! The New and Improved "Shadowstep" Bill for Concealment !

[epicdude]

/signed

[Sinovia]

/signed

 

Operative is amazing in pugs, but in rated WZs you are gonna get shutdown. You guys are forgetting as well that we are getting our burst taken away, yet again. This is the third dps nerf to the class. Currently wearing the best gear you can possibly attain in the game and if i face a premade it's nearly impossible to take a target down unless you find them alone around a corner trying to run. The class is going to need something to close the gap, i dont care what it is but it needs a gap closer.

[Iyasu]

/signed

[ebigz]

I like this idea, and the name for the ability.

[Savun]

/sign

 

Does anyone think that any BW statistics on operatives are garbage. Since operatives have a much smaller pool of players because of nerfs and difficult mechanics, the ones that stuck with the class are more likely skilled players and the bad players choose the easier class. And if anyone wants a good laugh check sorc forums about consumption nerf. Guess they'll have to learn resource management, the poor lambs.

[epicdude]

signed

 

 

 

again

[Rapto]

Bioware stop being lazy and code this ability in the game.

 

I'm going to use WoW as an example, but there is a reason why mutilate rogues are not viable in endgame pvp (hint: SHADOWSTEP)

[justduet]

Idk about the lack of LOS, but yes please wtb shadowstep.

I'm glad I like healing though, cuz that seems like what I'll be doing in 1.2.

[Synx]

/signed

[LunacyJK]

Operatives are fine now as heal or dd, they will still be fine after 1.2. Even in the "bad state" we are in I easily pull 400k+ dmg in every huttball. If anything I agree with the slight nerf in 1.2, healers can't do **** vs an Op.

 

All this talk of "shadowstep" is getting old, we don't need it! Learn to look at your surroundings on how to place yourself but also look at enemy animations.....so east to predict the knockback.

 

The only thing I would like to see is, if I'm out of attacking/being attacked due to los, there to be a 6sec timer so I can restealth.

 

And also crouch cover is incredibly op against melee, people that don't use it or have its bound are just gimping themselves. All the talk about wars can charge bla bla bla.....hint use crouch cover and watch them be confused and walk to you. Snipe+EP is awesome damage and should be used whenever 15+m.

 

Conceal needs a nerf for straight out dmg for those of us that can actually play the class. But I can imagine for all those crying for a shadowstep, then it must be torture.

Edited April 2, 2012 by LunacyJK

[Bocherel]

Operatives are fine now as heal or dd, they will still be fine after 1.2. Even in the "bad state" we are in I easily pull 400k+ dmg in every huttball. If anything I agree with the slight nerf in 1.2, healers can't do **** vs an Op.

 

All this talk of "shadowstep" is getting old, we don't need it! Learn to look at your surroundings on how to place yourself but also look at enemy animations.....so east to predict the knockback.

 

The only thing I would like to see is, if I'm out of attacking/being attacked due to los, there to be a 6sec timer so I can restealth.

 

And also crouch cover is incredibly op against melee, people that don't use it or have its bound are just gimping themselves. All the talk about wars can charge bla bla bla.....hint use crouch cover and watch them be confused and walk to you. Snipe+EP is awesome damage and should be used whenever 15+m.

 

Conceal needs a nerf for straight out dmg for those of us that can actually play the class. But I can imagine for all those crying for a shadowstep, then it must be torture.

 

 

 

 

First off, anyone can do fine with the class, it does not mean that we are on par with others classes.

 

Second all classes got a gap closer or a knock back of some sort but us, no matter how good you play your class it wont change that fact.

 

Third, if you engage a melee then he has his gap closer up and a good player will jump on you. Counting on the opponent being bad does not help your argument.

 

 

At the end of the day, regardless how good you are you will perform better on another class because you have less tools on this one.

 

Ps. I agree with you on snipe+ep its a great burst ability.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Bocherel

[LunacyJK]

Okay let me rephrase what I said...Op are in a great shape as it is. No class can burst harder or better. No class can heal better, and no class can cc aswell.

 

Why does everyone think that we must have a gap closer to be effective. If ops had a gap closer we would be on the border of insanely op....why?...because of our burst.

The only reason a class can survive the burst is either they are guarded, pop a longish cd, or they can cc break>stun/sprint away, or knockback....Give an op a knockback and they are looking at 100% uptime if used correctly. This is beyond overpowered for a class that is based on burst dmg.

 

Less tools.....rofl care to explain to me where our less tools come from...All I can see is we dont have a knockback or a reliable speed effect (ie sprint). Yet we have 2 single target stuns, an aoe stun, a slow, an immobolize, a movement speed breaker, a shield (granted its pretty useless), we have best aoe, solid ranged burst, o and vanish..

 

I have played several other classes, and whilst they have it easier to do a job, no other class is anywhere near as bursty (maybe a mm sniper if they can get perfect los). I am known as one of the best operatives on the server I play on wether I heal or dd, and by NO means is this class in need of a gap closer.

[Chasidim]

Less tools.....rofl care to explain to me where our less tools come from...All I can see is we dont have a knockback or a reliable speed effect (ie sprint). Yet we have 2 single target stuns, an aoe stun, a slow, an immobolize, a movement speed breaker, a shield (granted its pretty useless), we have best aoe, solid ranged burst, o and vanish..

 

 

let's see:

 

two melee! stuns: check

aoe stun? no, it's a mezz.

a slow: check

a root: only if skilled

a movement speed breaker? what is that supposed to be?

a shield: yeah pretty weak

best aoe: are you kidding? 3 hits. everyone in 5 miles knows, when we cast it. animation delay. 3 hits? hello death from above.

solid range burst: all right, now i am sure, you don't even play an operative. snipe + rifle shot + overload shot (carbine burst) = burst?

vanish: check.

[LunacyJK]

two melee! stuns: check

aoe stun? no, it's a mezz.

a slow: check

a root: only if skilled

a movement speed breaker? what is that supposed to be?

a shield: yeah pretty weak

best aoe: are you kidding? 3 hits. everyone in 5 miles knows, when we cast it. animation delay. 3 hits? hello death from above.

solid range burst: all right, now i am sure, you don't even play an operative. snipe + rifle shot + overload shot (carbine burst) = burst?

vanish: check.

 

A movement speed breaker? Hmm evasion springs to mind, just alone that shows as you put it "dont even play an operative"

Best aoe in my eyes our aoe is the hardest hitting aoe, so it has animation delay...it forces people to leave that position or get hit by something that hits like a truck...death from above....lol i usually just eat it as it doesnt do as much dmg as people actually think!

Ranged burst we are solid in that, and if anyone thinks differently then l2p is called. Ofc we cant beat a pure ranged dd in terms of ranged dmg, but our burst is pretty sick

[irdc]

 

False dilemma, you lose.

 

Here is the more likely explanation. The situation: they invited you pre-nerf, they don't invite you OR any other player playing your class/spec combo post-nerf. The most plausible explanation is: your class isn't the class of the month; quite the opposite. If they'd invite all kind of other conceal ops to rated, but not you, then your explanation #1 is more plausible. Your explanation #2 is pathetic, why would he play with such people over a long period of time?

 

Many people join guilds for the wrong reasons. Some believe that certain guilds will carry them. Some believe that guilds are the key to rated. Some believe they will be more feared if they are in a certain guild. There's a whole host of reasons why people join guilds these days that doesn't involve around surrounding yourself with awesome people.

 

Thankfully, Bioware is including solo rated warzones so the issue becomes moot. As a player, you have the option to queue solo if you want to.

Edited April 2, 2012 by irdc

[Ahebish]

I've used Snipe/ExProb countless times to hit enemies that I cannot close the gap on. Know why? Because there's fire/in combat run speed making it a PITA to get to the target, and I can knock off a good 4k with a adrenal/snipe/exprobe. That will usually be enough to kill/put a severe dent in the squishy sorc who just blew his bubble running thru the fire because he was scared of the Operative out of stealth.

 

If you aren't using every ability you have as an Operative, and let me say this nice and slow for you kids that think run/gun knife kills COD style are all we're good for:

 

you are doing it wrong.

 

I have to admit this post made me laugh.

 

I'm going to leave it at that.

[Ahebish]

Okay let me rephrase what I said...Op are in a great shape as it is. No class can burst harder or better. No class can heal better, and no class can cc aswell.

 

Why does everyone think that we must have a gap closer to be effective. If ops had a gap closer we would be on the border of insanely op....why?...because of our burst.

The only reason a class can survive the burst is either they are guarded, pop a longish cd, or they can cc break>stun/sprint away, or knockback....Give an op a knockback and they are looking at 100% uptime if used correctly. This is beyond overpowered for a class that is based on burst dmg.

 

Less tools.....rofl care to explain to me where our less tools come from...All I can see is we dont have a knockback or a reliable speed effect (ie sprint). Yet we have 2 single target stuns, an aoe stun, a slow, an immobolize, a movement speed breaker, a shield (granted its pretty useless), we have best aoe, solid ranged burst, o and vanish..

 

I have played several other classes, and whilst they have it easier to do a job, no other class is anywhere near as bursty (maybe a mm sniper if they can get perfect los). I am known as one of the best operatives on the server I play on wether I heal or dd, and by NO means is this class in need of a gap closer.

 

Oh you mean the burst damage that was nerf'd 4 times and pending a 5th consecutive nerf?

 

I can't wait to hear you QQ in 1.2. You are going to realize very quickly how unkillable most if not all other classes will be then.

 

We aren't asking for more damage we are asking for more utility/survivability.

 

Small price to pay for us getting nerf'd 5 *********** times in a row.

 

Thing that cracks me up most though... Sorcs are crying worse about their FIRST nerf than we ever did. Soon as they get nerf'd it's game breaking, but we get nerf'd 5 times in a row and it's called "Rebalancing"

Edited April 2, 2012 by Ahebish

[Gaucho]

/signed

 

Operative is amazing in pugs, but in rated WZs you are gonna get shutdown. You guys are forgetting as well that we are getting our burst taken away, yet again. This is the third dps nerf to the class. Currently wearing the best gear you can possibly attain in the game and if i face a premade it's nearly impossible to take a target down unless you find them alone around a corner trying to run. The class is going to need something to close the gap, i dont care what it is but it needs a gap closer.

 

^

 

This right here. In a group 8v8 rated. Your operative is a wasted spot. Just bring a tankassin instead.

[Bocherel]

Okay let me rephrase what I said...Op are in a great shape as it is. No class can burst harder or better. No class can heal better, and no class can cc aswell.

hm, no.

 

 

 

The only reason a class can survive the burst is either they are guarded, pop a longish cd, or they can cc break>stun/sprint away, or knockback

 

You mean what any decent player would do 80% of the time?

 

 

 

I have played several other classes, and whilst they have it easier to do a job, no other class is anywhere near as bursty (maybe a mm sniper if they can get perfect los). I am known as one of the best operatives on the server I play on wether I heal or dd, and by NO means is this class in need of a gap closer.

 

I do just as much burst on a commando, it's just reversed, first you grind two grav then you use high imp + salv + dem : time 7.5sec necessary and from range.

 

 

A movement speed breaker? Hmm evasion springs to mind, just alone that shows as you put it "dont even play an operative"

It's a two edged sword, you need this to vanish properly as well.

 

 

Best aoe in my eyes our aoe is the hardest hitting aoe, so it has animation delay...it forces people to leave that position or get hit by something that hits like a truck...death from above....lol i usually just eat it as it doesnt do as much dmg as people actually think!

 

Well no, you are just plain wrong on this one.

 

5500-6k damages in 2.5/3 seconds

 

Opposed to a 2.5-3 sec casting time to do 3500-4k in 9sec

Edited April 2, 2012 by Bocherel

[Hextasy]

Why does everyone think that we must have a gap closer to be effective. If ops had a gap closer we would be on the border of insanely op....why?...because of our burst.

Lets get this straight, you are talking about PvP? Have you read all posts about the problem with Huttball? Have you ever been kited as an op? Have you actually read the thread title? Because the topic is not about operative class. The topic is about concealment. I already pointed that out twice now, I don't understand how a person can be this daft provided you read the thread.

 

The only reason a class can survive the burst is either they are guarded, pop a longish cd, or they can cc break>stun/sprint away, or knockback....Give an op a knockback and they are looking at 100% uptime if used correctly. This is beyond overpowered for a class that is based on burst dmg.

Wrong. If they got a healer with them, you won't dent them. You say focus the healer? What if it is only 2 healers? You can burst nothing. If it is a tank you cannot burst them, they got CDs. Tank and healer? Forget it. Even a skilled healer alone would not die from our burst in equal gear. Also, OP never spoke about knockback. Have you read the post?

 

Less tools.....rofl care to explain to me where our less tools come from...

I certainly never said this. I got 7 less keybinds on my sage healer (with all options except double strike keybound) compared to my conceal operative. These are the only 2 classes I got at l50.

 

All I can see is we dont have a knockback or a reliable speed effect (ie sprint). Yet we have 2 single target stuns, an aoe stun, a slow, an immobolize, a movement speed breaker, a shield (granted its pretty useless), we have best aoe, solid ranged burst, o and vanish..

Best AoE -> Death From Above a BH gets at l10 or so, and it is better AoE. It does not have a 3 sec channel which can be interrupted before it is cast, and it is quicker to be applied. Orbital Strike you need to plan, and your enemies need to keep standing in it.

Solid ranged burst -> All other ranged classes will own you 1v1 on ranged. Against them you MUST get in 10m or melee range, simple as that.

 

As for you being best op as DPS or healer. You don't matter. The average player who plays the class matters.

[Hextasy]

I don't need to give alternatives to things the developers aren't going to give us.

Does not matter if the developers give it or not, that does not make it less or more valid.

 

Stealth is their perceived gap closer for Operatives, and that's not going to change. They aren't going to magically deem us worthly of Force-user utility(ie: Force Leap) when being a force-user is the major draw to this game.

The proposal as put forth has nothing to do with Force usage.

 

We have a mixed toolkit of 30m, 10m, and 4m. If my targets outside of 10m, chasing them down isn't likely to be a viable option in the state of the live game, or the foreseeable future.

The ones from 30m range are not viable. We're concealment, not sniper. We're a melee class with some ranged options, but the ranged options are last resort.

 

The only thing in your entire post which makes sense is that stealth is the gap closer. Except, if you start to burst and are knocked off the ramp you... guess what you don't have and won't be able to have any time soon if your opponent has the brains of something akin more than a rat... stealth! Besides, running around you'd be too late.

 

Go l2p or reroll a jedi, those are your options.

Again false dilemma. Edited April 5, 2012 by Sireene
rude

[Ryemfoh]

Oh you mean the burst damage that was nerf'd 4 times and pending a 5th consecutive nerf?

 

I can't wait to hear you QQ in 1.2. You are going to realize very quickly how unkillable most if not all other classes will be then.

 

We aren't asking for more damage we are asking for more utility/survivability.

 

Small price to pay for us getting nerf'd 5 *********** times in a row.

 

Thing that cracks me up most though... Sorcs are crying worse about their FIRST nerf than we ever did. Soon as they get nerf'd it's game breaking, but we get nerf'd 5 times in a row and it's called "Rebalancing"

 

I've been confused by this "5th nerf" claim for a while now, so I decided to take 10 mins to read through the patch notes and compile a list:

 

• Imperial Agent
  Operative
  The tooltip for Acid Blade now displays the correct information.
  
• Imperial Agent
  Bug Fixes
  Corrected an issue where activating cover, using Explosive Probe, and then using Snipe could cause Snipe to be interrupted.
  
• Imperial Agent
  Operative
  
  • Acid Blade: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.
    
  • Jarring Strike: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.
    
  • Hidden Strike: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.
    

  [*]Imperial Agent

  Operative

  Medical Therapy: Kolto Probe and Recuperative nanotech will now properly benefit from this skill.

 

Now I've been arguing for a while that Operatives are fine*, but I must say, putting this list together has opened my eyes. I mean, check it out:

 

• 1.0.1: BOOM! Right off the bat - Operative nerf! Man, I miss that incorrect AB tooltip - it was the only fun thing about this class. And no other classes effected?? The dev's really messed up with Ops I tell ya.
  
• 1.1.0: Ok, I can deal with the AB tooltip nerf, but man *** is this?? I'd exploited the EP -> Snipe bug to confuse my enemies literally tens of times, and they take it away? Way to go BW ... I guess I'll just have to stick to 1-shotting bads with my OP AB+HS.
  
• 1.1.1: This is getting out of hand .. they took away my "I WIN" buttons This change actually made me put some of my other abilities back on my ability bar. Fail BW .. epic fail. Oh, and making Jarring Strike not fill the resolve bar? Who's idea was that?
  
• 1.1.4: W ... T ... F?? You fixed an ability in the Med tree? I just ... I can't ...
  

 

So yeah, 4 nerfs. Who would have thought. I must say, the tooltip nerf still hurts the most, but you know what Cat Stevens said about first cuts

 

(end sarcasm)

 

* By "fine" I mean "not broken" / "can be effective if played right" / "not as bad as people claim". Of course I would love a gap closer, but I don't think it's as essential as others say it is, and am optimistic that the new cover changes will help.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[SWToRBurns]

Does not matter if the developers give it or not, that does not make it less or more valid. It's valid in that if it's not in the design concept for a class you're facing a huge u;phill battle to try to change something YOU perceive as a needed core ability to CONCEALMENT.

 

The proposal as put forth has nothing to do with Force usage.

 

The proposal is to have a gap closer equal to Force Leap/Speed/Jet Charge is it not? With the exception of jet charge, those are all utilities given to force users/BH based on the canon of their class type. You have seen in the movies Jedi jump extraordinary distances, move at greater than normal speed, and BH (Bobba Fett) Leap to a target to engage them. You never see an Imperial Navy officer or Han Solo use a personal teleportation device to get behind an enemy. You DO see Han Solo use STEALTH to creep up on unsuspecting guards to incapacitate them.

 

The ones from 30m range are not viable. We're concealment, not sniper. We're a melee class with some ranged options, but the ranged options are last resort.

How is an instant possible 4k+ (less if missed snipe) not viable? YOU don't like it, as YOU think it's clunky and ineffective. I think it's a viable alternative when the target is at low health. Different strokes friend, just because YOU don't feel it's an option doesn't mean everyone else, or the devs believe the same.

 

The only thing in your entire post which makes sense is that stealth is the gap closer. Except, if you start to burst and are knocked off the ramp you... guess what you don't have and won't be able to have any time soon if your opponent has the brains of something akin more than a rat... stealth! Besides, running around you'd be too late.

Then just leave when you get huttball, or reroll Republic, your arguement is for 1/4 posiible WZ's in 1.2, Strawman more. Even if you like huttball, go back to Mid, get up on a platform and await a pass or cap the ball after the score, and pass to your sorc/sin buddy waiting to be a hero BC. One goal does not a huttball make/break.

 

 

 

Again false dilemma.

THE DEVS SHOULD NOT make the knee jerk reactionary nerfs to a spec just because we blow their bread and butter (weekend warrior players, usually of the sorc/sage variety) into the next galaxy.

 

We are not the one dimensional class you claim we are. Yes we are most effective and deadly in the 4-10M range, but we do have options past that. You burying your head in the sand and claiming no one's opinion but your own is right make you look silly.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Sireene
reply to edited post

[Bocherel]

by "fine" I mean "not broken" / "can be effective if played right" / "not as bad as people claim". Of course I would love a gap closer, but I don't think it's as essential as others say it is, and am optimistic that the new cover changes will help.

 

I agree right now, to kill, we don't need it, but just like the shadow would not need his force run. However we will need it for better utility in WZ regarding the incoming rated WZ imho

[HanfordBlows]

/signed

 

To elaborate on a conversation many are having on this board about Explosive Probe/Snipe being compared to Force Charge, Force Pull, Grappling Hook and many other abilities - how are these abilities remotely similar? One is a ranged attacking ability, and all the others are situational gap closing abilities.

 

The usage of Explosive Probe is many times warranted after your Debilitate/Sever Tendon has worn off following your cookie cutter opener. Your opponent has either Stunned or Rooted you, and you now have a decision to make: while waiting for your melee cooldowns to finish, and also to get back into melee range, which abilities are most appropriate to utilize? If the target is within 10m, obviously an Operative will want to focus on immediately getting back into melee range where 85% of its damage output is generated. Sever Tendon is your first option to root the enemy and close the gap. If Sever Tendon is on cooldown, Overload Shot despite its hefty energy cost can continue to put pressure on the opponent. Frag Grenade is also a great option as its something you can use on the run.

 

If your opponent is able to create a gap larger than 10m, your options become limited as you are now unable to close the gap with the slight exception of running 10-20% faster than some classes. At this moment, it would be perfectly appropriate to analyze whether or not to continue the fight. You can either reset, or if your target is high priority I.e. a healer or ball carrier, a tactic I find works extremely well is to throw Corrosive Dart on the target and immediately follow with an Explosive Probe. The DoT tick will trigger the explosion (no worrying about Snipe landing) and will also put out a fair bit of damage that will more often than not, coupled with EPs damage, kill a low-HP target.

 

Situationally, EP is a great tool, but is by no means a legitimate gap closer, it is just another ranged ability.

 

A Shadowstep mechanic would be great, but I would also be very happy with an extended range to the Sever Tendon ability. Of course this would have to be thoroughly tested to determine if a 10 second cooldown on a ~30m root/snare ability is too short.

 

Operatives surely need some sort of added utility to become viable in 1.2. These are just my 2 cents.

Edited April 3, 2012 by HanfordBlows