When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[Saajin]

DPS wearing sin tanks do way too much damage.

 

I've seen a lot of these nerf shadow/assassin threads lately, and they all seem to be based not on the way the class is built, but on how we gear at the end game. As the above quote, and so many others, state quite plainly... the issue isn't shadow/sin tanks, it's shadow/sin tanks in DPS gear. And I'll give you that. Once we start decking out in the DPS gear, and then go further and start swapping out mods to increase Power and Surge, it just goes over the line.

 

However, I also see this as a gear issue, and not so much a class balance issue. I never hear anyone complain about a Shadow/Sin tank when they are wearing their Tank gear. We've just learned not to. And the reason why... because it's pretty worthless in PvP. Shadow/Sin tanking relies very heavily on Defense, Shield, and Absorption. This works great for the PvE game. It is also worth squat in PvP, as the most significant player attacks completely bypass this form of defense. So, we compensated, we picked up the Stalker sets and modded them up to jack our damage. This was the tipping point that made us OP. It has actually made me wonder many times why I don't see other Tank classes wearing DPS sets in PvP.

 

As a case in point, I was dueling a fellow Shadow today, both of us Battlemasters with roughly equal experience. We had the same level of survivability, but my DPS far outdid his. And it was entirely a gear issue, because I was in full stalker gear with a number of mods ripped out and replaced.

 

So I do understand people seeing us as OP right now, but I thought it worth a moment to try to focus on where the problem really comes in. I'm afraid I don't have any clever solutions to the problem, but I'd hate to see the shadow/assassin mechanics start getting mucked around with for a problem that really is caused by how we gear.

[Ryotknife]

Now I know you don't know what you're talking about.

Vanguards are the ****in bomb dude. Vanguard tanks in DPS gear, running a proper pvp shield spec, do INSANE amount of damage with consistant on demand burst that's easy to set up. Not to mention crazy good utility: Stun, aoe stun, charge, snare, pull w/ root, 6 second interrupt. A well played Vanguard wrecks house, period.

 

Guardians when spec'd right have one of the highest burst potential setups in the game with aoe crits for 4k on 4 targets, along with crazy good utility as well. Stun, charge, intervene, spammable aoe snare, push. Probably not as well rounded as vanguards, but still damn sexy when played right.

 

I R Tank. I have been tank in every MMO I've played. I eat, sleep, breathe and **** tanking. Swtor, for any of it's other faults, actually has some of the best tank mechanics in an MMO period.

 

....tank/dps pt hybrids do crap for damage, even their most powerful ability has difficulty critting for 2.5k without popping relic/adrenals, with most of their abilities critting for under 2k. the upside is they have more resources to play with IF they get attacked.

 

they lose about 30-40% dps compared to speccing pyro (30% less crit damage for railshot, 20% less armor pen for railshot, no thermal detonator, HAS to keep incendary missile dot up which does crap damage and is expensive, no powerful dot from pyro) in exchange for charge/root and using ion cylinder.

 

oh, and keep in mind there are two tank/dps specs for pts, CP and ironfist. the one i was talking about was CP. ironfist sacrifices even more damage than CP for more utility. course CP is going extinct in the next patch.

 

if you have a ironfist pt on your team in alderaan or voidstar, your team basically is basically down one person. ironfist and CP are both great specs for huttball, but practically useless in alderaan or voidstar.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ryotknife

[ForsakenKing]

just wanted to add that i dont think they need a nerf. on my gs, i can beat almost every shadow i have encountered and the only one (maybe 2) that gives me trouble is about 50/50 depending on who crits more.

[BambulaGTS]

How u do not understand why they are OP?

 

Some scrubs (even with famous names) for some reason spread false info about useles of "tanking stats" in SWTOR.

 

They are far from useless.

 

Take a 2 pure DPS classes (who probably should have around 5-10 % more overall DPS than other classes due not being hybrid): marauder and sniper.

 

Marauders today probably want to use anni spec. This spec have dot internal damage (not mitigated by armor and not subject of dodging shielding) plus a bunch of white melee attacks/abilities with hard hitting ability "annihilate" (31 pt talented ability). So to apply dots mara have to succesfully use dodgeable/shiledable/mitigated by armor attacks and his hard hitter annihilate is fully susceptible to tanking stats.

 

Take a sniper. Sniper has ranged abilities - fully susceptible by tanking stats and tech attacks which are mainly mitigated by armor (but not shiledable/dodgeable) except few internal damage dots - dart, corrosive granade and dot from series of shots talented in engeenering tree. Sniper "anti-tank" hard hitter skill "cull" is a ranged ability and is susceptible to dodge/shielding mecanics and armor mitigation (in it's "white" part).

 

As you see there is absolutely nothing beastly/devastating pure DPS classes can do vs tanking stats.

 

Main examples people put on the table when talking about useless of tanking stats are - tracer bots/lightning bots/smash bombers/operatives.

 

But hey - lightning bots have no armor penetration at all (they can use 31 pt talent in lightning tree for undodgeable/non mitigated internal autocrits but nobody uses this build) and tracer bots are susceptible to LoS/interrupts and hey twice particullary tankasins have 5 sec tech/force 200 % resist on relative low CD and combat stealth.

 

Smash bombers - hello tankassin knockback and force resistance (of couse not all tanks have such tools) but anyway let think tankassins are lucky tanks, but armor works here anyway (20 % armor penetration smash bombers will have from talents).

 

Operatives - their attacks are mainly not dodgeable/shieldable, but again armor works here. They can make 2 of their skills ignore 30 % armor but it is all.

 

So for some reason assasins have very good tanking talents so they can wear DPS gear while having a lot of avoidance/mitigation/hp from talents, rakata stim oh and tank stance (which provide no significant DPS restrictions) alone.

Edited March 26, 2012 by BambulaGTS

[VincentWolf]

And FINALLY after all the unneeded nerfs to classes that got them, we finally getting down to the real problem here. People finally starting to slowly realise that a truly op classes here are assassins and marauders! Hooray! Maybe after some time they'll finally get nerfed into oblivion, as they deserve (I'm rerolling a sentinel as of moment, btw, and still welcome all and any nerfs to this class, because it's ridiculous).

[Kriesha]

This was the tipping point that made us OP. It has actually made me wonder many times why I don't see other Tank classes wearing DPS sets in PvP.

 

 

The answer is: they don't need to. They have working DPS specs. Also, they both have heavy armor and their tank stance does not offer significant benefits (like self healing).

[EbonFade]

So hybrid tankasins with the right gear are tough, but they are not so tough that it feels game breaking except perhaps in Huttball (where imo they are the best class in the game for that wz).

 

Generally speaking, there dps is manageable to healers.

 

Contrast that with Juggernaughts, PT Pyros and Marauders.. The first two have burst that is just brutal, and the latter has a sustained dps that a tankasin can only dream off.

[HyperThomas]

sigh i didn't get into details for a reason, did you people not read any of my posts or just quote the one and complain. "you forgot all these things a sin tank uses! but you didn't put in everything a marauder uses either!" it was just damaging abilities.

 

 

You actually use discharge in pvp?

 

Wait so you weren't claiming that shadow only uses 4 abilities?

 

First read the post you made on page 12... direct quote: "Shadow/assassin dps rotation is 4 buttons. Don't know shadow equivs..." in the same post you said this: "Marauder damage for both pvp and pve = charge, assault, battering assault, deadly saber, rupture, choke, slash, annihilate..."

 

Second, read the post I made on page 13, demonstrating my shadow rotation, including 8 damaging abilities that are used.

 

Thirdly, read the post you made on page 13, direct quote: "I went with just damaging abilities there if you noticed should i add in everything for a mara/sent too?" as you can see 8 damaging abilities in my rotation... I see 8 for your marauder list too. Quote: "No one else dies in a stun or two because they can't activate defensive abilities? Pretty sure everyone suffers from that." You clearly didn't read my post here, I said infiltration shadows have the worst out of ability defense in the game. (excluding sorc, as they can have bubble up most of the time) I was also stating here, that the hybrid may need some nerfing, but not before the other trees are buffed for group combat.

 

Now read my post on P15 explaining to you pretty much what I have explained here, but with a bit more depth.

 

Lastly read the quote box included above, I already explained I use 8 damaging abilities in a fully planned rotation, (9 for stealthers), Marauder uses 8 as you have said: "Marauder damage for both pvp and pve = charge, assault, battering assault, deadly saber, rupture, choke, slash, annihilate..."

 

Did you have a point comparing these two classes or were you just trolling the community?

 

You have no credibility left in this thread, you don't bother to read posts correctly, or do any research, you also make up things to do with classes that you clearly do not have experience in. "i didn't get into details for a reason, did you people not read any of my posts or just quote the one and complain. "you forgot all these things a sin tank uses! but you didn't put in everything a marauder uses either!" it was just damaging abilities." I have listed the 8 damaging abilities I use in a rotation as a shadow proving you wrong, a marauder as you listed uses 8 damaging abilities, as you said "it was just damaging abilities". Your point = wrong.

 

Learn to read posts and research a class before comparing/criticizing it.

[HyperThomas]

BTW people, if you call a Tank with DPS armor "hybrid" You have no idea about MMOs and skill trees.

 

If this is how you classify "hybrid" and therefore unfair, take a look at Vanguard "hybrids", or Guardian "hybrids". Shadow is not the only class that can be a "hybrid" as you guys are defining it.

 

Don't forget a Shadow has to go 30 odd points into the tank tree to get the "perfect spec", last time I recall, you cannot be called hybrid going so deep into one tree.

 

If you nerf shadow "hybrids" to not break the class/cause unbalance Bioware will need to:

A) Nerf all other "hybrids" (these are just as bad)

B) Increase the viability of individual trees for Shadow in group combat. (especially Infiltration) (too much burst not enough survivability)

[JediDuckling]

And when can we expect the other trees to be balanced to be better for group play.

 

 

There's a reason why 90% of the people playing Assassin/Shadow are now playing hybrid.

 

i must admit a pure spec assasin/shadow is failry gimped but these hybrids are realy nuts lol and i can say they need a nerf yes

[HyperThomas]

So hybrid tankasins with the right gear are tough, but they are not so tough that it feels game breaking except perhaps in Huttball (where imo they are the best class in the game for that wz).

 

Generally speaking, there dps is manageable to healers.

 

Contrast that with Juggernaughts, PT Pyros and Marauders.. The first two have burst that is just brutal, and the latter has a sustained dps that a tankasin can only dream off.

 

This is the point I am trying to make, other classes can be that "hybrid" like a Shadow, no reason to just be complaining about Shadow.

[Kriesha]

How u do not understand why they are OP?

 

Some scrubs (even with famous names) for some reason spread false info about useles of "tanking stats" in SWTOR.

 

They are far from useless.

 

Take a 2 pure DPS classes (who probably should have around 5-10 % more overall DPS than other classes due not being hybrid): marauder and sniper.

 

Marauders today probably want to use anni spec. This spec have dot internal damage (not mitigated by armor and not subject of dodging shielding) plus a bunch of white melee attacks/abilities with hard hitting ability "annihilate" (31 pt talented ability).

 

Take a sniper.

 

As you see there is absolutely nothing beastly/devastating pure DPS classes can do vs tanking stats.

 

Sniper/Gunslinger is the least played class. For a good reason. And even they have a damage tree that has hard-hitting abilities largely unaffected by tank stats (Lethality for snipers).

 

And you are forgetting by far the most popular DPS classes: Merc and Sorc (Commando/Sage).

 

So if the choice is to take less damage from 2% of the playerbase or do more damage to 100% of the playerbase, I think the answer is pretty clear.

[Astarica]

Tanking isn't just about survival unless you're talking about Huttball, and in that map Juggernaut dominates as the tank but for different reason (ability to move the ball far outstrips whatever minor survivality edge they may have).

 

In PvP nobody's going to attack someone who is not capable of causing death in some way (healers keep people who can cause death alive). If you look at some guy in pure tank spec + gear who does 100K damage in a whole WZ, that guy could have invulnerability versus player damage and it really wouldn't have a significant impact on the offense. It's not even clear if the other two tanks have higher PvP survivality (Force Shroud is insanely strong versus players since virtually every dangerous attack falls under Force/Tech classification) but it really doesn't matter because nobody is going to be waste time killing someone who may do 100K damage no matter how hard or easy he is to kill. Guard alone is not a reason to want to kill the tank (one DPS can cancel out the advantage offered by Guard, and if the tank isn't doing anything else useful it's just a straight up even trade).

 

By the way if you're waiting for 3 stacks of HD to use Force Lightning it might explain why you don't see the class as overpowered, because waiting for 3 stacks of HD is a very long time. Due to the third stack of HD basically requiring an Energized Shock which is incredibly costly in Force, you can pretty much always do 2X2HD stacks instead of 1X3HD stacks and the former does way more damage than the latter. Sure, the heal is nice, but in PvP doing damage is often more important than not dying.

[Kabaal]

People class 31/0/10 as hybrid? Surely that would mean practically every spec for every class in the game is a Hybrid considering almost all of them put 31 points in one tree and use the rest in the bottom of the other ones... True hybrid assassin/shadow's were already nerfed.

[Vaipyr]

People class 31/0/10 as hybrid? Surely that would mean practically every spec for every class in the game is a Hybrid considering almost all of them put 31 points in one tree and use the rest in the bottom of the other ones... True hybrid assassin/shadow's were already nerfed.

 

Indeed.

This just in: Maxing out to top-tier of a tree makes you a hybrid. Also if you drink drano you will **** diamonds.

 

Wut?

[Astarica]

I think 'hybrid' here means tank specs wearing DPS gear, not so much as the spec itself is hybrid (it's clearly not).

 

There's no rules against tanks wearing DPS gear in any MMORPG. It usually simply won't work out but in the case of Assassins, it does. The reason why it works is because:

 

1. Dark Charge is simply way better than the other two stances.

2. Darkness tree is actually mostly a DPS tree to begin with.

 

So basically you're using a tree that is mostly offensive in nature, with a stance that is clearly the best stance out of all 3, and the result is that you are generally more powerful than the other two trees.

[HyperThomas]

People in here have no clue, every class has had nerf calls now, congrats PvP community.

 

Nerf shadow "hybrids" then nerf every other class. 31/0/10 is not hybrid.

True hybrid shadows (the ones that changed techniques during combat were nerfed a while back)

 

If people mean hybrid by tank with DPS armor, take a look at other classes:

-Vanguard (tank with dps gear)

-Guardian (mainly tank class that can spec into DPS)

-Operative healers (using dps gear)

 

You forget the fact that shadows (light armor) can only be tanks with damage reduction when they spec into the tank tree and activate the technique, unlike classes with heavy armor that can spec full DPS/heals yet still have massive defense. (Guardian DPS and Commando healers come into mind) Heck even the pure DPS class Sentinel has more defensive abilities than a shadow tank "hybrid".

[Darth_Acherus]

People in here have no clue, every class has had nerf calls now, congrats PvP community.

 

Nerf shadow "hybrids" then nerf every other class. 31/0/10 is not hybrid.

True hybrid shadows (the ones that changed techniques during combat were nerfed a while back)

 

If people mean hybrid by tank with DPS armor, take a look at other classes:

-Vanguard (tank with dps gear)

-Guardian (mainly tank class that can spec into DPS)

-Operative healers (using dps gear)

 

You forget the fact that shadows (light armor) can only be tanks with damage reduction when they spec into the tank tree and activate the technique, unlike classes with heavy armor that can spec full DPS/heals yet still have massive defense. (Guardian DPS and Commando healers come into mind) Heck even the pure DPS class Sentinel has more defensive abilities than a shadow tank "hybrid".

 

Get out of here with your logic and reason, these people won't have it!

[Astarica]

Marauders come close (will definitely be behind after 1.2 with nerf to Force Camo) but there is definitely no class that does any meaningful DPS with higher survivality than Darkness Assassins.

 

Heavy Armor by itself isn't survivality. DPS oriented PTs/Juggs gets killed rather easily due to lack of cooldowns. Yes Assassins pretty much only has one defensive cooldown, except Force Shroud is better than all the CDs put together from most classes.

 

Merc healers are hard to kill because they can heal themselves almost indefinitely. The Arsenal/Pyro counterparts are easier to kill than Marauders due to lack of nearly infinite heailng. At any rate, it's kind of stupid to compare survivality of a healer class. It'd probably take you longer to kill a Sage who is only healing himself the whole time compared to any DPS class, but the Sage healing himself the whole time also has no chance of beating you so the fact that his survivality is much higher than any DPS isn't really saying anything.

[Dianaid]

I think the OP's idea is that even though 31/0/10 as itself is not a hybrid spec (it definitely isn't, by definition), since he's using it combined with a dps gear set, he's playing hybrid.

He also seems to think hybrid playing in itself is a bad thing to do, and should be prevented by balancing measures. F'ck knows why.

 

What exactly is the goal of people calling for hybrid spec nerfs? They don't like the playstyles and need the devs to govern everyone into pure specs? That's all it can be. It's complete nonsense to claim that a shadow/sin hybrid spec was overpowered in terms of battleground efficiency/usefulness. Can 8 Tanksins win a battleground over any other group? Certainly not. And in balanced premades, no one wants a tank in dps gear to actually tank your huttball. So basically, this leaves pro people like the op in the gracious situation where they MAY get a spot in an 8man rated group as DPS, but only AFTER all the sentinel/maras, scoundrel/ops, commando/mercs were taken in. Because all these classes do far superior damage in their respective area of expertise and have similar survivability IN GROUP. Basically, going hybrid is the only thing that makes dps oriented shadow/sins viable in rated bgs at the moment, because absolutely nobody wants a light armor dps, with no survivability/utility (force pull) at all. It's only fair, we're allowed to do that, because sentinel/maras still have same or better defensive tools, and even more mobility.

 

The OP is completely wrong about why many shadows/sins play hybrid. not because it's op. On the contrary, in group situations it's upmostly balanced, as other people in this thread have stated, probably the most balanced class of all. The reason is, it's actually fun. A good mix of survivability, utility and decent damage output, other balanced classes have that too, for gods sake. look at marauders, look at scoundrels. Commandos aren't fun, because you spam one button. That gets changed, so they will be able to have more fun, isn't it great? Aren't we allowed to have fun?

[BambulaGTS]

Sniper/Gunslinger is the least played class. For a good reason. And even they have a damage tree that has hard-hitting abilities largely unaffected by tank stats (Lethality for snipers).

 

And you are forgetting by far the most popular DPS classes: Merc and Sorc (Commando/Sage).

 

So if the choice is to take less damage from 2% of the playerbase or do more damage to 100% of the playerbase, I think the answer is pretty clear.

 

Typical hybrid sorc damaging attacks are:

 

force lighning - fully mitigated by armor, chain lighning - fully mitigated by armor, death field - not mitigated by armor.

 

Typical hybrid sorc has no armor penetration.

 

Typical armor of tank assasin in DPS items - like 45 %. Bad? Do not think so.

 

Typical tracer bot damaging attacks are:

 

tracer missile - "partially" mitigated by armor (due to stacks from tracers and armor ignore cylinder), unload fully dodgeable/shieldable, partially mitigated by armor (see above), railshot fully dodgeable/shieldable, partially mitigated by armor, heatseeker missiles - partially mitigated by armor.

 

So it appears that from 4 attacks only 2 are less susceptible to avoidance/mitigation. Not bad, really.

[Mathelia]

People in here have no clue, every class has had nerf calls now, congrats PvP community.

 

Nerf shadow "hybrids" then nerf every other class. 31/0/10 is not hybrid.

True hybrid shadows (the ones that changed techniques during combat were nerfed a while back)

 

If people mean hybrid by tank with DPS armor, take a look at other classes:

-Vanguard (tank with dps gear)

-Guardian (mainly tank class that can spec into DPS)

-Operative healers (using dps gear)

 

You forget the fact that shadows (light armor) can only be tanks with damage reduction when they spec into the tank tree and activate the technique, unlike classes with heavy armor that can spec full DPS/heals yet still have massive defense. (Guardian DPS and Commando healers come into mind) Heck even the pure DPS class Sentinel has more defensive abilities than a shadow tank "hybrid".

 

your points are good. assassins wont get nerfed just beacause the op thinks he is too high on his horse.. what a ****in hypocrit he is.

[Astarica]

Nearly balanced can also be incredibly overpowered. If you have a 55% chance to win any fight, over a long time it becomes legalized robbery (house's edge on Blackjack is lower than 55% against non counting gameplay). Darkness is indeed a very balanced spec but it is on the favorable side of every matchup and this is amplified at the high levels of playing where every small advantage will be capitalized. And there are actually quite a few matchups that aren't anywhere near balanced for Darkness versus others that are in favor of Darkness.

[Dianaid]

Typical hybrid sorc damaging attacks are:

 

force lighning - fully mitigated by armor, chain lighning - fully mitigated by armor, death field - not mitigated by armor.

 

Typical hybrid sorc has no armor penetration.

 

Typical armor of tank assasin in DPS items - like 45 %. Bad? Do not think so.

 

Typical tracer bot damaging attacks are:

 

tracer missile - "partially" mitigated by armor (due to stacks from tracers and armor ignore cylinder), unload fully dodgeable/shieldable, partially mitigated by armor (see above), railshot fully dodgeable/shieldable, partially mitigated by armor, heatseeker missiles - partially mitigated by armor.

 

So it appears that from 4 attacks only 2 are less susceptible to avoidance/mitigation. Not bad, really.

 

Alright, but where is the imbalance in there? Sentis/maras also have 45% damage reduction for ~50% of the time they're being attacked, and even throw back some damage while being at it. Nifty little things. On top of that, they have another defensive cd that's very similar to shadow/sins, yet more powerful. And I guess 99% dmg reduction for 5sec is what everyone would take right away, no questions asked. Add the fact that any good sentinel/mara doubles the overall dmg output of the best hybrid sin on your server. Where exactly is the imbalance in there?

 

Nearly balanced can also be incredibly overpowered. If you have a 55% chance to win any fight, over a long time it becomes legalized robbery (house's edge on Blackjack is lower than 55% against non counting gameplay). Darkness is indeed a very balanced spec but it is on the favorable side of every matchup and this is amplified at the high levels of playing where every small advantage will be capitalized. And there are actually quite a few matchups that aren't anywhere near balanced for Darkness versus others that are in favor of Darkness.

 

Hybrid shadows/sins are only considered on the favorable side of 1v1 matchups. These are irrelevant in 8man premade rated wz situations. They have absolutely no overall advantage when looked at placed in a balanced 8 man team, in either tank or dps role, right BECAUSE of their hybrid nature. They can fulfill tank or dps roles, but neither in top efficiency

Edited March 26, 2012 by Dianaid

[sonarghost]

I think the OP's idea is that even though 31/0/10 as itself is not a hybrid spec (it definitely isn't, by definition), since he's using it combined with a dps gear set, he's playing hybrid.

He also seems to think hybrid playing in itself is a bad thing to do, and should be prevented by balancing measures. F'ck knows why.

 

What exactly is the goal of people calling for hybrid spec nerfs? They don't like the playstyles and need the devs to govern everyone into pure specs? That's all it can be. It's complete nonsense to claim that a shadow/sin hybrid spec was overpowered in terms of battleground efficiency/usefulness. Can 8 Tanksins win a battleground over any other group? Certainly not. And in balanced premades, no one wants a tank in dps gear to actually tank your huttball. So basically, this leaves pro people like the op in the gracious situation where they MAY get a spot in an 8man rated group as DPS, but only AFTER all the sentinel/maras, scoundrel/ops, commando/mercs were taken in. Because all these classes do far superior damage in their respective area of expertise and have similar survivability IN GROUP. Basically, going hybrid is the only thing that makes dps oriented shadow/sins viable in rated bgs at the moment, because absolutely nobody wants a light armor dps, with no survivability/utility (force pull) at all. It's only fair, we're allowed to do that, because sentinel/maras still have same or better defensive tools, and even more mobility.

 

The OP is completely wrong about why many shadows/sins play hybrid. not because it's op. On the contrary, in group situations it's upmostly balanced, as other people in this thread have stated, probably the most balanced class of all. The reason is, it's actually fun. A good mix of survivability, utility and decent damage output, other balanced classes have that too, for gods sake. look at marauders, look at scoundrels. Commandos aren't fun, because you spam one button. That gets changed, so they will be able to have more fun, isn't it great? Aren't we allowed to have fun?

 

+1

 

I was going to make a post on this forum but it seems like you pretty much wrapped up everything I was going to say..and probably better than I would have anyways!