All this 1.2 QQin about NERFs...Wat about Ops/Scoundrel?

[Ozzone]

You're either incredibly ignorant or play on an awful server with awful players.

 

Pay him no mind, he already killed his credibility with the lame "cowardice class" statement. Any further debate with him is pointless.

[wwkingms]

Pay him no mind, he already killed his credibility with the lame "cowardice class" statement. Any further debate with him is pointless.

 

but srsly its fact you can take someone well under 50% with cds in your stun lock

 

what do you want? to be able to global people at your whim?

 

grow a set and l2 not depend on burst and stun locking

 

 

bw is nerfing you because you do way too much dmg to people cant even fight back

[Adzzy]

dps? you probably wouldn't, but they're the only healer with any sort of sustainability come 1.2

[AdmiralOnasi]

but srsly its fact you can take someone well under 50% with cds in your stun lock

 

what do you want? to be able to global people at your whim?

 

grow a set and l2 not depend on burst and stun locking

 

 

bw is nerfing you because you do way too much dmg to people cant even fight back

 

This is hilarious.

[senojones]

If this game was about dueling then yes Operatives would be the king of all classes. Everything changes in team play, which is what really matters.

[Izola]

It's about time someone who plays as a 50 op made an informed and organized post on this subject. Just briefly I'm a fully geared valor 80+ conceal operative who runs the best PVP guild on my server, so I have a lot of experience playing this class.

 

For those of you who question what an operatives utility is in huttball:

 

1. Offhealing the tank. This is an incredibly underrated ability. Many times I finish a huttball round with 100k+ healing, much of it on the ballcarrier. Those rounds I don't top damage, but my team wins because of the extra healing. People are focusing the real healers, interrupting them, cc'ing them, and they leave me alone to heal. I can crit for up to 4500 heal if I pop my adrenal. Imagine your tank between the two fire pits at 3k health, and suddenly he gets popped to 7500 health while the 2nd fire pit drops and he pops his defensive CDs. GG.

 

I agree this is VERY underrated, but I'm a WOW baby and although our Feral druid would SOMETIMES heal the FC I don't think it's make or break to get you into a rated WZ. Not at top levels anyway.

 

2. Flashbang. Have you ever had a geared tank ballcarrying just being swarmed by the other team and he's carried them on his back for a while then suddenly THE ENTIRE OPPOSING TEAM GETS STUNNED? Welcome to flashbang. If your team is any good they will stop attacking and let the opponents just sit there for 8 seconds completely powerless while the tank runs away. Oh yea, and after I stun their entire team, I throw in a couple of offheals and he makes it for the score.

 

This is the ONLY UTILITY I actaully see for Scoundrels. And in ENDGAME rateds I feel this is ALL your class brings to the table.

 

 

3. Stealth control. If you actually do play high level huttball, you would understand that the key to winning is not always about damage/healing numbers. It is about ball control. Two geared and organized teams are going to score 80%+ times they get the ball, so the best way to win is to keep them from ever picking it up to begin with. Good teams both have people waiting in the middle for the ball after scores, fighting it out. Me? I can either wreck people with my burst, or if the opposing players in mid are pretty tough I can sit in stealth, time when the ball's going to come back, open HS on one person, debilitate another, and i've now stunned two people in complete surprise and I often times GRAB THE BALL. Save your defensive CD's for this moment, and evasion can basically make you invincible for 4s, long enough to get to the acid pit and pass to someone who's past the first fire or at the lamp post. Your team has scored before the opponent even knows what hit them. My teammates call me Tom Brady.

 

First off, I'm a G-men fan. So you scored ZERO points here. Eli > Tom...I agree that control is huge here but if there are more then 1 it's game over or you'll have to use your Flashbang and if you do then you are wasting the only utility you have. A shadow can control the middle MUCH easier then a Scoundrel with range stunLock, Knockback, Sprint, & pull. While I don't doubt your skill I still think 1 v 2 in the middle and you never stand a chance where a Shadow can control the entire board for much longer.

 

4. Soloing healers. Find me a class that can solo a healer besides operative dps. I can open, attack, debilitate, attack attack, root, even if they stun/root me, by the time i get to their slowed tendon severed runaway i can vanish and re-open. Yes, this requires using the 2m vanish cooldown, but this is one situation where I find vanishing to re-open worthwhile. I also have an interrupt. You get that #1 opposing healer down and suddenly the opponents are dropping like flies.

 

There isn't one. That said u get knocked off it's over. You are out of the fight until you walk around. Every other DPS class has either the ability to knock off first or get back into the fight without huge delay. In the middle your ability to control heals would be AWSOME but I highly doubt any healer worth his salt is going to be anywhere but on a bridge so I forfiet this (If only in huttball)

 

5. Stealthing in the endzone. If my team has decent ball control in the middle but is having trouble scoring due to huge DPS from the other team, making it 70-80% of the way to the line then dying, I can sit in the endzone UNDETECTED, tell my ballcarrier in voice chat where I am, they can throw it from HALFWAY ACROSS THE PIT to my stealthed position and I unstealth at the last second to catch the ball and score. The opponent is swarmed on the tank ballcarrier and as his health hits 20% and they think they've got us, the ball's suddenly in my hands in the endzone.

 

Now we come to the REAL problem, Why would I ever put a Scoundrel anywhere but the middle. By your own admission the middle is the ONLY real place for a Scoundrel now I find you wanting to help the team leaving the middle and standing on thier goal line. You just took away the only strength you had. I know why scoundrels do this, They wonna help the team, but the fact that you even bring this up is proof that you need more utility.

 

This is on top of the fact that we have very good 1v1 damage and stealth allows us to choose our targets. I often times top damage in warzones. I have done over 600k damage before. We have our weaknesses... we can't sprint, we can't pull, we can't knockback. These things frustrate me too, but we can't haev everything. Can you imagine if your opponent could stealth, sprint/gap close, heal, stun the whole team, and knock people back? It would be ridiculous. I honestly haven't seen anyone actually use this class/spec to its full utility. People are too simple-minded about what constitutes "utility".

 

I don't doubt your skill BUT other classes have an AOE snare/cc along with LEAP & the ability to carry the ball.. YOUR FLASHBANG gone you have NO such abilities. When you look at what the other classes bring to the table for utility, Scoundrels just don't measure up.

 

Sprint, Friendly pull, Enemy Pull, Aoe stun, Aoe Slow, Knockback, 30m Stunlock, 30m CC, 15m int, friendly leap, enemy leap, The ability to carry the ball more then 10 yards, 30m snares, Aoe snare, 30m slows...

 

And from this list Scoundrels have AOE stun that breaks on dam and burst...like I said, it might just be me, But something seems to be missing.

 

 

 

Shadow Step Fixes all....GIVE IT TO THEM.

[Mrunlimited]

There is no answer, but the nerfs don't change anything.

 

Operative/scoundrel has always been a useless class in high skill group PVP.

 

On the plus side, the healer buffs mean that op healers are still the worst choice but not so bad that you'd necesarily rule them out of a premade any more. You'd always take a sorc or commando first, but if you've goth those already or can't find one you might be willing to take a healing-specced op now.

 

lol this made me laugh.. and is totally false

[teemoor]

but srsly its fact you can take someone well under 50% with cds in your stun lock

 

what do you want? to be able to global people at your whim?

 

grow a set and l2 not depend on burst and stun locking

 

 

bw is nerfing you because you do way too much dmg to people cant even fight back

 

Says a jugg. Right. Cuz 7k aoe smash is ok, but 4k hidden strike is OP.

 

Take away my stealth and give me all jugg's defensive cds. I wouldn't mind lol.

[hulkweazel]

bw is nerfing you because you do way too much dmg to noobs who don't know how to play the game

fixed for you

[Ryotknife]

False. Only possible with the triple hit Hidden Strike bug and consumables popped. Even then, it has to be on a low armor class with no defensive cooldowns up.

 

eh

 

ops regularly stunlock my champ pt to death without me being able to fight back, if im lucky ill get a single dot off on them as a final FU if my CC breaker is down.

 

although keep in mind while im against just handing ops a gap closer in this current state and the fact that i hate facing an op more so than any other class (even well geared assassins or maras), it does not mean i support the current nerfs.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ryotknife

[fungihoujo]

Multiple stuns, aoe instant ranged mez, stealth, stealth escape. No utility, really? Their main issue is they have trouble closing the distance once they're visible, and do their best damage out of stealth. That said- I've seen good operatives, and they can and do lock down squishy classes like sages- they have high burst for taking out top priority targets- and they had midcard sustained damage.

 

They absolutely aren't one of the better classes- they're nowhere near marauders for sure, and even behind mercs, powertechs, sins and perhaps even juggernauts.... at least they're better than snipers, who have about as much utility minus the healing and mobility and stealth and escape.

[Vaipyr]

Saying the lack of utility makes Ops undesirable is totally false. Ops burst damage alone is enough to be a key part of any group.

 

HAHHAA

 

oh man, thanks for that. Needed a good gut-wrenching laugh today. There is no sane reason whatsoever, regardless of the skill of the player, to bring an op/scoundrel to any REAL competitive PvP group. None. Zilch. Zero. The "burst" dps is a joke considering it's MAYBE a % or two higher than anyone else. Maybe, and I doubt that. We'll see come the combat logs.

 

Ops bring nothing to the table. No z-axis modifiers, no gap closing, no position altering skills. Utility is far more useful than the ability to loldpsalittlebit on a bad player. Yes, a BAD player. Ops are good agaisnt solo idiots away from the group and low health. In any organized team who is going to do that? Noone.

 

It's really quite insulting and annoying to even see people on a pug team anymore playing an Op as they are gimping their team with their presence. Go reroll something useful already.

[Coldin]

Sigh. Too bad half the time in these threads legitimate concerns of the viability of a class have to filled with trolls.

 

I just hope Bioware is listening. Give us a leap, a sprint, a knockback. Some useful defensive ability outside of Disappearing Act. Then I'd take all the damage nerfs in the world.

[Ryotknife]

HAHHAA

 

oh man, thanks for that. Needed a good gut-wrenching laugh today. There is no sane reason whatsoever, regardless of the skill of the player, to bring an op/scoundrel to any REAL competitive PvP group. None. Zilch. Zero. The "burst" dps is a joke considering it's MAYBE a % or two higher than anyone else. Maybe, and I doubt that. We'll see come the combat logs.

 

Ops bring nothing to the table. No z-axis modifiers, no gap closing, no position altering skills. Utility is far more useful than the ability to loldpsalittlebit on a bad player. Yes, a BAD player. Ops are good agaisnt solo idiots away from the group and low health. In any organized team who is going to do that? Noone.

 

It's really quite insulting and annoying to even see people on a pug team anymore playing an Op as they are gimping their team with their presence. Go reroll something useful already.

 

z-axis modifers, gap closers, positon altering skills are only relevant to huttball, those same abilities are nigh useless in alderaan or voidstar except in creative situations like using a gap closer on an enemy 30 m away to get away from a melee focus train. about the only ability from that list that has any real relevance in ald or voidstar would be force push.

[hulkweazel]

Multiple stuns, aoe instant ranged mez, stealth, stealth escape. No utility, really? Their main issue is they have trouble closing the distance once they're visible, and do their best damage out of stealth. That said- I've seen good operatives, and they can and do lock down squishy classes like sages- they have high burst for taking out top priority targets- and they had midcard sustained damage.

 

They absolutely aren't one of the better classes- they're nowhere near marauders for sure, and even behind mercs, powertechs, sins and perhaps even juggernauts.... at least they're better than snipers, who have about as much utility minus the healing and mobility and stealth and escape.

LOL at this. We provide better utility than Snipers... and that's supposed to make us happy? I like the part where you even admit Ops are behind every single other class. So much for balance.

 

Also LOL at the list of utility you provided, which basically boils down to "Ops get stuns and stealth". (You just listed different abilities in that category).

 

I think you know how limited Ops are, you just don't want to admit it.

[ForsakenKing]

i bet the op has never played with a good scoundrel (either heals or dps). guess what, i have will defiantly have that person in my 8man.

[GrandMike]

i bet the op has never played with a good scoundrel (either heals or dps). guess what, i have will defiantly have that person in my 8man.

 

I bet you have never played scoundrel/ops on BM level.

[DrWeebs]

I don't doubt your skill BUT other classes have an AOE snare/cc along with LEAP & the ability to carry the ball.. YOUR FLASHBANG gone you have NO such abilities. When you look at what the other classes bring to the table for utility, Scoundrels just don't measure up.

 

Sprint, Friendly pull, Enemy Pull, Aoe stun, Aoe Slow, Knockback, 30m Stunlock, 30m CC, 15m int, friendly leap, enemy leap, The ability to carry the ball more then 10 yards, 30m snares, Aoe snare, 30m slows...

 

And from this list Scoundrels have AOE stun that breaks on dam and burst...like I said, it might just be me, But something seems to be missing.

 

 

 

Shadow Step Fixes all....GIVE IT TO THEM.

 

Interesting points. I will think about these while I am playing... perhaps I play on a server with low-skilled players.

[JediDuckling]

Op/Scoundrel = loads of Utility...thye are still good?

 

and when I say loads I mean loads!

 

Shadow = KNOCKBACK, SPRINT, PULL, 30M STUNLOCK, 15M INT, 1.5 MIN TRINKET, and much much more

 

What utlity does a Scoundrel/op have? loads

 

What Gap closer (Besides steath) Do they have? they are 70% melee 30% range you dont see assasin/shadows complain about gap closers do you.

 

Good luck getting into an 8 man, you won't be in mine! <--- selfish very selfish

 

Give them some love BW....A shadow step or SOMETHING! <--- lets make them super OP again

 

there pretty much fixed

Edited March 26, 2012 by JediDuckling

[Lord_DeathSaber]

roll a sorc, have the lowest hpa nd dmg mitigation and then tell me bubbles a defensive cd and not a FKING NECESSITY

 

Hey bro, im a lvl 50 sorc. i have all but 3 BM pieces and my Mainhand. Now this 1.2 patch is not a nerf for us man. I agree that we are squishy and we are targeted alot, but if you can't kill a smuggler/op then your not using your rotation right. Now if your getting hit by a smuggler/op + another yea we're screwed. But im full madness spec. I still do 300+ in any WZ and im guarunteed 9+ medals a WZ. People over look us man. Plus if you go full madness you have a 2 second root every 9 seconds WHAT!!! do you know how powerful that is? Combine that with a bubble and you get 2 free shots at killing someone!!! Assassin, operative, scoundrel, SW (both jugg and MAra) we destroy, BH and Gunslinger, sniper a little harder but can still be handled. Man sorc. are incredible at PvP, our CC's and our DoTs are incredible. ALSO for those of you who think "oh ill just purge all the DoTs you throw on people" HAHAHAHA good luck, we have such stuns and CC abilities that no if i stun you throw, 2 afflictions on people, WhirlWind you after CC and start attacking you my DoTs are still up and now your healing yourself >.> awsome Now operative DPS is getting nerfed BUT Have you EVER seen an operative/scoundrel healer? If you would rather have a sorc. healer in a RATED WZ then be my guest, im going to have my awsome friend who can run and heal the ball carrier and allow us to win, or in voidstar help run heal, stun, heal, stun, heal, or how about civil war? yeah heals are great.

[GrandMike]

Hey bro, im a lvl 50 sorc. i have all but 3 BM pieces and my Mainhand. Now this 1.2 patch is not a nerf for us man.

 

Yes it is.

 

But somehow i think it doesnt really matter to you, buff/nerf you always do poorly rofl

[Vaipyr]

there pretty much fixed

 

Considering your "fixes" your premade is going to suck bad if you're in charge of assembling it. Any min/max'er serious about his premade will tell his ops/scoundrels to reroll a good class or ****. Of course there will be plenty of "meh, it's for fun" groups that will have them and that's great. Really. But not in any group going to high-end competition.

 

Also it's not selfish. What's selfish is gimping your team with a **** class because you refuse to reroll something worthwhile.

[Digtahk]

There is no more definative sign that you are going to lose a random warzone than having more than 1 dps operative in your group. This myth of the well played operative is almost as big a fallacy as the wall of marauders stomping everyone 6-0 in hutball and confining entire teams of sorcerers to their spawn area.....

 

Everything an operative does to enjoy a warzone is counterproductive to winning it. Typically they stealth around on the fringes bursting down people who get knocked off the railings on low health (Its almost always advantages to leave people trying to get away on low health alone inevitably they will try and hide in a corner waiting to get out of combat so they can heal and the game will pass them by, operatives send them to the spawn room where they come back and kill your ball carrier just before the line).

 

I don't blame them for this they don't have the defensive cds to try and burst down a full health ball carrier and furthermore much like the tracer missile their shotgun blasts are like a red flag to a bull for every surrounding dps who immediately turns on them so attacking the ball carrier in the midst of a zerg is out of the question.

 

I would most certainly never include a dps operative in any premade team I put together.

[Deesasther]

Myth of well played operative ?

 

There are couple that come out of stealth and knock me down, i can stay there and be quite much dead, or i can use my trinket and be stunned right away and get dead.

 

Having 50% BM and 50% champ gear still doesn't leave me much options.

 

Maybe it's just my class, gunslinger, but honestly i think operatives and scoundrels need some kind of nerf. In my perspective there is nothing i can do to counter a good one, can't even get ready for that when they come in stealth.

[HyperThomas]

1) Better armor than a shadow specced as infiltration.

2) Ability to stunlock a target down for a massive duration.

3) Burst = better than a shadow.

4) Trinket CD is the same.

5) The burst is high enough to dominate any target you want in group combat.