! The New and Improved "Shadowstep" Bill for Concealment !

[GeorgeWashington]

/sign I would like to see the scrapper use the animation from disappearing act in their ability.

[Gyakujou]

/signed

 

operatives need something like shadowstep as a gap closer particularly in wzs with different levels like huttball. However it should require line of sight. otherwise, it will be op for ball running.

[Hextasy]

Funny, the one PTS WZ screenshot I remember seeing which clearly had 1 group of Healers + Tanks and 1 mixed group, the Operative had a huge damage figure, and their team won even though they barely managed to kill anyone

1 screenshot, woah, call the cops we got a screenshot where an IA/scoundrel is highest DPS!

 

First of all, this is from a previous patch which has to be said to put it into context.

 

Second, I don't give a flying **** about the amount of healing or damage someone does in a WZ since the statistic alone requires context. Since I lack the context (I am not God seeing everything) I care about if they play for objectives and I'd rather give my MVP to a person I observed who played well in that regard. I don't take screenshots too serious becasue they don't tell anything about the circumstances (could be pre-made to make a point, or photoshopped, it does not say anything about anyone's gear or skill, and furthermore the way MVP votes are done proves the point players are completely unaware of how well players have performed). Also, the statistics prove little to nothing about performance, objective play. Screenshots are good material to laugh at tho. Now, if you insist: It was a long match of 2x7=14 minutes, in which his DPS was 775. He never died (means lots of uptime in combat), and only had 15 kills (tho still the highest of all players this means approx 1 kill a minute). He was either kept alive, not focused upon, had high expertise (his HP does not reflect that), or combo of that. This is further underlined by the fact the enemy team had 4 healers, and the friendly team had 2. This means enemy team has good defense (easy for them to keep enemy from bombing), but worse offense (hard for them to bomb). For the DD scoundrel this means the offense is hard, but the defense is easy. Now, either their healers are able to keep people up while the few DPS kill other players, or they are not able to do so and they lose on amount of deaths because the healers are being focused (objective play, which is difficult to prove via screenshot). This is reflected by the lack of successful bombs (zero vs zero). As you can see the healers had least amounts of kills which underlines the fact the DD put pressure on the healers and when people died it was the healers (9 out of 15 deaths were healers). Now, he did 5k damage with his biggest hit. You do realize that with 0 death and 15 kills over 14 minutes he did not kill much for one, and second he was able to do damage constantly. The whole flippin' time. What exactly is your point? This proves nothing. Actually, if anything, this is normal, _if_ the operative is in constant combat. The latter is logical because both teams have many healers, who are being focused. If I take into account my RS hits for 717-868 with full champion + a few BM (about same health as him, 15,8k) I can't say he did anything extraordinary. In fact, if you take the healers, 1 of them did more healing than he did damage, and other one was close. If the scoundrel was so awsum, then why weren't their healers? Granted, he was not slacking either, tho they were not able to win on objectives despite his effort and more important as I already hinted the amount of output you do says NOTHING about how you played for objectives. I repeat: the amount of output you do (even healing wise) says NOTHING about your performance. NOTHING. For a player it may meansomething, but since player did not see everything he cannot judge unbiased. For the personae who only see the screenshot it means EVEN LESS! It lacks context. Do you understand the impact of this? Let me give you an example: it means that if you are doing Alderaan and your job is to solo defend a turret (not my style, I pref 2 since 1v1+1-2 stealth is zerged faceroll, but OK) and the enemy decides to attack you two times with 2, you call inc in time, you get help from 1 person, you defend well but your stats will NOT reflect this at all. Your stats reflect you were almost AFK, but you defended and called incs and asked for and received help when required; you played well, you did your job, people who helped you also did their job well (in this specific context). Whereas if you got 6 enemies on mid and 2 friendly on mid and the 2 friendly are unable to interrupt the enemy because they are focused on healer is terrible play and is NOT reflected by ANY kind of statistics!! Tho Alderaan isn't Voidstar, there are still 2 points to defend instead of 3 and leaving one completely alone is stupid due to ninja cap altho if enemy has no stealth and you can see it well from middle you're good to go. So please, spare me these screenshots, save them for the children to feel co0l.

 

Third, well, I wonder about sample size since after patch 1.2 was released I've seen one conceal ops and 2 scrapper scoundrel in all my games (1 of those scrapper scoundrel is a guildie of my sage). And I play my IA on a relatively high population realm. The ops I see are either hybrid or pure medicine. Gosh, why would that be...? It is just a trend of course.

 

Even a fresh Stats grad knows that your base size has a big influence on any conclusions you can draw from a sample set of data. This is a fundamental principal in any research field

In my country we learn that in last grades of elementary school. But it is irrelevant here as it does not prove your point (not disproves his); it only makes a case for the argument BioWare hired someone for data analysis with a brain size larger than a peanut. However, it may as well be possible that the statistics are intentionally skewed or not applied in an unbiased manner because BioWare wants to make the ops DPS intentionally an unpopular class. Why? Well, Georg Zeller said it himself.

 

I dispute they are unbiased, for a very good reason: not only that quote, it also appears BioWare is unable to realize the operative brings NOTHING to the table in PvE and PvP. No utility whatsoever, no raid CDs (or very situational PvP, again useless in Huttball, in contrast to other classes), even the stealth isn't unique. Why would they be accurate in their data analysis, and apply this unbiased? And should data analysis also include class complexity? My only reference point is a level 50 sage healer and a level 40 powertech tank. If I compare either with conceal operative the other classes are much easier to play, and more forgiving. On my powertech for example even if I completely screw my rotation and am full heat I can in no time still grapple, jet charge, dart, missile; former 2 are strong objective-based game changer (and in Huttball a killer) the latter 2 make the PvP tank able to tank even though not doing any output DPS-wise. I find the compare unfair because it is a tank versus a stealth DD, but still. Nevermind the utility of force speed, rescue, knockback, all 3 very good in all WZs; operative/scoundrel has no reply to such. If I compare my other 2 chars with medicine, well, I don't even have space for all the actions I need as medicine. Now, in patch 1.2 they made class stacking more viable thanks to buff from chapter 3+ character on same server. Which means a rerolling marauder will get the ops buff! They're practically endorsing it. In other words in other fields than raw DPS they are in my viewpoint INCOMPETENT to make a reasonable class balance. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it is for sure real, and I don't understand how they can be unaware. I already know what you'd reply to that "it is irrelevant in this context" well, why exactly? If they are incompetent in that particular way, why would they be competent to read statistics correct and reply to statistics in a correct manner?

 

It is very unlikely that "averages" - even when weighted for sample size - are viewed in isolation (the "pie chart" argument). More likely they will be looking at a variety of measures like "Burst DPS", "Energy Neutral DPS", "Low Energy DPS", etc. We already have indications that they evaluate things such as combat length vs other classes, and control abilities, not just pure damage output or win/loss ratios.

(Again, see above and question what you wrote in that context.)

 

If the class is hard to play (and the energy management is very relevant in this context) then this would skew the operative to top player's performance. After all, if the difference between DPS between a good operative and an average (assuming similar gear) then the result is that the top has to be nerfed which has repercussions for the average players.

 

IOW if you got 10/10 efficiency with full BM (or now full WH) + pre-nerf 1.2 or even < 1.1 and this is now 8/10 and an average player was able to 8/10 then they are now 6/10. If you put this in the context of a Huttball match with healers then skilled healers are able to survive a good conceal operative, but only if they position well. If the conceal operative isn't top geared they won't dent the healer and it makes the job of the healers much easier. This means that a mediocre conceal ops versus one mediocre healer with equal gear is likely to lose (read: not burst down the healer) because healers are more powerful and popular (together with tanks and smart positioning, in case of Huttball passing) which makes a bursting DPS like a conceal ops less efficient. Even a marauder/sentinel has a hard time in this context; I believe this is why BW buffed them, to combat the stacking of healers. The hegemony of conceal ops/scrapper scoundrels nuking down healers is over. If not only because you'd want 2 (8m) or 4 (16m) mara/sent in your raid team due to their raid CD utility (operative provides nothing here, sniper does tho, see also problem of class stack and buffs).

 

[*] I doubt there are enough skilled players in the game (let alone the community) to significantly skew the results of BW's metrics. There will always be bad / under-geared / lazy Operatives that bring down the numbers ... just like all the other classes.

Right and this is where you are wrong. If the class is hard to play to be efficient, or inpopular, then the data is going to be skewed as was the argument from Blizzard why they did not give hunters the boost in AP in 4.3 (which later turned out they were WRONG with). You'll end up with only good players who play a bad, heavily nerfed and broken class in an efficient way to be on par with the average COTM/FOTM players.

 

The fact that they are nerfing Sorcerers, even though they have the largest sample of data (which definitely includes a huge number of terrible players) should be evidence enough that they know what they're doing when it comes to dealing with mis-matched sample sizes

That nerf was marginal at best, and healer sorc was had a tiny nerf only (to their life tap); for the rest they were boosted. The force armor ability speed bonus is relevant in PvP, and does not require the slight reduce in health cost for life tap equiv.

 

I don't think we will lose all the bad Operatives, hopefully just all the ones that QQ on these forums instead of trying to learn how to handle their class effectively, and to adapt to changes.

Right, like vanilla WoW lost "only a few" the bad feral cat druids. Keep dreamin', keep feeling awsum playing an inefficient class. Meanwhile, players who play to optimize will reroll sham.. err I mean sent/mara.

[Ryemfoh]

1 screenshot, woah, call the cops we got a screenshot where an IA/scoundrel is highest DPS!

 

First of all, this is from a previous patch which has to be said to put it into context.

Completely missed the point. You said "From PTS observation, healer and tank are much more efficient in WZ and than DD." ... I posted a screenshot from PTS (for patch 1.2 ... not sure where you got the "previous patch" from??) which showed a mixed team beating a Tank + Healer combo team. The fact that the Operative had huge damage numbers but hardly any kills was merely pointed out to illustrate the fact that killing things is not the main objective in a WZ, so the whole "Healer+Tank teams are OP because you can't kill them" mindset is incorrect.

 

snip

Some long rant about warzone objectives, screenshots and context. All completely irrelevant since you missed the original point (see above). For the record, I understand everything in the irrelevant rant, and even agree with some of it .. but it was still irrelevant and your statement about Healer+Tank combo's is still wrong.

 

In my country we learn that in last grades of elementary school. But it is irrelevant here as it does not prove your point (not disproves his); it only makes a case for the argument BioWare hired someone for data analysis with a brain size larger than a peanut. However, it may as well be possible that the statistics are intentionally skewed or not applied in an unbiased manner because BioWare wants to make the ops DPS intentionally an unpopular class. Why? Well, Georg Zeller said it himself.

GET OUT THE TIN HATS, IT'S ANOTHER CONSPIRACY!!

 

If you seriously think that BW is trying to get everyone to quit playing Operative then ... I dunno ... maybe you should quit playing Operative? Or stick with it just to mess with them - I don't really care. Just stop coming and posting inaccurate QQ garbage on the forums an expecting everyone to agree with you.

 

I dispute they are unbiased, for a very good reason: not only that quote, it also appears BioWare is unable to realize the operative brings NOTHING to the table in PvE and PvP. No utility whatsoever, no raid CDs (or very situational PvP, again useless in Huttball, in contrast to other classes), even the stealth isn't unique.

I'm going to snip here because after this you go into the same old "QQ other classes have abilities that we don't have" stuff that we've all read time and time again.

 

The reason for snipping is simple: You are wrong. Operatives have great utility in WZ's - if you haven't figured out how to use your tools to help your team, by all means ask questions and the community will try to help you.

 

In Operations we fill the role we were brought to fill - we kill stuff. Oh, and we can also save the day by throwing out a heal or combat res in an emergency ... I'd call that utility, but we already know that for some reason you don't because it's not "unique" to our class. Did you notice how in that other MMO they also consolidated many of the class buffs so you don't have to bring 1 of everything to raids anymore? Did you also complain about classes losing their "unique" utility then?

 

You know what other class had no "utility" according to your definition (until Cata)? Rogues. They didn't contribute a single thing to a raid (except Sap and Kick, which we have) until they got Smoke Bomb. Were Rogues top of melee damage? Sometimes. Sometimes they weren't. That's how it goes in MMO's, and someone with the experience you claim to have should know this. Patch to patch, things change. Classes get buffed, others get nerfed, life goes on. I really don't understand why you're so upset about this ... you claim you play "casual" now, but then go on to talk about benching players because of their class, and class stacking to kill bosses before the enrage - which is not necessary in this game unless you are significantly under-geared for the content ... that is not the "casual" approach to Operations imo.

 

Ever read the phrase: "Bring the player, not the class"? Many of the re-balancing / buff distribution decisions in that other MMO were made for exactly this reason, and you could argue the same for BW's decision on the Legacy buff system. We pick our best players for Operations, not because of their class, but because they know what they're doing and don't "stand in the fire".

 

Why would they be accurate in their data analysis, and apply this unbiased?

Uhmm ... professional pride? How about because they want to make the game better? Or just to stop the endless whining of their customers? You like to talk about context a lot, but that quote from GZ that you're so fond of is also completely out of context ... He didn't say that he hates Operatives, or that he wants everyone to stop playing them. The changes to PVP gearing (that you can now buy Champion equiv gear for credits, and BM gear much easier than before) were to address the stun-lock issue. The only Operative change which impacts PVP exclusively is the double-HS change which is annoying but not significant to me since I hardly ever used it anyway. All the other changes look like they were made to address sustained DPS from a PVE perspective.

 

They might have gotten it wrong - I've seen DPS parses ranging from the low 1200's to the mid-1400's, so clearly there is more work to be done by the community in figuring out how to utilise our tools to maximum efficiency.

 

In other words in other fields than raw DPS they are in my viewpoint INCOMPETENT to make a reasonable class balance. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it is for sure real, and I don't understand how they can be unaware. I already know what you'd reply to that "it is irrelevant in this context" well, why exactly? If they are incompetent in that particular way, why would they be competent to read statistics correct and reply to statistics in a correct manner?

Opinion. My opinion is that Operatives are fine, that we don't necessarily need to bring more to the table (see Rogue pre-Cata), and that we actually do bring stuff to the table that you don't seem to think is relevant (see off-healing / combat res).

 

(Again, see above and question what you wrote in that context.)

So your argument is "BW's metrics must be wrong because they are all idiots"? Even though you have no idea what their data says, or what they're measuring? I refer you to the timeless classic: "Assume makes an *** out of u and me"

 

blah blah skill cap blah Huttball opinions blah

 

Right and this is where you are wrong. If the class is hard to play to be efficient, or inpopular, then the data is going to be skewed as was the argument from Blizzard why they did not give hunters the boost in AP in 4.3 (which later turned out they were WRONG with). You'll end up with only good players who play a bad, heavily nerfed and broken class in an efficient way to be on par with the average COTM/FOTM players.

Firstly, you have no idea what their data is showing - so to claim that the small Operative community's figures are skewed because the only Operatives left in the community are all good is weak. Secondly, as I mentioned above, we simply don't have enough data yet to determine where Operatives are relative to other classes. If we are miles behind, we can expect this to be fixed at some point in the future (see point about MMO class balance over time).

 

That nerf was marginal at best, and healer sorc was had a tiny nerf only (to their life tap); for the rest they were boosted.

You forgot the bug fix which was (knowingly and unknowingly) allowing players to gain Force Bending on 2 abilities rather than just one ... and the Force Bending change which means they can't cast 1.5s big heals anymore - a massive PVP nerf.

 

Right, like vanilla WoW lost "only a few" the bad feral cat druids. Keep dreamin', keep feeling awsum playing an inefficient class. Meanwhile, players who play to optimize will reroll sham.. err I mean sent/mara.

I play many classes, because they are fun to play and I like the stories. I like my Operative the best, because he feels very powerful for killing stuff in PVP and PVE, and I love stealth mechanics. If you're not enjoying your Operative, try one of the other classes .. maybe it will be more to your liking

[Hextasy]

Completely missed the point. You said "From PTS observation, healer and tank are much more efficient in WZ and than DD." ... I posted a screenshot from PTS (for patch 1.2 ... not sure where you got the "previous patch" from??) which showed a mixed team beating a Tank + Healer combo team. The fact that the Operative had huge damage numbers but hardly any kills was merely pointed out to illustrate the fact that killing things is not the main objective in a WZ, so the whole "Healer+Tank teams are OP because you can't kill them" mindset is incorrect.

Yeah, you furthermore once again proven my point about statistics in WZ not matter. But you know what happens if the healer and tank are not dying while the enemy is trying to kill? The enemy won't capture anything IF your healer + tank combo is only slightly competent in interupting (Novare Coast is a bit different here because the channeling stacks and can be chained to eveneutally capture). Which is precisely what happened in the screenshot you posted. The result is that whichever team has the upper hand in the start (for example a quick ninja bomb, or a force speed turret cap) wins because the DDs can't dent the healer + tank combo. If the DDs are able to win first, then the healer + tank combo cannot do much. This means you get a stale pretty soon after the initial play making the initial play very important. The only reason in your screenshot the team won was because they outDPSed the healers, and not much. If their healers performed better this wouldn't have happened. In "that other game" if your team has 1 healer and theirs 3 you can stop from start you are most likely going to lose; it is the same here.

 

I'm going to snip here because after this you go into the same old "QQ other classes have abilities that we don't have" stuff that we've all read time and time again.

Yeah, keep ignoring it, but it is very important and applies. The reason you keep reading it is because there is no valid argument against it. These points are coherent and get rehashed, unrefuted. You will keep hearing them, not only from me. Why? Because I am not the only person who finds them valid.

 

The reason for snipping is simple: You are wrong. Operatives have great utility in WZ's - if you haven't figured out how to use your tools to help your team, by all means ask questions and the community will try to help you.

There is no utility the operative has other classes cannot do better barring silly things like a healer who can stealth but since the healer stays in combat this doesn't work well. Infiltration has big limits. But you think you are such an awesome player knowing these awesome utility tricks here is your chance to make me look like an idiot by sharing them:

 

Ryemfoh's 3 imba tricks which no other class can do showing the conceal op is a competitive class in PvP

 

Go ahead. Bonus points if they're about Huttball!

 

In Operations we fill the role we were brought to fill - we kill stuff.

Earlier you said kills don't matter, dang I hoped we finally had something to agree on

 

Oh, and we can also save the day by throwing out a heal or combat res in an emergency ... I'd call that utility, but we already know that for some reason you don't because it's not "unique" to our class.

LOL you can save the day with throwing out a heal in PvP? In what world are you living? You heal for **** all with your conceal gear/spec. I certainly call it utility though, but since the DPS from a sage or commando is higher than an operative and are ranged (ranged are preferred, and op does not have gap closers either; a serious issue in PvE and PvP; one you don't want to hear though sorry for rubbing it in again), why bother? It isn't a selling point because you lack elsewhere. Just because your car has tires doesn't mean it can drive because you still need to have a steering wheel. Just because a Mini is a car doesn't mean it drives comfortable. Fanboys will say: "it requires skill to drive a Mini which you lack." Doesn't matter, it still makes it less comfortable than a recent car. You know what is funny? You come across as an operative fanboy. Every time I come up with reasons why operative is lacking you dismiss it, ignore it, and say it is the same ol' stuff you been reading. Yeah guess why you been reading it because these people are tired of being inefficient on their main. If they didn't care they would SHUT UP AND REROLL. But they CARE. Why would someone care after they rerolled? Because they want to go back. If they wouldn't they'd give **** all about the class. For example, I don't really care much if sage/sorc is the most OP class in the game it won't make me go play mine more or less because I don't enjoy playing it much. I want my class to be competitive, not overpowered.

 

Did you notice how in that other MMO they also consolidated many of the class buffs so you don't have to bring 1 of everything to raids anymore? Did you also complain about classes losing their "unique" utility then?

I welcomed it with open arms, tho it also felt like classes lost their uniqueness. I welcomed they gave TW to mages. Although I think giving it to warlocks with different name would've been better: mage was already a popular class whereas warlock was not and further declined, and also many lets say not very smart players were playing mage and could not pop TW at the right moment whereas shamans had a rich experience with that. But guess what, we don't see that in this MMO. There is only one advanced class which can pop infiltration. There is only one advanced class which can pop inspiration. The list goes on. You cannot compare the balance in this game with Cataclysm. It isn't the same quality. I'd agree with you that Blizzard fixed class imbalance from TBC to Cata with great effort, but right I don't want to waste too much time/money as I did back then. I'm not going to give BioWare 5 years to fix this issue, I give them 2 months. By the way you still need almost every class in the game for buff/debuff and then utility, 25m has this way easier. Enlighten yourself: http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com

 

You know what other class had no "utility" according to your definition (until Cata)? Rogues. They didn't contribute a single thing to a raid (except Sap and Kick, which we have) until they got Smoke Bomb. Were Rogues top of melee damage? Sometimes. Sometimes they weren't. That's how it goes in MMO's, and someone with the experience you claim to have should know this. Patch to patch, things change. Classes get buffed, others get nerfed, life goes on. I really don't understand why you're so upset about this ... you claim you play "casual" now, but then go on to talk about benching players because of their class, and class stacking to kill bosses before the enrage - which is not necessary in this game unless you are significantly under-geared for the content ... that is not the "casual" approach to Operations imo.

Yep, and rogues were not a popular class either. They still had utility: Sprint, Evasion, Vanish, Cloak, and set bonuses. They had a spec with shadowstep. Sub rogue AoE reduce build is also a unique utility which made V&T HC trivial but this is a niche. Also, rogue was not popular in PvE indeed, but rogue was strong in PvP TBC, and rogues were often used to interrupt because it had one of the lowest CDs for interrupt.

 

Ever read the phrase: "Bring the player, not the class"? Many of the re-balancing / buff distribution decisions in that other MMO were made for exactly this reason, and you could argue the same for BW's decision on the Legacy buff system. We pick our best players for Operations, not because of their class, but because they know what they're doing and don't "stand in the fire".

Brilliant you quote that. Who actually believed it to be true? Perhaps more so in Cata. Yeah, I read that phrase, and it totally doesn't apply here. Like I said 1.2 class buff allows for class stacking, so players can pick the best performing class (I know you don't want to read that, I am sorry, it matters). Players who optimize will do that whereas a feral druid in vanilla was dead weight in your team. Do you remember TBC? Muru? You remember how we stacked shamans for chaining heroism? We see similar now with marauder. Deja vu, deva vu. You really cannot compare class balance SWTOR 1.0 or 1.1.5 or 1.2 with WoW 4.0 or 4.3. Well you can, but it isn't flyin'.

 

I play many classes, because they are fun to play and I like the stories. I like my Operative the best, because he feels very powerful for killing stuff in PVP and PVE, and I love stealth mechanics. If you're not enjoying your Operative, try one of the other classes .. maybe it will be more to your liking

Yeah, your operative is your main which was my point. I loved leveling up my operative, tho it was the easiest I leveled thus far. I also love the stories, and playing other classes in PvP/PvE teaches a lot.

[FiveOmens]

/signed

[Ryemfoh]

Yeah, you furthermore once again proven my point about statistics in WZ not matter.

I've never debated WZ "statistics" with you, in that other thread I said that I don't believe damage is ever "inconsequential" .. meaning that high damage figures are perfectly valid if they help your team achieve their objectives. The fact that the person in that thread's team didn't win their matches were not because (s)he had high damage numbers, it was because they had a losing strategy or the other team was just simply better than them.

 

In this thread I was refuting your blanket statement that in 1.2 Healer+Tank combo's are best for PVP. While the Healer+Tank combo is certainly strong, my belief is that a balanced team of skilled players will perform better than this gimmick team, simply because they have true DD who are able to put genuine pressure on the opposing Healer+Tank players, while the Healer+Tank combo is not really able to do much of anything except stay alive and interrupt caps. In fact with the PVP gear / expertise changes in 1.2 I think this is even more the case than it was in 1.1.

 

I do think that we might see more Powertech / Juggernaut DPS + guarded healer comp's running around, but really it was the same in WoW arena's where certain comp's dominated the team roster because they were easy, but you still had top players with unusual comps simply because they were more skilled than the majority of their opponents.

 

Yeah, keep ignoring it, but it is very important and applies.

I will keep ignoring it, just as you keep ignoring those who say that we can be effective in PVE / PVP with the tools that we've got - even though using those tools effectively might be a bit more difficult to master than some of the other classes. Again, if there is something that you're having trouble with, come here and ask questions - don't just look at abilities that other classes have and complain that we're not all the same.

 

There is no utility the operative has other classes cannot do better barring silly things like a healer who can stealth but since the healer stays in combat this doesn't work well. Infiltration has big limits. But you think you are such an awesome player knowing these awesome utility tricks here is your chance to make me look like an idiot by sharing them:

 

Ryemfoh's 3 imba tricks which no other class can do showing the conceal op is a competitive class in PvP

 

Go ahead. Bonus points if they're about Huttball!

When have I ever claimed that Operatives should be unique little flowers that are able to do things that no-one else can? Operatives fill a role in a team, and they are very effective at filling that role. We can kill stuff or just apply pressure to disrupt tactics, we can tie up a number of people at a node, we can off heal, we can AoE mez, we can burst out of stealth with the element of surprise.

 

The same could be said about a number of different classes (DPS Sorc / Merc can off heal, Assassins can stealth, Marauders can burst, etc, etc) - that is the point of having "roles" rather than just requiring certain classes. You repeatedly claim that we are not effective in PVP, I am simply saying that we are, and that you (or your team) simply haven't figured out how to utilise the abilities that we do have effectively.

 

In Operations we fill the role we were brought to fill - we kill stuff.

Earlier you said kills don't matter, dang I hoped we finally had something to agree on

Highlighted the relevant part. Again though - notice how I mentioned that we have a role, and that we fill it. Not that we are unique butterflies which every team is required to have. Bring the player, not the class ....

 

LOL you can save the day with throwing out a heal in PvP? In what world are you living? You heal for **** all with your conceal gear/spec. [snipped some other diatribe because this was enough to make the point]

I was actually talking about PVE here, but since you brought up PVP ... Your heals scale based on your gear/stat and talent choices. I don't know how you've spec'd / geared, but my KInj can easily crit over 5k in PVP. It's not something I choose to do often in PVP because usually it would be more effective for me to focus on peeling the attackers than on throwing out a heal. PVP matches are fluid beasts - you need to be able to think on your feet.

 

I welcomed it with open arms, tho it also felt like classes lost their uniqueness.

[snip]

By the way you still need almost every class in the game for buff/debuff and then utility, 25m has this way easier. Enlighten yourself: http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com

So you welcome spreading buffs in WoW where it was arguably less required because the raid's are bigger, yet for ToR you want each class to be required / unique? I am really struggling to follow your logic.

 

As for "almost every class" being required for 25m content, there the size of the group really makes that a non-issue. If you can find 25 people to raid with regularly, you can almost certainly find at least 1 of every class. In ToR the teams are smaller (yes, there are also fewer classes, but 14/8 is significantly less than 25/10), and their stated design goal is that any team comp made up of tanks, DD and healers should be able to clear the content.

 

They are striving for the "Bring the player" ideal, and sharing buffs through Legacy is a fairly simple way of achieving it.

 

[snip some stuff about rogues]Also, rogue was not popular in PvE indeed, but rogue was strong in PvP TBC

In our guild (the top Alliance guild on our server at the time, but not "progression" as such) we had a rogue throughout TBC, and he was frequently top / near-top of DPS charts. Sure his role might have been simplified to take advantage of his strengths for most fights (his job was almost always just "nuke the boss"), but he was good and effective at that role. In this game, every class is viable for end-game (and PVP imo) content. There is simply no need to class stack in the manner you've described in numerous posts.

 

Brilliant you quote that. Who actually believed it to be true? Perhaps more so in Cata.

Our entire guild believed it - in fact we thought the statement was non-sensical since that was how we'd always played. Any good casual (well .. we raided 6 days a week through Vanilla and TBC so it wasn't really casual) guild knows that picking a good player who can stay out the fire is better than picking a FOTM player who posts really awesome deeps for the 3 seconds he's alive ...

 

The only time class stacking was ever required in that game (and the only time it might be required in ToR) was by progression guilds going for world firsts with undergeared players, and to tune content for that 0.1% would be absurd.

 

Yeah, I read that phrase, and it totally doesn't apply here. Like I said 1.2 class buff allows for class stacking, so players can pick the best performing class

So in WoW, spreading buffs meant you could bring the player instead of the class, but in ToR spreading buffs means you can class stack?? It really feels like you are only seeing what you want to see. If this is what your GM is telling you, I'd advise you to find a new guild - preferably one not run by a FOTM ***.

 

Players who optimize will do that whereas a feral druid in vanilla was dead weight in your team. Do you remember TBC? Muru? You remember how we stacked shamans for chaining heroism? We see similar now with marauder. Deja vu, deva vu. You really cannot compare class balance SWTOR 1.0 or 1.1.5 or 1.2 with WoW 4.0 or 4.3. Well you can, but it isn't flyin'.

We had cat droods in Vanilla .. sure they were solidly mid-bottom table, but in a 40 man team it was easy to find space for a few extra combat res's ... made all the difference when we were learning new fights. I miss those days, where fights weren't all just gear checks, and you were fighting the mechanics not the enrage timer.

[iSunrider]

/signed

gap closer for op would be awesome.

[Flyingcookie]

/signed

gap closer for op would be awesome.

 

we NEED something like this now

[brezman]

/signed, but it'd be nice to be available to all specs as an operative/scoundrel.

 

Gap closers are needed by operatives for pve and pvp reasons.

[Pinkspawn]

Just gonna keep it going to see if a dev accidentally clicks on the operative forums and sees this.

/signed.

[utuwer]

/signed - one of forgotten Scrapper Scoundrels.

[Zajuir]

/signed

We need a gap closer on our Operatives.

[noodlehaus]

i remember in the agent quest line, on tatooine, we fought a changer (female) disguised as hawkins. she actually had something similar to shadow step.

[ShinRyuX]

/signed

[Gaucho]

A closer look at the problem

[ThanatosReaper]

/signed

[Daiyukie]

This would be overpowered and exploitable (the no line of sight thing could have all kinds of "stuck in geometry" bugs and "teleport through the wall to mid" type exploits), so I still think having a 30-45 second cooldown Vanish that lasts 2-4 seconds with speed increase 30-50% would be the best answer.

[dtebuev]

/signed

[Djhots]

/signed

 

Not sure what good this will do. EA/BW have all but abandon this game. When was the last content update? Get ready for that subs number to be a very low one. I hope I am wrong. I love this game and my Op.

[swifferdude]

Sorry but Imperial Agents are not known for breaking humanoid races with bare bones. Teleportation tech sounds more viable.

this

and I agree with op /signed

 

kool names btw

[swifferdude]

/signed

 

Not sure what good this will do. EA/BW have all but abandon this game. When was the last content update? Get ready for that subs number to be a very low one. I hope I am wrong. I love this game and my Op.

 

no... its been a week since last pathc woop-d-doo plus, ther was maintenence today, meaning, probs tomorow is nother patch, they didnt abondon this game, who told u tht?!

[Larry_Dallas]

This proposal is preposterous.

[Pizzel]

Signed

 

bioware plz give ops some love for once . people are unsubbing due to P techs now not stunlocking operatives

[Drogathen]

Can't say i agree with all this 'we need a gap closer' it's just moulding classes together instead of keeping them separate and distinct. I would much prefer to see something like a Talented Immunity to stun on Evasion high on the concealment tree. This would allow us to be abit more slippy, give some real use to that green shield other than clearing dots and ignoring white damage. Give us a gap closer and nothing can escape, and it's not that difficult pin something down apart from jumpers.