melee and take about as much damage as a tank before falling. So it's really the "style" of play you want. If you ask me maradurs are the "risky" style of play....high DPS....medium armor....average HP pool....and again INSANE DPS. So if they get agro....could run the risk of falling fast. Did I mention the DPS?

Given you can't hold agro from a mob standing in front of you for 6 secs is beyond me. Now if the mob is traveling then I can understand....but you have more then one taunt if your a Jug/immortal. So you really have to WORK to hold agro. But 6 secs of toe-to-toe agro gen is more then enough to hold it from any DPS. That being said...I play a sniper in HM 16man EC and if snipers aren't using Countermeasures to keep there agro down....they get booted. And it's in my rotation normally on boss fights. It only makes sense that snipers/operatives are higher on the DPS and that is WHY they get the skill countermeasures. I have never pulled agro from any boss and I usually keep DPSing no matter what. If I do the tank fell asleep at the wheel. If I stop or ANY dps stops then you get the problem of enrage timers creeping closer and closer. Granted we use a PT and Sin tanks for this. ATM using a Jug/imor would be more for off tank sadly.

Well I normally use taunt to grab a random add that goes astray. But normally I use it on my first pull to maximize agro. But really don't keep it in my rotation so I can keep it up for w/e the **** hit's the fan. On pull: 1. Use taunt when there is 1 or 2 silver mobs, just pick one and charge the other. So that way I don't Blow Threatening Scream for 2 silvers and 3 non-elites. Not to mention I will try and grp them together with force push to maximize my DPS and AOE's just so I don't have to rely on taunts. If there is an elite, 2 silvers and a handful of non-elites. Taunt the elite then I will charge a sliver and Threatening Scream, Grp them together enrage,smash, sweeping, sweeping, all in 6 seconds to really build up that agro until threatening scream set's it back to normal table agro. 2. I really only use Taunt when a boss dumps hate ....which there aren't that many that do...but sometimes they reset the agro table and all hell breaks loss. If you can't hold agro on a boss as a Jug/immo then you have issues. Unless it's scripted for agro dump. and 3. Random mobs that do get lost from holding agro.....go for Highest DPS, Healer, w/e. Taunt is fine to use in those situations. Or choke is also a great skill to give your grp member to reposition near you to change it's path into your AOE/dps.

I recently hit 50 about a month ago and nearly done with columni gear. Granted it's slow for me since I have RL priorities. But I will have to agree after 1.2 I have had to seriously change up my rotation to make holding agro easier for me...and the grp. That being said each tank has a "niche" that they fit into. Immortals seem to be great at tanking 1v1 i.e. Bosses or 1 Champion and AOEing for minor threat to 4 other mobs....but as I found out reading forums and trusting teammates in taking down lesser mobs, this class is just only good at holding agro for 6-10 secs on lot's of mobs...and then staying focused on generating agro on one really heavy hitter mob while cycling your rotation/AOE until your AOE taunt CD is done. And that seems to put the weight a little bit on the heals and DPS to get the job done....while immortal tank keeps the Champ at bay until ready for DPS.... well that's my thoughts....and seems to work

If backhand had I higher level tier spec for cooldown only...which I think is all the skill needs to really spam it with taunt and force scream....that right there would be my rotation for immortal tanking. Currently it's: 1.Saber Throw 2.Force Charge 3.Force Scream for the damage absorb 4.Threatening Scream (depending on amount of mobs) or Taunt (generally another mob that's a tougher mob) 5.Usually I get a proc for retaliation for the 6% def chance. 6. Enrage 7.Sunder 8.Crushing Blow 9.Force Scream 10. Smash 11.Backhand 12. Repeat steps 6-9 with Assaults in there for rage, and Sweeping or Vicious Slash for DPS and enrage timer Give me your thoughts on anything I can add in there, and I really feel it's missing something.

I couldn't agree with this more....Backhand has a high rage cost and a heck of a long CD to boot. I have to off set that with Crushing Blow to hold agro on larger mobs just to keep the hate rolling. Not to mention Sweeping is kind of lack luster for the skill it is. I can't remember if it's 3 rage or 2 with spec, and I don't think it's got any lowering specs TBH. Sweeping could definitely use a little bit of a boost to compensate for the rage cost. I wanna say sweeping is so crumby for DPS prolly cause it spreads the DPS to every mob, i.e. more mobs less damage to each...less mobs MORE damage to each. But I do like the Backhand rage cost you thought of.

And being able to skill into Unstoppable would make you more....viable?

I like the idea that you mentioned about immortal being the "first" tank and never really being finished. And sometimes it feels that way...like we lack something. *As I stare at sin tanks in jealousy*

Well I don't believe I meant the mitigation is an issue for Immortals...just a little bit of tweaking needs to be done to make it a little more viable...such as Pommel Strike very situational. I do use it...but it's more for soloing and when I force choke something. Just throw in a proc here or there and the class will be fine.

Thats more like it .... both very good ideas...not that I think of it...i rarely use savage kick.

I have previously stated this in another thread and long since thought the more DPS a jug immortal does the better threat....but I quickly get over ruled when I die more ....so i'm FORCED to tank the "correct" way which I think is just not letting you explore the possibilities of the class. High DPS with middle ground mitigation with above average Health pool....but in most circumstances....nobody wants that.

I feel that I'm capable imo...being my 2nd toon at 50 and doing HM's without problem I think I can safely say that. But what I'm simply asking is...what would MAKE tanking as a immortal better....i'm not saying they need to do this...I want to think outside the box and try see if it could make the class better rather then saying "You suck as a tank and need more fingers to play better!" Come on....just think and see what we can come up with! IDEAS!!!

I don't think there is anything TERRIBLY wrong with tanking immortal....just needs something. These are thought so IMPROVE them and was wondering if anyone thought the same. Remember...this is my opinion...just agree if you think they are a decent idea for immortals