All this 1.2 QQin about NERFs...Wat about Ops/Scoundrel?

[Celebrus]

well, then i guess we have a difference in opinion of what the top players meant. also, youtube videos....really dont show anything because the video can be editied or more specifically cherry picked unless it shows some sort of exploit. he may have a WZ where he wrecked face, and another 10 WZs where he got wrecked.

 

but okay, you are talking about people, in my example, who would be in the gladiator range. now, i do believe pvp should be balanced around that (whatever it turns out to be in swtor) because it is a reasonable goal for the average person to achieve and it is high enough that most people would be happy with that.

 

The only difference between the people I'm talking about and the people you're talking about are sponorships and endorsements.

 

I've been in that tier in early CoD, there isn't a lot of difference between the people making money at the top and the people just *playing* at the top, but I'm sure razer would sell less mice if Swifty said that.

 

I agree that to a certain extent youtube videos aren't a good resource, but when I'm being directed to youtube so often by ops/scoundrels that are trying to prove to me that their class is horrible, only to see videos of happy ops/scoundrels owning people, I can't help but question things. I guess it goes to show that just like everything else around here, the people that are actually *in* the game are enjoying it a lot more than the forum dwellers.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Celebrus

[Solbjorn]

I bet you have never played scoundrel/ops on BM level.

 

Dude Scoundrels imo are by far the most annoying class in the game. The BM Scoundrels ive played against are very good at kiting and getting behind you. Once they trip you down your life just disappears even as a tank, I've seen a handful of scoundrels from Vendetta on the Ajunta Pall server each individually down every class in a single combo or at least cripple them so bad that the other player never had a chance. Good players will be good players regardless of class just talk more with competitive scoundrels/operatives on your server.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Solbjorn

[Howbadisbad]

Dude Scoundrels imo are by far the most annoying class in the game. The BM Scoundrels ive played against a very good at kiting and getting behind you. Once they trip you down your life just disappears even as a tank, I've seen a handful of scoundrels from Vendetta on the Ajunta Pall server each individually down every class in a single combo or at least cripple them so bad that the other player never had a chance. Good players will be good players regardless of class just talk more with competitive scoundrels/operatives on your server.

 

Operatives GET kited, and are the easiest class to kite.

 

These tanks should invest in better gear and stop wearing greens.

 

These classes getting downed in one combo should stop wearing greens.

 

Performing well =/= Class balance

Advantages compared to other classes = Class balance

[hulkweazel]

The one thing I can't understand about these threads is how some scoundrels can have such a completely different play experience than others.

 

On my server, there are still scoundrels that get marked with the healers as priority kills. The reason why is because if we don't, they will kill everyone. Watching them kill is like watching someone hammer nails in a board - people just drop one after the other before them and these people are all in battlemaster gear.

 

Then I come to these forums and people are talking about how scoundrels aren't even viable in the game anymore. So what is the truth?

If people are dropping "one after another" then they are spending too much time 1v1ing and not enough time doing WZ objectives. That's just the bottom line.

 

Operatives roll over bads.

Edited March 27, 2012 by hulkweazel

[Ryotknife]

The only difference between the people I'm talking about and the people you're talking about are sponorships and endorsements.

 

I've been in that tier in early CoD, there isn't a lot of difference between the people making money at the top and the people just *playing* at the top, but I'm sure razer would sell less mice if Swifty said that.

 

okay, ive had a different experience from you. once again, im going to use an example from wow.

 

years ago, i played as a horde feral druid. it was not a competitive spec, in fact the number of feral gladiators in the entire world was in the single digits (in game with...i think at the time 10 million players). anyways, this spec could however wreck warriors 1v1, one of the best competitive classes.

 

found an alliance warrior who wanted to duel. I figure it would be an easy win. even against gladiator ranked warriors, i would have to try harder its true, but ill still carry the day.

 

i got wrecked....horribly and i was one of the best ferals on the medium pop server (the feral fraternity back in those days was very small however). even using every single trick in the book, even a few underhanded ones, i still lost.

 

He actually knew how to fight my class and knew everything about it. that may not sound shocking to you, but people (who were not ferals) that knew how to fight a feral druid were extremely rare, even at the very top. the reason was because a good feral was extremely rare (like an albino croc rare), and even then you didnt really have to know how to specifically fight one in arena since you can use common arena tactics with a fair degree of success. years later when feral was buffed, people STILL didnt know how to fight one, hell they didnt even know common counters against it.

 

this same warrior would sell his services and partner with any class in order to get that person to gladiator rating (and he charged a lot of money). he actually had some streams where it showed him partnering with literally the worst of the classes and basically soloing the enemy team (2v2 arena). his partner, while he was playing a terrible class, was also just terrible at his class and was one of the worst players ive ever seen. they still easily made it to gladiator.

 

granted, ive only met/fought 3 people in my 5 years in wow that would fit my description of top tier player, but they play at an entirely different level that im possibly capable of.

 

maybe its different in FPS. although quite honestly CoD hasnt felt competitive since MW1. too much cheesing for my taste, too many campers/nade spammers.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Ryotknife

[CanisAquilus]

No.

 

You might be talking about that.

 

I'm talking about the guy that PvPs in his off-time when he's not raiding, but he actually knows how to play his class, and dominates because of it.

 

There are plenty of videos on youtube of operatives/scoundrels beasting their way to the top damage with 0 deaths. I see BM operatives and scoundrels on my server regularly making top/near top damage with next to no deaths and plenty of contribution to objectives.

 

It simply doesn't take a player on "that next level" that you insist on describing to make this class successful. Sorry.

 

You've just described me.

 

But the thing is Celebrus, I'd be doing this with any class I play, because thats just what I do.

 

I do however know that I could do it much, much better as an assassin. There are serious class imbalances now, and come 1.2 the differences in power between the two classes will be even more pronounced.

 

Operatives are not horrible. Definitely not.

 

They're simply leaning towards underpowered when compared with assassins/shadows NOW, rendering the coming 1.2 nerfs totally unneccesary and offensive to most of the community, myself included.

Edited March 27, 2012 by CanisAquilus

[Celebrus]

You've just described me.

 

But the thing is Celebrus, I'd be doing this with any class I play, because thats just what I do.

 

I do however know that I could do it much, much better as an assassin. There are serious class imbalances now, and come 1.2 the differences in power between the two classes will be even more pronounced.

 

Operatives are not horrible. Definitely not.

 

They're simply leaning towards underpowered when compared with assassins/shadows NOW, rendering the coming 1.2 nerfs totally unneccesary and offensive to most of the community, myself included.

 

 

Isn't it great that preference, personal enjoyment, and friends still have more of an impact on where you go in this game than which class is FOTM?

 

I played a rogue for months in competitive play during cata knowing full well that I would get where I wanted to be faster playing a frost mage, but I enjoyed it more, so thats what I did. In LK I played a rogue knowing that I would do better playing a ret pally. In BC I played a rogue knowing full well that I would do better playing a BM hunter. I liked it more, despite any perceived problems it had. No matter what game you're playing, at what time, or what class you're playing within that game, the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side.

 

The imbalances you speak of exist in every game, they are a constant struggle that MMO developers deal with, but at the end of the day, there will still be operatives in competitive play, because operatives simply aren't as broken as people HERE are describing them, because it's viable, because people who would play "any class at a high level" choose to play the operative/scoundrel and enjoy it.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Celebrus

[CanisAquilus]

Its viable certainly. But I can understand their frustration.

 

Like I said, the shadow has a lot of advantages over the operatives now, and given we're getting some very heavy handed nerfs in 1.2 and the shadows/assassins are getting zero nerfs, what was previously an issue of minor annoyance to me has actually become seriously irritating.

Edited March 27, 2012 by CanisAquilus

[Howbadisbad]

Isn't it great that preference, personal enjoyment, and friends still have more of an impact on where you go in this game than which class is FOTM?

 

I played a rogue for months in competitive play during cata knowing full well that I would get where I wanted to be faster playing a frost mage, but I enjoyed it more, so thats what I did. In LK I played a rogue knowing that I would do better playing a ret pally. In BC I played a rogue knowing full well that I would do better playing a BM hunter. I liked it more, despite any perceived problems it had. No matter what game you're playing, at what time, or what class you're playing within that game, the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side.

 

The imbalances you speak of exist in every game, they are a constant struggle that MMO developers deal with, but at the end of the day, there will still be operatives in competitive play, because operatives simply aren't as broken as people HERE are describing them, because it's viable, because people who would play "any class at a high level" choose to play the operative/scoundrel and enjoy it.

 

Rogue could bring things to the table that other classes couldn't at all of these points, if we are speaking pvp. In BC Mutt Rogues were pretty OP in terms of stunlock and wtfpwn with dem glaives. In WotLK I don't really know much, took a break to play mostly fps, But I don't think Hunters have ever been more useful than a Rogue pvpwise, In Cata, Rogues are completely fine, they are quite possibly the strongest melee DPS for arena.

 

 

When a class has no point of being used over another class in both PvP and PvE, it is a problem, and it should be adressed.

[Ryotknife]

Isn't it great that preference, personal enjoyment, and friends still have more of an impact on where you go in this game than which class is FOTM?

 

I played a rogue for months in competitive play during cata knowing full well that I would get where I wanted to be faster playing a frost mage, but I enjoyed it more, so thats what I did. In LK I played a rogue knowing that I would do better playing a ret pally. In BC I played a rogue knowing full well that I would do better playing a BM hunter. I liked it more, despite any perceived problems it had. No matter what game you're playing, at what time, or what class you're playing within that game, the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side.

 

The imbalances you speak of exist in every game, they are a constant struggle that MMO developers deal with, but at the end of the day, there will still be operatives in competitive play, because operatives simply aren't as broken as people HERE are describing them, because it's viable, because people who would play "any class at a high level" choose to play the operative/scoundrel and enjoy it.

 

.......what?

 

i wasnt around for cata, but rogues were great in wotlk. ret pallies? really? they were great for ONE maybe two seasons and downright terrible for the last two seasons. lets not forget that mutilate rogues were blatantly overpowered in wotlk for their ability to stunlock people to death.

 

and BM hunter in burning crusade? hunters were the bottom tier class in EVERY bracket of arenas for ALL seasons in that expansion. and sure, druid/hunter was by far the most annoying combo to face, but for every 1 druid/hunter, there were 5 druid/warrior, druid/rogue, or druid/lock.

 

and yes, a rogue was my first main (my feral druid was second). ill admit that i had a load of fun with him in vanilla and even BC wow, but the rogue class in general got really stale as they were the only class that did not change at all. especially in pve where they played exactly the same as they did 4 years ago.

 

the only season in which rogues were weak was season 5.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Ryotknife

[CanisAquilus]

Celebrus does have a point that people are overstating the case a bit about how operatives are terrible/useless.

 

But thats to be expected because people are angry, and rightfully so.

Edited March 27, 2012 by CanisAquilus

[Howbadisbad]

Celebrus does have a point that people are overstating the case a bit about how operatives are terrible/useless.

 

But thats to be expected because people are angry, and rightfully so.

 

His point is pretty moot, because classes in WoW have rarely been underpowered to the point where there is litterally no reason to bring classes into both PvE and PvP due to them being outshined in every way. If a class is bad in PvP, it generally shines in PvE and vice versa (Hunters, Rogues).

 

The only classes in WoW that have been as broken as Operatives are now could have been Pallys at the start, but that is all I can think of.

[Ryotknife]

His point is pretty moot, because classes in WoW have rarely been underpowered to the point where there is litterally no reason to bring classes into both PvE and PvP due to them being outshined in every way. If a class is bad in PvP, it generally shines in PvE and vice versa (Hunters, Rogues).

 

The only classes in WoW that have been as broken as Operatives are now could have been Pallys at the start, but that is all I can think of.

 

except...there is a reason to bring an op to civil war or void star, a really big one.

 

if we are going to do a comparison to wow, it would be like if a class was weak in 2v2 and pve, but strong in 3v3 and 5v5. even that would be inaccurate as all WZs are of equal importance at this stage.

 

also paladins were the bomb in pve in vanilla wow. they were the main reason why alliance smoked the horde in pve progression since paladins made everything easy mode. hell, they had the best buffs in the game that were literally game changers.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Ryotknife

[silvershadez]

I played a rogue for months in competitive play during cata knowing full well that I would get where I wanted to be faster playing a frost mage, but I enjoyed it more, so thats what I did. In LK I played a rogue knowing that I would do better playing a ret pally. In BC I played a rogue knowing full well that I would do better playing a BM hunter. I liked it more, despite any perceived problems it had. No matter what game you're playing, at what time, or what class you're playing within that game, the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side.

 

Bad WoW comparism. Rogues allways where one of those upper classes. And loled about the BM hunter in BC part.

 

Back to topic. It's kind of natural for the operatives not taking all those nerfs over and over again without any word or complaint. Just look at thes forums, theres at least one whine thread regarding the 1.2 changes for almost any class. We are one of the worst, if not the worst class if it comes to PvE DPS, and i guess the gap will just be bigger then now when 1.2 goes live (but i guess this is the wrong forum for this to discuss).

 

In my oppinion it's the smuggler / IA energy system which screws us this way. Not only do the Scoundrel/Operative, but also the gunslinger/sniper get worthless once they burned away their energy. Now you may argue Troopers/BH have the same issues. But they have significantly lesser skill costs then we do.

Take my DF gunslinger as an example: My DoT's cost 20 energy and if i want my combo to work i have to have both bleeds up before firing off wounding shots (30 energy). Thats a total of 70 energy. I have to maintain 60 energy to have the highest energy regeneration which is impossible with those costs. A shadow for example doesn't has that issue. Similar problems occur for Scoundrels/Operatives. It's all fine when we can kill targets within our first blows. But we aren't made for longer fights.

 

I vote for a revamped energy system.

[Ryotknife]

Bad WoW comparism. Rogues allways where one of those upper classes. And loled about the BM hunter in BC part.

 

Back to topic. It's kind of natural for the operatives not taking all those nerfs over and over again without any word or complaint. Just look at thes forums, theres at least one whine thread regarding the 1.2 changes for almost any class. We are one of the worst, if not the worst class if it comes to PvE DPS, and i guess the gap will just be bigger then now when 1.2 goes live (but i guess this is the wrong forum for this to discuss).

 

In my oppinion it's the smuggler / IA energy system which screws us this way. Not only do the Scoundrel/Operative, but also the gunslinger/sniper get worthless once they burned away their energy. Now you may argue Troopers/BH have the same issues. But they have significantly lesser skill costs then we do.

Take my DF gunslinger as an example: My DoT's cost 20 energy and if i want my combo to work i have to have both bleeds up before firing off wounding shots (30 energy). Thats a total of 70 energy. I have to maintain 60 energy to have the highest energy regeneration which is impossible with those costs. A shadow for example doesn't has that issue. Similar problems occur for Scoundrels/Operatives. It's all fine when we can kill targets within our first blows. But we aren't made for longer fights.

 

I vote for a revamped energy system.

 

im honestly curious. without target dummies, combat logs, or dps meters, how do you know that ops are performing poorly in pve?

[silvershadez]

im honestly curious. without target dummies, combat logs, or dps meters, how do you know that ops are performing poorly in pve?

 

Browse the PTS forums. They added some recording tools on the PTS and some Test dummies.

 

Theres a Scoundrel thread about the PTS on the scoundrel forum showing some numbers with both Scrapper and DF. I guess you will find it.

 

PS: In case you didnt find it

 

-Scoundrel (around page 7): http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=369298&page=7

 

-Sniper: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=380085

Edited March 27, 2012 by silvershadez

[Trauglodyte]

No.

 

You might be talking about that.

 

I'm talking about the guy that PvPs in his off-time when he's not raiding, but he actually knows how to play his class, and dominates because of it.

 

There are plenty of videos on youtube of operatives/scoundrels beasting their way to the top damage with 0 deaths. I see BM operatives and scoundrels on my server regularly making top/near top damage with next to no deaths and plenty of contribution to objectives.

 

It simply doesn't take a player on "that next level" that you insist on describing to make this class successful. Sorry.

 

Refer to the people that portrayed Powerr as an example of "what the average sin/shadow is capable of" if you want ridiculous comparisons.

 

But are they actually doing anything meaningful aside from picking off the dead weight in the back of the pack? And that is an honest question as most vids are e-peen waving "look at me" diatribes.

[Remdo]

I don't think you understand how the new legacy buffs work.. If you get a smuggler/agent past chapter two in their story, the one buff that you get will also apply the smuggler buff, forever.. So if you level one of each class past their chapter 2 story, then your buff will have all the buffs from the different classes..

 

This + more nerfs to concealment/scrapper and slight buffs to medicine/sawbones.

 

BW is slowly phasing conc/scraps out. Evul masterplan

[Fylkras]

It's about time someone who plays as a 50 op made an informed and organized post on this subject. Just briefly I'm a fully geared valor 80+ conceal operative who runs the best PVP guild on my server, so I have a lot of experience playing this class.

 

For those of you who question what an operatives utility is in huttball:

 

1. Offhealing the tank. This is an incredibly underrated ability. Many times I finish a huttball round with 100k+ healing, much of it on the ballcarrier. Those rounds I don't top damage, but my team wins because of the extra healing. People are focusing the real healers, interrupting them, cc'ing them, and they leave me alone to heal. I can crit for up to 4500 heal if I pop my adrenal. Imagine your tank between the two fire pits at 3k health, and suddenly he gets popped to 7500 health while the 2nd fire pit drops and he pops his defensive CDs. GG.

 

2. Flashbang. Have you ever had a geared tank ballcarrying just being swarmed by the other team and he's carried them on his back for a while then suddenly THE ENTIRE OPPOSING TEAM GETS STUNNED? Welcome to flashbang. If your team is any good they will stop attacking and let the opponents just sit there for 8 seconds completely powerless while the tank runs away. Oh yea, and after I stun their entire team, I throw in a couple of offheals and he makes it for the score.

 

3. Stealth control. If you actually do play high level huttball, you would understand that the key to winning is not always about damage/healing numbers. It is about ball control. Two geared and organized teams are going to score 80%+ times they get the ball, so the best way to win is to keep them from ever picking it up to begin with. Good teams both have people waiting in the middle for the ball after scores, fighting it out. Me? I can either wreck people with my burst, or if the opposing players in mid are pretty tough I can sit in stealth, time when the ball's going to come back, open HS on one person, debilitate another, and i've now stunned two people in complete surprise and I often times GRAB THE BALL. Save your defensive CD's for this moment, and evasion can basically make you invincible for 4s, long enough to get to the acid pit and pass to someone who's past the first fire or at the lamp post. Your team has scored before the opponent even knows what hit them. My teammates call me Tom Brady.

 

4. Soloing healers. Find me a class that can solo a healer besides operative dps. I can open, attack, debilitate, attack attack, root, even if they stun/root me, by the time i get to their slowed tendon severed runaway i can vanish and re-open. Yes, this requires using the 2m vanish cooldown, but this is one situation where I find vanishing to re-open worthwhile. I also have an interrupt. You get that #1 opposing healer down and suddenly the opponents are dropping like flies.

 

5. Stealthing in the endzone. If my team has decent ball control in the middle but is having trouble scoring due to huge DPS from the other team, making it 70-80% of the way to the line then dying, I can sit in the endzone UNDETECTED, tell my ballcarrier in voice chat where I am, they can throw it from HALFWAY ACROSS THE PIT to my stealthed position and I unstealth at the last second to catch the ball and score. The opponent is swarmed on the tank ballcarrier and as his health hits 20% and they think they've got us, the ball's suddenly in my hands in the endzone.

 

This is on top of the fact that we have very good 1v1 damage and stealth allows us to choose our targets. I often times top damage in warzones. I have done over 600k damage before. We have our weaknesses... we can't sprint, we can't pull, we can't knockback. These things frustrate me too, but we can't haev everything. Can you imagine if your opponent could stealth, sprint/gap close, heal, stun the whole team, and knock people back? It would be ridiculous. I honestly haven't seen anyone actually use this class/spec to its full utility. People are too simple-minded about what constitutes "utility".

 

THIS. I play a healer Scoudrel but depending on the map, opposing team composition and my teams composition I can DPS, control, scout, cap/guard nodes, and HEAL LIKE A BEAST, cleanse, sun, snare, DoT etc. I play this class BECAUSE of it's utility. Healing is only part of the show. The OP really missed the ball on this one...

Edited March 27, 2012 by Fylkras

[Chasidim]

THIS. I play a healer Scoudrel but depending on the map, opposing team composition and my teams composition I can DPS, control, scout, cap/guard nodes, and HEAL LIKE A BEAST, cleanse, sun, snare, DoT etc. I play this class BECAUSE of it's utility. Healing is only part of the show. The OP really missed the ball on this one...

 

no one says that we can't do all these things. i would guess every good operative does them. but - and that is a big BUT(t): every other class can do these things better than us. every other class has more utility, more sustained damage, more control and adds more to team- and objective-based pvp with less effort.

[Fylkras]

Bad WoW comparism. Rogues allways where one of those upper classes. And loled about the BM hunter in BC part.

 

Back to topic. It's kind of natural for the operatives not taking all those nerfs over and over again without any word or complaint. Just look at thes forums, theres at least one whine thread regarding the 1.2 changes for almost any class. We are one of the worst, if not the worst class if it comes to PvE DPS, and i guess the gap will just be bigger then now when 1.2 goes live (but i guess this is the wrong forum for this to discuss).

 

In my oppinion it's the smuggler / IA energy system which screws us this way. Not only do the Scoundrel/Operative, but also the gunslinger/sniper get worthless once they burned away their energy. Now you may argue Troopers/BH have the same issues. But they have significantly lesser skill costs then we do.

Take my DF gunslinger as an example: My DoT's cost 20 energy and if i want my combo to work i have to have both bleeds up before firing off wounding shots (30 energy). Thats a total of 70 energy. I have to maintain 60 energy to have the highest energy regeneration which is impossible with those costs. A shadow for example doesn't has that issue. Similar problems occur for Scoundrels/Operatives. It's all fine when we can kill targets within our first blows. But we aren't made for longer fights.

 

I vote for a revamped energy system.

 

I can't speak much for Gunsliger but I have played both Dirty Fighting and Sawbones and never had energy issues. I think part of the trick is slowing down that E-burn. I found it fairly easy to maintain the 60% balance required for fast regen by interspercing free shots and consuming Upper Hand with "free" abilities. Anyhow good luck with that on the gunslinger end I specifically specced for E retrurn myself.

[Slurmez]

Wow, you are blowing my mind right now.

 

You mean you actually think that the game should be balanced around players who can't bother to learn how to play their class?

 

The class, and all classes, will be balanced by metrics over the whole. The class got a nerf to the armour penetration because every single player on the class was able to have astounding burst, not because just a few were amazing. No game ever will balance around the exceptional because the very vast majority of players including just about everyone who posts in the PvP forums are resoundly mediocre in spite of their self delusion of being a PvP god.

 

IMO OPs potential is there, nothing makes me nerd rage more than being exploded on my vanguard by one of the few operatives on the server, the 1.2 changes are good for me and I think the class is strong, but given that you dont see many of them they will be invariably be made more attractive for players to play them. To think otherwise is crass stupidity.

[Fylkras]

no one says that we can't do all these things. i would guess every good operative does them. but - and that is a big BUT(t): every other class can do these things better than us. every other class has more utility, more sustained damage, more control and adds more to team- and objective-based pvp with less effort.

 

Then why am I consistently on the top of the heal charts with decent damage and getting between 3 and 5 votes per match? I think it is because we CAN provide the levels of "support" or "utility" but if you don't feel that way then I respect your opinion.

 

Va'andra and X'avia on Ajunta Pall

[Ich_Bin]

Then why am I consistently on the top of the heal charts with decent damage and getting between 3 and 5 votes per match? I think it is because we CAN provide the levels of "support" or "utility" but if you don't feel that way then I respect your opinion.

 

Va'andra and X'avia on Ajunta Pall

 

I think you are missing the point of this thread. Noone is complaining about Operative healing in PvP. Especially not when the 1.2 changes go live. Operative healers will be absolutely amazing.

What people are upset about is the nerf to Concealment.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[CanisAquilus]

Yeah. Heal ops are good at what they do.

 

But if you want to be damage post 1.2 you're going to be fighting an uphill battle.

Edited March 28, 2012 by CanisAquilus