What is with PvP?

[Sparkeh]

What has happened to PvP in MMO's?

 

Actually what has happened to MMO's. People are playing these games for the wrong reasons and its killing the genre from the inside out...

 

Its not about stats, its not about how big an e-peen you can get and its not about making it quick and painless so you can grind meaningless items, currencies and whatever other carrots they have.

 

PvP is about fun as with the rest of the game. Unfortunately it seems people are more interested in acting like mindless zombies trying to min/max everything for ridiculously shallow reasons. Why would you put yourself through hours of stressing about min/maxing just to get a PvP gear set?

 

The whole prize is not about acquiring it but the journey to getting it. The actual prize then only enhances that. As it stands now people get the gear set and then realise that they don't actually like PvP anymore because they relate it to mindless grinding for gear which would then be inferior as they have unlocked everything.

 

Im not sure exactly where the mindset originated but frankly its not only making the game far less enjoyable for you as a player but its also killing the game as developers become more focused on spamming new carrots for your stick rather than more fun, meaningful PvP content...

[teambff]

What has happened to PvP in MMO's?

 

Actually what has happened to MMO's. People are playing these games for the wrong reasons and its killing the genre from the inside out...

 

Its not about stats, its not about how big an e-peen you can get and its not about making it quick and painless so you can grind meaningless items, currencies and whatever other carrots they have.

 

PvP is about fun as with the rest of the game. Unfortunately it seems people are more interested in acting like mindless zombies trying to min/max everything for ridiculously shallow reasons. Why would you put yourself through hours of stressing about min/maxing just to get a PvP gear set?

 

The whole prize is not about acquiring it but the journey to getting it. The actual prize then only enhances that. As it stands now people get the gear set and then realise that they don't actually like PvP anymore because they relate it to mindless grinding for gear which would then be inferior as they have unlocked everything.

 

Im not sure exactly where the mindset originated but frankly its not only making the game far less enjoyable for you as a player but its also killing the game as developers become more focused on spamming new carrots for your stick rather than more fun, meaningful PvP content...

 

i agree but it seems people need to have that something to keep going for.

 

to do that you also need the actual gameplay and the maps to be really fun where you can just play for hours based on the fun you're having and not what you're getting from it.

 

i don't think any of the warzones in their current state provide that.

huttball could with improvements, but not as it stands.

 

some people do find it fun to work for something and to be rewarded for that work (grinding as work). i don't find it all that fun personally. i don't want to "work" , ie, a mindless grind. i like a challenge but not mindless grind work.

 

the whole system needs an overhaul/reworking.

 

it's like the television rating system , outdated.

Edited April 9, 2012 by teambff

[sonofchiefy]

It's just the PvP design that's the problem. I keep going back to Guild Wars PvP design where everyone goes in equal and there is no gear to play for, it was team v team in mostly areana style in different environments, and you just played for fun and win, and you all looked about the same. Nobody cared for looks, just about strategy and team work and it was fun.

 

This whoe idea of gear in PvP is weird to me, as I didn't play WoW I suspect this is where this rubbish started, it's terrible. PvE is for vanity, PvP should be maxed gear, plain looking, roll any char u want and go in and do the business.

 

Bioware did a great job with the story based flashpoints, but man the model they chose for PvP was misguided.

[Nukor]

It's just the PvP design that's the problem. I keep going back to Guild Wars PvP design where everyone goes in equal and there is no gear to play for, it was team v team in mostly areana style in different environments, and you just played for fun and win, and you all looked about the same. Nobody cared for looks, just about strategy and team work and it was fun.

 

This whoe idea of gear in PvP is weird to me, as I didn't play WoW I suspect this is where this rubbish started, it's terrible. PvE is for vanity, PvP should be maxed gear, plain looking, roll any char u want and go in and do the business.

 

Bioware did a great job with the story based flashpoints, but man the model they chose for PvP was misguided.

 

I'm not sure if it originated from WoW, but I did play it and I completely agree that game is all about grinding to get a gear set, just in time for a new set to come out in order to continue the grind and keep people subscribed. Yeah there's a lot of content and features that have been developed for it over the years, but at the core, the game is all about gear.

 

What's really interesting about today's gaming society is that even though this marketing tactic is completely transparent, many people have been grinding for so long that they actually think it's fun and it's what they play for, which baffles me.

[Shlamorel]

What has happened to PvP in MMO's?

 

Actually what has happened to MMO's. People are playing these games for the wrong reasons and its killing the genre from the inside out...

 

Its not about stats, its not about how big an e-peen you can get and its not about making it quick and painless so you can grind meaningless items, currencies and whatever other carrots they have.

 

PvP is about fun as with the rest of the game. Unfortunately it seems people are more interested in acting like mindless zombies trying to min/max everything for ridiculously shallow reasons. Why would you put yourself through hours of stressing about min/maxing just to get a PvP gear set?

 

The whole prize is not about acquiring it but the journey to getting it. The actual prize then only enhances that. As it stands now people get the gear set and then realise that they don't actually like PvP anymore because they relate it to mindless grinding for gear which would then be inferior as they have unlocked everything.

 

Im not sure exactly where the mindset originated but frankly its not only making the game far less enjoyable for you as a player but its also killing the game as developers become more focused on spamming new carrots for your stick rather than more fun, meaningful PvP content...

 

I tend to agree with you.

 

Video gamers tend to have a lot of features seem in Asperger's disorder- which could explain why they (we?) tend to like grinds and min/maxing. No, I'm not saying gamers have a disorder, but there is certainly a prevalence of similar characteristics between the two populations.

 

Not sure how to fix =[

[Tattoonny]

Have to agree.

 

I started MMO'ing in EQ1 and used to pvp duel in that game for complete fun. Not worrying about gear or stats to much.

 

Moved onto WoW and had a huge laugh PvP around tauren mill and also in the early stages on the Wargrounds.

 

Lost interest in PvP when arena's were born as i felt it took away from the PvE side of things. Still looked for Open world PvP but it was rare.

 

WHO renewed my faith in PvP as i had some of the best times in my gaming life, although It had bugs and always had the possibility of turning into zerg fests, the classes were great and allowed for a flowing to and fro.

 

This game I enjoyed hugely as i level'd up, but once i hit 50 and seriously concentrated on PvP i have started to hate the game. Not logged on now for 2 weeks.

 

Am hoping 1.2 gives back some fun but i can't see it. Think there is either something wrong with the current batch of MMO's or I have just outgrown the whole genre.

 

MMo's used to be fun with PvP being a laugh, now it is grindy and whingy that seperates the 2 sections of the game from each other.

[Ihazcrayon]

I work late and tonight no one was on in my guild that had 50's. So I solo queued all night. Fought the same BM premade that had great communication/teamwork in huttball all night. My team generally had fresh 50's or people who just didn't know what was going on. (see: PUG) Needless to say I joined alot of losing games.

 

I had a blast! So much fun taking out an enemy with overwhelming odds against you. And when we won it was that much sweeter!

 

I still don't have all my BM pieces (have 2/3 bm gear) but who cares? I gained almost a valor rank and enjoyed myself. Never left a game due to "not getting my daily done quickly". Just made due with what I had.

 

I bought this game to PvP. I honestly haven't set foot in an operation yet and I have been playing since day 2 EGA. I enjoy it immensely.

 

And no, I wouldn't call myself a casual one bit. But if you are going to go down...go out in a blaze of glory and have fun with it.

 

TL;DR I mostly see what the OP is saying. Too many people are all about "the destination" and could care less about "the journey there". Sadly...MMO's are generally about the journey there. Play to have fun. I have a job in real life, so I don't try to make something I enjoy when I get home a second job that I have to pay into to keep employed.

 

EDIT: I ended up finishing my daily anyways. And this is far from my first MMO

Edited April 9, 2012 by Ihazcrayon

[kiwoo]

What has happened to PvP in MMO's?

 

Actually what has happened to MMO's. People are playing these games for the wrong reasons and its killing the genre from the inside out...

 

Its not about stats, its not about how big an e-peen you can get and its not about making it quick and painless so you can grind meaningless items, currencies and whatever other carrots they have.

 

PvP is about fun as with the rest of the game. Unfortunately it seems people are more interested in acting like mindless zombies trying to min/max everything for ridiculously shallow reasons. Why would you put yourself through hours of stressing about min/maxing just to get a PvP gear set?

 

The whole prize is not about acquiring it but the journey to getting it. The actual prize then only enhances that. As it stands now people get the gear set and then realise that they don't actually like PvP anymore because they relate it to mindless grinding for gear which would then be inferior as they have unlocked everything.

 

Im not sure exactly where the mindset originated but frankly its not only making the game far less enjoyable for you as a player but its also killing the game as developers become more focused on spamming new carrots for your stick rather than more fun, meaningful PvP content...

 

Agree 100% PvP in SWG for example was not about the gear or rewards, as pre CU there wasn't any rewards, justthe satisfaction of destroying an enemy guilds base or holding back an attack on yours till the vulnerbility timer ran out.

 

Even just getting the times that an enemy guilds bases were vulnerable was a large part of the pvp experience.

 

Too much focus on rewarding the individual has turned faction pride into a me me me selfish kind of attitude in regards to MMO communites.

 

Add in to that no real dependency on other roles within PvP. Take DaoC for example. Try fighting against a meleer as a caster. You needed that frontline to prevent meleers attacking you as any interupt stopped fully your cast. It's what brought players together.

 

Solo depeendency and rewards does more damage to the PvP enviroment than anything else in my opinion.

[unclekaula]

People complained in UO when you used a gm hally or gm leather. On top of that you had skill progression to add to the gear progression. You even lost your stuff or could have it stolen. Similar in DAOC you had gear progression. Heck, even CS you could save up and get better gear.

 

The game hasnt changed, the casual pvpers who claim to be hardcore have. So, what is it with pvp or is the real question what is it with pvpers?

[Nukor]

People complained in UO when you used a gm hally or gm leather. On top of that you had skill progression to add to the gear progression. You even lost your stuff or could have it stolen. Similar in DAOC you had gear progression. Heck, even CS you could save up and get better gear.

 

The game hasnt changed, the casual pvpers who claim to be hardcore have. So, what is it with pvp or is the real question what is it with pvpers?

 

This is quite true. I remember PVP'ing in Tibia, stealing people's gear while making them lose experience they've gained. Man it was exhilerating to PVP in that game, knowing that if you die you're looking at loosing a good chunk of the EXP you've gained on top of having the chance to drop your gear... it made every fight feel like it was a fight for your life, but it took careful planning to PVP in that game because doing it too much would get you marked as a "PK" and once you've killed too many players, you would have a 100% chance to drop ALL your gear.

 

Just imagine if they introduced something even close to being that hardcore, for even one day in this game. I bet that the line up to unsub would be huge!

[ShadowOfVey]

Study has shown when you add reward to things people already liked doing in the past for no reward, the activity overall becomes less enjoyable for them as they start associating the activity with getting the reward rather than the pleasure of doing the activity.

[MandoArc]

How about this in order to show bioware what is up let all of as WHO LOVE TO PVP FOR THE FUN OF IT GO BACK TO WARHAMMER ONLINE BUG OR NOT THE GAME IS 120% BETTER WENT IT COMES TO PVP 120% BETTER WENT THEY STAR LOSING NUMBERS TO WARHAMMER 2 things will happen they will copy warhammer system not wow or warhammer will take over and this game will get **** down or turn to a pve hardcore pve game like wow

 

hey and EA will look at warhamer and put the $ the game need and boost up there Dev team wish in turn willl give us all the BEST DAMN RVR GAME OUT THERE WARHAMMER ONLINE BABY;)

[MandoArc]

And yes i still play i quit for a long time and went back to it i came back to this game for the 1.2 my friend say they addings some stuff if is bull **** after month is over back to warhammer where skills mean something and LIKE I SAY THE BEST DAMN RVR GAME OUT THERE come on guys you guys calling your self pvp'rs YOU DONT KNOW WHAT PVP IS onlest you play warhammer online

[JediDuckling]

What has happened to PvP in MMO's?

 

Actually what has happened to MMO's. People are playing these games for the wrong reasons and its killing the genre from the inside out...

 

Its not about stats, its not about how big an e-peen you can get and its not about making it quick and painless so you can grind meaningless items, currencies and whatever other carrots they have.

 

PvP is about fun as with the rest of the game. Unfortunately it seems people are more interested in acting like mindless zombies trying to min/max everything for ridiculously shallow reasons. Why would you put yourself through hours of stressing about min/maxing just to get a PvP gear set?

 

The whole prize is not about acquiring it but the journey to getting it. The actual prize then only enhances that. As it stands now people get the gear set and then realise that they don't actually like PvP anymore because they relate it to mindless grinding for gear which would then be inferior as they have unlocked everything.

 

Im not sure exactly where the mindset originated but frankly its not only making the game far less enjoyable for you as a player but its also killing the game as developers become more focused on spamming new carrots for your stick rather than more fun, meaningful PvP content...

 

its these min maxers that ruin theg ame for everyone else as because they abuse overpowerd and broken combinations people cry and moan and they get nerfed etc but its not just overpowerd things that get nerfed. class's/items that was proberly fine to begin with get the shaft also.

 

i cant stand min maxer scrubs either as it is technicly exploiting the game mechanics

[TUXs]

PvP is about fun as with the rest of the game.

 

Not in this game.

 

PvP is about gear and PvP is ONLY about Warzones. Bioware deceived players/customers into thinking there would be some reason for "world PvP"...they remove what little and lifeless attempt they made at it in 1.2.

 

For the foreseeable future, PvP in SWTOR is limited exclusively to Warzones. It makes me sick.

[XElementalX]

 

Actually what has happened to MMO's. People are playing these games for the wrong reasons and its killing the genre from the inside out.

 

It´s actually more of a "the wrong people have begun playing MMO-PvP" a long time ago.

 

The demographics´ of todays customer base are completely different from those of the first generation of western MMOs.

 

Most people playing MMO pvp today are not even stable enough to do "real" PvP. They want to win without any regard to such factors like skill, training, teamplay, organisation and tactics. "I pay for it and that buys me the right to win at least 75 % of the time while doing pvp!".

 

Gear-progession is one of the answers that designers developed for these people. Funny thing is: that´s the same people who spam forums with their whines about gear being unfair. Usually it doesn´t mean "I want fair pvp". In most cases it just means "I´m too weak/stupid to admit that I´m not really good at what I do and have to spend some time and effot to get better!"

Edited April 9, 2012 by XElementalX

[Shlamorel]

Study has shown when you add reward to things people already liked doing in the past for no reward, the activity overall becomes less enjoyable for them as they start associating the activity with getting the reward rather than the pleasure of doing the activity.

 

Omg! A fellow psych major perhaps? I'm glad someone else is aware of this =]

[Olympic]

Trained monkeys; press lever (war zone) get sugar treat (gear).

[Minkypuss]

Nice post. I agree 100%. There should be a reason for PvP other than gear.

[MinguesDew]

PvP is about gear and PvP is ONLY about Warzones. Bioware deceived players/customers into thinking there would be some reason for "world PvP"...they remove what little and lifeless attempt they made at it in 1.2.

They tried and failed, that is different than deception. Also, the gear gap in this game is really not that bad.

For the foreseeable future, PvP in SWTOR is limited exclusively to Warzones. It makes me sick.

Getting "sick" from MMOs makes me sick (shows you have no perspective whatsoever), read some non-fiction or talk to some people with real problems and learn how to really feel sick.

[TUXs]

They tried and failed, that is different than deception. Also, the gear gap in this game is really not that bad.

 

Getting "sick" from MMOs makes me sick (shows you have no perspective whatsoever), read some non-fiction or talk to some people with real problems and learn how to really feel sick.

 

The gear gap IS that bad. It's better in 1.2, but still there.

 

I didn't mean it literally made me "sick". Obviously you took it as such, so let me help you understand what I meant better - I'm very disappointed. I had hope for this game, I had faith in Bioware, I believed that Ilum would "blow me away". I didn't buy into the hype of others, instead, like a good follower, I listened to what Bioware SAID and expected nothing more. 1-50, once, this game is unbeatable. PvP being destroyed patch after patch, rather than improved, is very disheartening to me though.

 

I will suggest you take your own advice and not get "sick" by me posting my thoughts on the forums. If my comments truly make you ill, I suggest you simply block me so you don't read my comments. And try not to read things like this too literally.

[Bnol]

They tried and failed, that is different than deception. Also, the gear gap in this game is really not that bad.

 

This. They didn't deceive anyone intentionally. If you actually heard/read the devs comments about the game the focus was always about the story. Ilum was a failure, and the devs themselves admit it. Bioware can't win, because either they keep Ilum in a failed state until they overhaul it, or essentially remove it until they overhaul it and people will be unhappy with either option.

 

 

 

At the core of the RPG genre of games is progression. This progression can take many forms, from levels, skills, gear, stat points, etc. Gear is the easiest form of progression because you can alter gear the easiest. Gear provides a natural reset button for expansions and new tiers of content. You can provide gear for new players to catch up to the gear curve. If there wasn't gear progression there would be some other kind of progression in the game.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Bnol

[Geawiel]

I was hoping the PvP in here would be better also. Especially after seeing Mythic being absorbed into BW. However, I then realize that the Mythic that was absorbed is not the same team that stumbled upon the original DAoC formula.

 

What this game needs in the way of PvP is possibly a complete planet dedicated to a RvR style combat as DAoC has. Illum isn't even close to this.

 

Attacking other players just to attack is fun, don't get me wrong, however for most it becomes boring after the first few times. Most need some sort of motivation to go out there. Put in an outpost and camp system, with the outposts equalling the castles and camps being the towers. Putting in some sort of relic system for the enemy to steal would help also.

 

The problem with such a system would be the lopsided population right now. DAoC, for those that don't know, have that 3rd faction to break up any population imbalance. 2 factions attack each other and, the third will usually come to the aid of the smaller side in a sort of uneasy truce. Once that stronger/larger realms is beat down and everything returns to normal, then the truce is usually broken and the cycle starts again.

 

Adjusting the base areas in open world would go a long way to making open world pvp happen also. As it is now, even on a pvp server, enemy player interactions rarely happen outside wzs and Illum. There is really no need to go to an enemy area at all.

[Vaipyr]

I work late and tonight no one was on in my guild that had 50's. So I solo queued all night. Fought the same BM premade that had great communication/teamwork in huttball all night. My team generally had fresh 50's or people who just didn't know what was going on. (see: PUG) Needless to say I joined alot of losing games.

 

I had a blast! So much fun taking out an enemy with overwhelming odds against you. And when we won it was that much sweeter!

 

I still don't have all my BM pieces (have 2/3 bm gear) but who cares? I gained almost a valor rank and enjoyed myself. Never left a game due to "not getting my daily done quickly". Just made due with what I had.

 

I bought this game to PvP. I honestly haven't set foot in an operation yet and I have been playing since day 2 EGA. I enjoy it immensely.

 

And no, I wouldn't call myself a casual one bit. But if you are going to go down...go out in a blaze of glory and have fun with it.

 

TL;DR I mostly see what the OP is saying. Too many people are all about "the destination" and could care less about "the journey there". Sadly...MMO's are generally about the journey there. Play to have fun. I have a job in real life, so I don't try to make something I enjoy when I get home a second job that I have to pay into to keep employed.

 

EDIT: I ended up finishing my daily anyways. And this is far from my first MMO

 

Agreed. I don't understand why people are all about the "MUST HAF SHINNY CARROT" in these games anymore. I remember back in AC on the DT server people just played. They RP'd, even though the game didn't really give you alot in the way of RP "tools". There was constant pvp, even though the game didn't really balance or reward for it. We just did it because it was fun. Now people just min/max and rush to the end in order to marvel at their e-peen, then get bored and complain before moving on to the next game that comes out.

 

Just don't understand it.

 

and you all looked about the same. Nobody cared for looks

 

I have to strongly disagree with this. We just didn't have much of a choice or variety back in the day. I and many of the people I played AC with HATED the fact that we all looked pretty much the same. In WoW, AoC, WAR etc as well. Drives us ******* crazy. I really don't want to look the same as you and the 40 people running by. There's no identity, no personality to it. Just random trooper pleb #4849332 reporting for duty. How boring.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Vaipyr

[maticlandarr]

What has happened to PvP in MMO's?

 

Actually what has happened to MMO's. People are playing these games for the wrong reasons and its killing the genre from the inside out...

 

Its not about stats, its not about how big an e-peen you can get and its not about making it quick and painless so you can grind meaningless items, currencies and whatever other carrots they have.

 

PvP is about fun as with the rest of the game. Unfortunately it seems people are more interested in acting like mindless zombies trying to min/max everything for ridiculously shallow reasons. Why would you put yourself through hours of stressing about min/maxing just to get a PvP gear set?

 

The whole prize is not about acquiring it but the journey to getting it. The actual prize then only enhances that. As it stands now people get the gear set and then realise that they don't actually like PvP anymore because they relate it to mindless grinding for gear which would then be inferior as they have unlocked everything.

 

Im not sure exactly where the mindset originated but frankly its not only making the game far less enjoyable for you as a player but its also killing the game as developers become more focused on spamming new carrots for your stick rather than more fun, meaningful PvP content...

 

 

The skinner box mmo model needs to be killed off. We now have players so conditioned that they wont play a game without a carrot dangled in front of them. Its really weird and somewhat frightening.