Sniper DPS 1.2 seriously broken.

[Belgaram]

I have been raiding 16 man Ops since January. I am full Rakata and have played every spec in the attempts to find the greatest raid DPS. I have played the Cull Spec, full MM, Lethality and Lethality Hybrid (current spec). I have min/maxed most of my gear to it's fullest. (Except on Test server where transfer went over before changes).

 

That said, I have been parsing my character in the attempt to fine tune my DPS to the best that I can and to find the spec with the most DPS. However, my test results are EXTREMELY disappointing. I was able to only hit a MAX DPS of 1479. However, my averages were anywhere from 900-1200. Considering every other class that was testing with me was able to sustain easily over 14-1500+ with little effort shows me that the class that is suppose to be extremely competetive is actually pretty broken.

 

Thinking it was me, I had the other snipers in the guild run their numbers and we were all consistently hitting around the same numbers 1100-1300. They say theoretically, that snipers should be doing 2K plus, I call BS. (These tests were all run on the practice dummy btw). Mercs, Marauders blow our numbers out of the water. Hell we even have a tank putting out 1400+.

 

I tried MM and focused on keeping energy above 60. I've used the Cull spec and focused on energy staying up and utilizing Cull with the poisons, I've not used snipe, used snipe, checked my rotation against every post I could find and still am only hitting 900--1200. And I am working my *** off to get the numbers as high as I can. When you have a Merc that can hit 1500 while falling asleep at the keyboard.

 

I am curious as to hear some others experience with the parse and see what kind of numbers we are suppose to put up. Maybe I am doing something completely wrong and don't realize it, or maybe the DPS is actually broken and needs to be reevaluated by the Devs...

[TheRagingPwner]

Not sure if you are figuring this into your DPS but most of the other classes have better armor penetration or ignore armor all together. In a raid situation with the buffs from all of the classes stacking, our DPS should increase more than other classes would. Not sure if it would increase 300+ though so that is something concerning.

[TaiRevant]

Are you talking sustained or burst dps? Also an excellent way to compare damage is to do a raid and look at total damage delt by each player to one boss, looking at "dps" numbers doesn't alway paint a clear picture.

You could have the lowest dps and still do more damage then the highest.

[mangarrage]

I'm honestly not surprised by this.

I do not know who started the rumor about highest dps class but my guess was probably BW in order to get the least played class more played.

 

The issue which I see, even tho we have above average burst is it takes too long to do everything.

The cover imo messes with our gcd as well. Just a theory seems like I try to fire of something and he goes and crotches again. idk why. Too much up/down

 

I think once alot of parses go live you will see either "cast" times reduction or increase i damage

 

What they really need to do is make all our damage the same as everyone elses

[Belgaram]

Not sure if you are figuring this into your DPS but most of the other classes have better armor penetration or ignore armor all together. In a raid situation with the buffs from all of the classes stacking, our DPS should increase more than other classes would. Not sure if it would increase 300+ though so that is something concerning.

 

I am Lethality/Engineering Hybrid, so my damage is internal from poison stacks and cull. But still...

 

 

Are you talking sustained or burst dps? Also an excellent way to compare damage is to do a raid and look at total damage delt by each player to one boss, looking at "dps" numbers doesn't alway paint a clear picture.

You could have the lowest dps and still do more damage then the highest.

 

The numbers were based on full raid buffs, and a 3-5 minute parse. (Guild formed a raid grouped, buffed up and hit the dummy). The parses were then done with ACT and a guild members web based parser. The dps is based off of the amount of damage done divided by the time. So after 3-5 minutes, everyone would stop. We would then open up the logged file in ACT and the web based parser and compare. We did this several times and it always came up with the same results. Sniper DPS/Damage was considerably lower than the other classes. Marauders and Mercs consistently did upwards of 16-1700. The Snipers ranged from 900-1200. There were a few that we (snipers) hit that were higher... I hit 1479 at one point, but it was 1 time out of MANY and by the end of the night, I was getting worse....

 

I am going to change around some mods a little more on test. I am still over stacked with Crit and Accuracy. My Accuracy is 112% and Crit is 40% Cunning is 1800. Going to switch out to columi mods (surge/power) and re run the tests tonight.

[TheRagingPwner]

The numbers were based on full raid buffs, and a 3-5 minute parse. (Guild formed a raid grouped, buffed up and hit the dummy). The parses were then done with ACT and a guild members web based parser. The dps is based off of the amount of damage done divided by the time. So after 3-5 minutes, everyone would stop. We would then open up the logged file in ACT and the web based parser and compare. We did this several times and it always came up with the same results. Sniper DPS/Damage was considerably lower than the other classes. Marauders and Mercs consistently did upwards of 16-1700. The Snipers ranged from 900-1200. There were a few that we (snipers) hit that were higher... I hit 1479 at one point, but it was 1 time out of MANY and by the end of the night, I was getting worse....

 

I am going to change around some mods a little more on test. I am still over stacked with Crit and Accuracy. My Accuracy is 112% and Crit is 40% Cunning is 1800. Going to switch out to columi mods (surge/power) and re run the tests tonight.

 

My gut feeling is that you have to be doing something wrong. This is too big of a difference to go unnoticed by BW. They have said many times that all classes are +/- 5% and that snipers were the top single target DPS class. You are talking about doing 30% less dmg than other classes. There is no way that if this was the case, would be allowed. BW has been running logs on raids and WZs since release to judge the DPS and they would not be releasing combat logs to the public if a discrepancy that was this large was in the game.

[Belgaram]

I would love to think that's the case, but we had 4 snipers all running the test 1 full MM, 1 Lethality/Engineer, and 2 Cull (Lethality/MM) and all 4 were putting up around the same numbers. The Lethality/MM seemed to get the higher averages but I got the highest over all number.

 

If it were just me, then I could say that is very likely the case. I do VERY well in PvP, I am always the top 3 damage, so I find it a hard pill to swallow that my DPS is that bad, but if 4 of us all running the same gear, different specs all put up around the same numbers, I can't help but think it may be the class. Another thing to consider too is how much that will drop off in an actual raid scenario when snipers are forced to be on the move. I can only imagine that it will drop drastically. Which is even scarrier for the raiding Sniper.

 

That said, I am hoping that others see this post and put up their honest numbers so that we can get some more insight.

[Ayestes]

Mathematically it seems way off. I suspect something is at work here that is going unnoticed and skewing the results rather then our DPS being that far off.

[TheRagingPwner]

It is possible that something is wrong with the parser. Try using a different parser and see if that gives different results. All of the parsers are in the test phase so there are still bugs to work out.

[Belgaram]

It is possible that something is wrong with the parser. Try using a different parser and see if that gives different results. All of the parsers are in the test phase so there are still bugs to work out.

 

Currently we are using 2 methods of parsing. 1 is the ACT version that figures everything out, calculates it and breaks everything down. The other is very generic. It calculates the numbers but you have to manually divide the damage done by the time. This eliminates the ACT flaw in that there is a 10-15 second delay from when you stop DPSing to the time the log stops. That 15 seconds will substanitally drop your numbers. So we take the time we ended, calculate the time we stopped dps'ing (around 10-15 seconds according to the log file) and then divide the time in seconds by the damage done. ie 125,000 damage in 3 minutes = 125,000 / 180 = 694.4 dps.

 

That said, the other classes are using the same methods at the same time, with the same buffs (didn't use blood lust tho because it's too inflamatory a stat buff) they are still consistently putting up much higher numbers. If it was JUST snipers doing the tests, then we could say it could be the parsers, but comparatively speaking, even if the parsers are ascue, it still gives us a comparison.

 

I wonder though if internal damage is calculated at the same rate.... I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Snipers are the only class that uses internal damage for alot of it's abilities. If internal damage is not being calculated at the same rate that the other damage (ranged, tech etc) that would put us much lower than actual.

[optimacy]

You probably should post this in the PTS forum.

 

Not only does this deal with 1.2, but your question may benefit from input from other classes using DPS testing methods on this patch.

[TheRagingPwner]

You probably should post this in the PTS forum.

 

Not only does this deal with 1.2, but your question may benefit from input from other classes using DPS testing methods on this patch.

 

Agreed. The developers are constantly responding to interesting posts on the PTS forum. Re post this there and link this thread so they can read our responses that we have thus far. If there is a problem, it really needs to be brought up.

[Technohic]

Do me a favor and link to the post on PTS forums here as well. I would like to follow this closely.

[Raethax]

I am going to change around some mods a little more on test. I am still over stacked with Crit and Accuracy. My Accuracy is 112% and Crit is 40% Cunning is 1800. Going to switch out to columi mods (surge/power) and re run the tests tonight.

 

I'd probably have to say this is probably a major issue to why your dps it so low. I understand you said you transferred before you min/maxed your gear. But having 12% hit and anything over 35-38% crit is pretty much a waste. From what I've noticed (and i know everyone says your need 10% hit on bosses) I've never missed once in a raid. I only run about 5% hit. So auto attack is at 95% and special attack is still at 105%. As for crit, your crit is always going to increase as you get cunning so having more then 250 rating (soft cap for demishing returns) begins to become a waste.

 

So personally what i like do is at 250 crit rating being fully raid buffed with a stim i sit at about 38% crit. Its a good solid amount of crit without having to suffer diminishing returns. I just start stacking surge/power. Power/surge is always going to be the best stat to stack once you've hit your diminishing returns cap on crit.

 

As for hit, i think its a waste to have more then 5% because i've never seen a miss/dodge/reflect in a raid yet. I just don't think hit has been properly put into the game like a lot of things.

 

If I'm wrong on anything please feel free to enlighten me.

[Belgaram]

Reposted with a link from PTS

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3627829#post3627829

[trevah]

I wonder though if internal damage is calculated at the same rate.... I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Snipers are the only class that uses internal damage for alot of it's abilities. If internal damage is not being calculated at the same rate that the other damage (ranged, tech etc) that would put us much lower than actual.

 

Mara's bleeds from anni tree are almost all internal damage, as they're similar tech DOT damage. And according to your parsers maras are huge damagers, so it can't be that.

[TheRagingPwner]

As for hit, i think its a waste to have more then 5% because i've never seen a miss/dodge/reflect in a raid yet. I just don't think hit has been properly put into the game like a lot of things.

 

If I'm wrong on anything please feel free to enlighten me.

 

SW is confirming that all bosses in raids have a passive 10% dodge so you MUST have 10% additional accuracy to never miss an attack. I agree that I have never noticed a miss and I only have 8% but they seem to have evidence that states this is the soft cap.

 

Even with 12% accuracy and 40% crit, you are not going to lose upwards of 30% DPS compared to other classes so optimizing your gear will not add that much. There is def something else going on.

[Marak]

Anyone talk to any gunslingers and see if they're having similar problems?

[nToxiK]

I heard a forum rumour that in 1.2, armour debuffs no longer stack and this impacts MM Snipers the most. Possible cause?

[shadowAI]

My gut feeling is that you have to be doing something wrong. This is too big of a difference to go unnoticed by BW. They have said many times that all classes are +/- 5% and that snipers were the top single target DPS class. .

 

Whats more likely. They have balanced classes to 5% dps difference taking into account the 400 dps increase from specific bugs that have existed for 3 months (heatseeker 10k instead of 4k). Or the alternative that those were just PR statements to prevent players from quitting and to get more players to reroll dps alts? Heatseeker bug is one of the easiest ones to test and sithwarrior only really noticed it 2 months after it was first discussed (too much theory based on if the game was actually bug free).

 

If anyone claims BW was wrong. They will just state "well in the version that we mentioned it, it was working like that and thats our goal, so stay with us".

Edited March 26, 2012 by shadowAI

[Kelderek]

I am going to change around some mods a little more on test. I am still over stacked with Crit and Accuracy. My Accuracy is 112% and Crit is 40% Cunning is 1800. Going to switch out to columi mods (surge/power) and re run the tests tonight.

 

I'd probably have to say this is probably a major issue to why your dps it so low. I understand you said you transferred before you min/maxed your gear. But having 12% hit and anything over 35-38% crit is pretty much a waste. From what I've noticed (and i know everyone says your need 10% hit on bosses) I've never missed once in a raid. I only run about 5% hit. So auto attack is at 95% and special attack is still at 105%. As for crit, your crit is always going to increase as you get cunning so having more then 250 rating (soft cap for demishing returns) begins to become a waste.

 

So personally what i like do is at 250 crit rating being fully raid buffed with a stim i sit at about 38% crit. Its a good solid amount of crit without having to suffer diminishing returns. I just start stacking surge/power. Power/surge is always going to be the best stat to stack once you've hit your diminishing returns cap on crit.

 

As for hit, i think its a waste to have more then 5% because i've never seen a miss/dodge/reflect in a raid yet. I just don't think hit has been properly put into the game like a lot of things.

 

If I'm wrong on anything please feel free to enlighten me.

 

You ALWAYS suffer diminishing returns on crit, there is no soft cap. Every point of crit rating is worse than the last starting at 1.

 

The value of each point of crit rating relative to your other stats like power will vary from player to player and will depend on ALL of your stats combined together. To arbitrarily say that 250 crit rating is the amount you want is rather foolish and will not be true for everyone.

 

There is usually a point at which the value of power will exceed the value of crit rating point for point, but again that will be different for each player depending on the rest of your stats. For me personally, power > crit once I had only 120 crit rating.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Kelderek

[RedOmen]

So sick hearing 'sustained' or 'burst' dps. There is no such thing as burst dps in an ops boss battle. Dps is dps.

[Tenacity]

So sick hearing 'sustained' or 'burst' dps. There is no such thing as burst dps in an ops boss battle. Dps is dps.

 

Not true. When fighting Soa in Eternity Vault - especially during phase three at the bottom of his chamber - you only have 14~ seconds to dish out as much damage as possible. The rest of the time, your damage output doesnt matter because he's immune to damage anyways, and you'll be focusing on mind traps.

 

Similarly, the Fabricator in Karagga's palace - snipers (and other ranged DPS) are often working the consoles, and only have 10-15 seconds to DPS the boss after each blast.

 

 

Sure, on a lot of fights burst damage doesnt matter as much as sustained damage, but there are several where it is an important factor.

[psi_overtake]

Not true. When fighting Soa in Eternity Vault - especially during phase three at the bottom of his chamber - you only have 14~ seconds to dish out as much damage as possible. The rest of the time, your damage output doesnt matter because he's immune to damage anyways, and you'll be focusing on mind traps.

 

Similarly, the Fabricator in Karagga's palace - snipers (and other ranged DPS) are often working the consoles, and only have 10-15 seconds to DPS the boss after each blast.

 

 

Sure, on a lot of fights burst damage doesnt matter as much as sustained damage, but there are several where it is an important factor.

 

Haha, you beat me to it! Very much agreed - sometimes you only have a window of opportunity for some things. Downing an add quickly, a temporary shield removed, and others all require (or do much better with) burst DPS.

[Shredzz]

Currently we are using 2 methods of parsing. 1 is the ACT version that figures everything out, calculates it and breaks everything down. The other is very generic. It calculates the numbers but you have to manually divide the damage done by the time. This eliminates the ACT flaw in that there is a 10-15 second delay from when you stop DPSing to the time the log stops. That 15 seconds will substanitally drop your numbers. So we take the time we ended, calculate the time we stopped dps'ing (around 10-15 seconds according to the log file) and then divide the time in seconds by the damage done. ie 125,000 damage in 3 minutes = 125,000 / 180 = 694.4 dps.

 

That said, the other classes are using the same methods at the same time, with the same buffs (didn't use blood lust tho because it's too inflamatory a stat buff) they are still consistently putting up much higher numbers. If it was JUST snipers doing the tests, then we could say it could be the parsers, but comparatively speaking, even if the parsers are ascue, it still gives us a comparison.

 

I wonder though if internal damage is calculated at the same rate.... I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Snipers are the only class that uses internal damage for alot of it's abilities. If internal damage is not being calculated at the same rate that the other damage (ranged, tech etc) that would put us much lower than actual.

 

You've got this wrong there are four types of attacks; melee/ranged/tech/force, only melee/ranged are mitigated from defense/shields and there are four types of damage; Kinetic/Energy/Internal/Elemental, only kinetic/energy have to deal with armor, internal/elemental goes through armor.

 

Snipers would do mainly ranged/tech attacks, A tech/force attack would appear as Yellow numbers, A melee/ranged attack would appear as white damage

Edited March 27, 2012 by Shredzz