I agree, gear is insanely easy to get in this game.

There isn't a single MMO out there that isn't "gear based". Not one. Its just a matter of how the gear is obtained that makes games different. And some games go the extra layer and add their own version of Expertise (which IMO is a bad mechanic) which further compounds the issue. Player skill is present in EVERY MMO out there. Real good players can overcome gear deficits and compete at a higher level, while some people can have the best gear and build ever thought of and still under-perform. This myth of "skill vs. gear" has been used as a crutch for people to substantiate whatever irritation they currently have. If people would just be objective and realize that its the gear AND player skill that should be measured it would be much easier to debate different "game imbalances".

There is nothing unfair about the PvP progression. I don't care much for the system, but it IS fair.

The main issue with PvP is that its war zones.

Apparently this is an epidemic. After seeing this happen and knowing why it happened, I told the group "when you are alone guarding a node and get stunned, don't break it...just sit there until it wears off, they are waiting for you to break it so they can hit you with the long stun and cap the node". His response? "I was stunned".

I was in a wz with a Commando that NEVER looked behind him while defending the left node. After saving it for the second time I said "hey man, watch behind you". His response? "S T F U man I'm dps'ing".

No offense, but that is a horrible idea for "open world pvp".

You have an emotional connection to this pvp? The best pvp environments I've ever been in were ones where people actually wanted to kill each other, like for real. In this game, I could care less who I kill or who kills me.

How come when the war zone starts people are standing about as far away from the speeder/door as possible, and thus, losing several seconds to get the upper hand on the other side.

If I was to pick the reasons that apply to SWTOR I would pick 5 and 6 from the major list, and 1 (the gear emphasis part, and substitute expertise for to much pve) and 2 from the minor list.

Yes it was -that- broken. Almost the worst PvP zone I've ever seen.

Just wait for Gus, Risha who?

I like NC the least of the four, but I find all of them to be boring. The number of "real good games" are such a small percentage of games played.

Its more about the mechanics than the class balance. War zones have to be managed on the premise of a small map, a timer, scoring etc. This means TTK has to be such that you don't have ridiculously long battles over a node. So in addition to damage formulas they have restricted the rez timer in such a way that if someone gets a rez, no one else in the group can be rezzed for five minutes. And I think there is only one combat rez if I'm not mistaken. Also, the range for attacks is shorter. In open world PvP a weapon should fire in the 50 - 65m range, but for war zones that might be excessive, hence a 30m range. These two mechanics alone (and there is more) are pretty important to open world pvp. Why? Most people, especially when thinking about fighting over bases, want long sustained fights that make you feel like you are in an actual battle. Rezzes are important to keep that battle going, especially when you are on the side with lesser numbers. Otherwise, here are two scenarios you will see often in an RvR lake type situation: 1. You roll the other side. Now you wait several minutes for the next fight because they are spawned across the map somewhere. You get rolled defending a base/objective in 2 minutes because the TTK is so short; forget about getting back and saving it, its over. It would at least be nice to fight for awhile before losing it. 2. Short ranged attacks make the zerging worse. Why? There is no range support for your melee. You send in the melee classes to provide some sort of "front", you need some range support with actual range to cover them. Otherwise what happens is, and did happen in Ilum and even in regular PvP in places like Black Hole, you simply counterattack because everyone is basically within 30m of each other. Fine for a war zone, but removes all sort of tactical thought for positioning etc. The reverse is also true on a side with lesser numbers. You need to buy time as you are being rushed. Having that 60m range allows the smaller force to stay mobile, slow the other side down, maybe chew a few on their way in before you get overran. Right now, that is unlikely to happen. I've never seen a game with ranged attacks so short as this one. Again, for war zones I get it, but for open world, these issues among others are totally the opposite of what you want to create an open world "battle" type of environment where fights can last for prolonged periods of time.

The real problem with open world PvP in this game goes beyond the accurate points about the zones being wrong for it in way or another. Even if they build a great open world PvP concept its going to be lackluster. Why? This game is totally balanced around war zones, and the things they have to do to make war zones "make sense" are in many ways contrary to what makes open world PvP "work". And I can't think of any way they will be able to create game mechanics that respond to both correctly.

Outlaws den isn't all that great anyway if you are into fighting the other side. Anyone can click their character into PvP mode anywhere in game and fight.

I've been having a lot of fun pvp'ing at Black Hole, always a fight to be found. Ilum was a terribly designed open world pvp zone. From being ugly to a reward system that makes no sense, to the design of the map and how objectives were taken, all bad. The arms crates only made it worse. I'm fine waiting until they come out with something that makes sense. In the meantime there is still Black Hole and the Ilum daily quest area for me.

we do on proph of 5, I have had open world fights in Black Hole just about anytime I feel like going down there...we had a back and forth battle with 20+ on each side on friday night that lasted over an hour. No rewards, just fighting...imagine that, people pvp'ing without getting a war hero helmet for it.

And yet somehow many of us managed to PvP in other games where there was some sort of point system for killing the other side. How did it work in those other games but apparently won't work in SWTOR?

If the game system is to reward for PvP, then world PvP should have gains. Every game out there has some sort of -valor- system and you earn valor by killing the other side. There is nothing new or novel about the concept.

+1...and yet, it doesn't sink in for people...

The people that are worried about numerical odds should just play on the side with the numbers; what is left of us will manage as we always have against those "numbers advantages". The reason Ilum was so atrocious with "the numbers" was the design of the zone, and the entire "system". There has been a lot of mention lately about the effect of separating the factions to the fleets. I agree with the premise. While I do not think ganking low ranked players while questing is fun pvp, mixing the factions in various hub cities is a good thing. The PvP'ers will flag themselves for PvP and go to it, the others won't. SWG had ths perfectly worked out, it can work here too. As for the open zones...well they are fine when done properly. Warhammer had a great RvR system. The people that played will remember "realm pride" and "faction pride". People played because they wanted to kill the other side with impunity. THAT is what makes good PvP, not a new helmet from the War Hero vendor. In this game there is no sense of faction, no sense of wanting to blow the other side to oblivion. Its all "gets my gearz plox" b.s.

The PvP in this game (so far) is so over-regulated that its almost PvE. Expertise is a big fail, there does not need to be separate gear and armor for PvP/PvE. Its unfortunate that people got sold that line of crap. As far as "PvP'ers" leaving the game...well that really depends, its a full list. In my circle of friends and guilds, we are focused on world PvP. But there is none. Most of us in my circle don't really like war zones and think they are cute little parlor games. On the other hand, there are people that LOVE war zones. They can't get ENOUGH huttball in their lives. Those people would be happy and staying with the total focus on war zones right?

I agree with you OP, but the answer is: WoW trained an entire generation of MMO gamers. As for world PvP...yeah its too bad they put their focus on war zones and not world PvP.

The healing may be fine, but the rez portion is the dumbest version I've seen in any game.