When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[ShadowOfVey]

I'd love for disjunction to be moved to tier 1 of darkness so all specs could grab it.

 

Seems like the kind of thing that should be baseline for all specs. It's easily the best single talent point you can spend in any of the 3 trees.

 

Do that and change that tier 1 insulation talent in deception (increase armor by 15% while surging/lightning is active) to 60% and suddenly playing madness or deception doesn't sound bad at all. It wouldn't make them anything like tanks but it would really keep them from getting blown over by light winds.

 

They can't really live without some extra mitigation. Sages have bubble for this reason, light armor just takes too much damage without the extra help of some sort. Another way would simply to have surging or lightning charge stance increase your armor as baseline (by 40% or something, then the talent can raise it a bit more)

 

 

Of course, none of this would be any sort of buff to tankasins...since they play in dark charge and get disjunction anyway.

Edited March 25, 2012 by ShadowOfVey

[HyperThomas]

Shadow/assassin dps rotation is 4 buttons. Don't know shadow equivs but

 

sin pve = saber strike, voltaic slash, shock, discharge. that's 4.

 

sin pvp hybrid spec = saber strike, thrash, shock, and everytime you hit 3 stacks of harnessed darkness Lightning woo! 4 for dps. use defensive CD's accordingly.

 

Marauder damage for both pvp and pve = charge, assault, battering assault, deadly saber, rupture, choke, slash, annihilate...

 

 

WE could add in recklessness to both the sin but yeah it's a 1.5 min cd. whatevs.

My standard rotation (1v1) as a "Hybrid DPS" (if you could call it that) is

Activate FP, adrenals, relics, FiB, Kinetic ward, Project (usually FP used up now), force breach for -5% crit on opponent) 2x double strike, force stun, project, shadow strike, spinning kick, project, (telekinetic throw (after 3 projects)), battle readiness, warzone medpac... in total heals for approx 7.5k health), resilience for 5 secs, (fit whatever abilities in for the 5 secs), force cloak, reopen with deflecion up, project, 2x double strike activate deflection, project to get 9% melee crit bonus, finish with a spinning strike.

 

Please don't tell me sentinel is harder to play, I play both and match them equally as difficult.

In a 1v1 encounter, it goes to the player who knows their class the best, currently both are on the same level with utility, both have a ton of abilities at their disposal.

 

 

ATM the only viable spec for PvP for shadow is the kinetic combat/balance "hybrid"

Currently anyone playing infiltration for group combat (DPS spec) as a shadow will die in a stun or 2... basically with no chance to activate defensive abilities, a DPS shadow is screwed (light armor being the main reason behind the problem). In 1v1 combat, a shadow can dominate as long as they can keep their target stunlocked, you must defeat your target before it breaks the stunlock.

 

I would happily play infiltration, if it was viable in group pvp combat, but it just cannot cope. I love the fact that my sentinel is getting buffed, but I am annoyed that BW is not nerfing the KC/Balance Spec and not significantly buffing the infiltration tree.

 

BTW everyone stop calling it hybrid, because it isn't.

[olagaton]

For those saying that Tankassins are putting up the same numbers as DPS spec assassins, lets actually look at some numbers, and why that is, and what the differences are with the numbers.

 

NOTE: This scenario is assuming a FAIR distribution in which the DPS class does twice the damage of the Tank spec, and Tank spec takes half the damage compared to the other spec. Most should find that a fair tradeoff. That said, this example is to show why people are wrong in expecting that a DPS spec should put out more DPS than a tank spec, even in a fair system.

 

Lets say a DPS spec puts out 400 dps.

Lets say a Tank spec puts out 200 dps.

 

Lets say a DPS spec dies in 10 seconds.

Lets say a Tank spec dies in 20 seconds.

 

Rez zone timer is like 16 seconds, with a 4 second run back to the action.

 

Time:

10 seconds in:

DPS spec has done 4000 damage, but dies. Sent to RZ.

Tank spec has done 2000 damage.

TOTAL: DPS 4000, Tank 2000

 

Next 10 seconds

DPS is still in rez zone.

Tank spec does 2000 damage, but dies. Sent to RZ.

TOTAL: DPS 4000, Tank 4000

 

Next 10 seconds

DPS and Tank spec released, with 4 seconds of travel time.

In the remaining 6 seconds...

DPS does 2400 damage. Then dies, sent to RZ.

Tank does 1200 damage.

TOTAL: DPS 6400, Tank 5200

 

Next 10 seconds

DPS is in RZ.

Tank does 2000 damage, then dies. Sent to RZ.

TOTAL: DPS 6400, Tank 7200

 

Next 10 seconds

DPS and tank spec released after 6 seconds, with 4 seconds in travel time.

TOTAL: DPS 6400, Tank 7200

 

Next 10 seconds

DPS spec does 2400 damage in 6 seconds. Dies, sent to rez.

Tank spec does 2000 damage in 10 seconds.

TOTAL: DPS 8800, TANK 9200

 

Next 10 seconds

DPS spec is in RZ.

Tank spec does 1200 damage in 6 seconds, dies, sent to RZ.....

TOTAL: DPS 8800, TANK 10400

 

Rinse/repeat.

 

As you can see, even with a "fairly" distributed system of DPS vs Tankability (each excelling in their specific area), the Tank class will eventually pull ahead because they see more action than the DPS spec. In terms of Burst DPS, the DPS class is putting it out faster, but the Tank spec will inevitably meet, and most likely exceed the total damage done simply because they spend less time in the Rez Zone than a DPS spec.

 

Granted SWTOR isn't exactly those numbers, but the example above is to give perspective to doubters as to why Tankassins actually show up having good damage numbers, when most of it really has to do with the fact that they just see more fight-time. High total damage does not equal high burst DPS, which unfortunately is what many people seem to correlate with the damage numbers.

 

If you want to quickly cap a target, burst DPS is going to trump a consistency spec any day, which is why you typically see Melee spec'd Op's sent out to take out solo artists on one side of the WZ capture maps (void and cw), because they can burst dps, kill quickly, and cap in a flash. But if they are asked to defend a side consistently while backup comes, they typically can't.

 

Conversely, if a Tankassin tries to take out a solo artist at a turret or door, the opponent typically has time to call for backup before the Tankassin can drop him, because he lacks burst DPS. But if you call upon a Tankassin to harass an area or defend a cap-target you'll typically find they excel very well in that position, even if they don't end up killing anyone.

Edited March 25, 2012 by olagaton

[heikaze]

. But HD/HS Shadows/Assassins I just don't get what the problem is. They can heal 3%/tick over 3s once every 9s or something like that

 

Please understand the class first before making posts about them lol. It is 12% percent hp over 3 seconds because of the talent in their tanking tree. Harnessed Darkness. They can do it quite often. And I have seen 2k per tick on lightening/tele. throw, with cd popped. That is 8k damage from 1 spell alone in 3 seconds.

[Xerain]

My standard rotation (1v1) as a "Hybrid DPS" (if you could call it that) is

Activate FP, adrenals, relics, FiB, Kinetic ward, Project (usually FP used up now), force breach for -5% crit on opponent) 2x double strike, force stun, project, shadow strike, spinning kick, project, (telekinetic throw (after 3 projects)), battle readiness, warzone medpac... in total heals for approx 7.5k health), resilience for 5 secs, (fit whatever abilities in for the 5 secs), force cloak, reopen with deflecion up, project, 2x double strike activate deflection, project to get 9% melee crit bonus, finish with a spinning strike.

 

Please don't tell me sentinel is harder to play, I play both and match them equally as difficult.

In a 1v1 encounter, it goes to the player who knows their class the best, currently both are on the same level with utility, both have a ton of abilities at their disposal.

 

 

ATM the only viable spec for PvP for shadow is the kinetic combat/balance "hybrid"

Currently anyone playing infiltration for group combat (DPS spec) as a shadow will die in a stun or 2... basically with no chance to activate defensive abilities, a DPS shadow is screwed (light armor being the main reason behind the problem). In 1v1 combat, a shadow can dominate as long as they can keep their target stunlocked, you must defeat your target before it breaks the stunlock.

 

I would happily play infiltration, if it was viable in group pvp combat, but it just cannot cope. I love the fact that my sentinel is getting buffed, but I am annoyed that BW is not nerfing the KC/Balance Spec and not significantly buffing the infiltration tree.

 

BTW everyone stop calling it hybrid, because it isn't.

 

 

i went with just damaging abilities there if you noticed should i add in everything for a mara/sent too?

 

BTW i have both a 50 sin and mara and sent so ok.

 

 

 

ATM the only viable spec for PvP for shadow is the kinetic combat/balance "hybrid"

Currently anyone playing infiltration for group combat (DPS spec) as a shadow will die in a stun or 2... basically with no chance to activate defensive abilities, a DPS shadow is screwed (light armor being the main reason behind the problem). In 1v1 combat, a shadow can dominate as long as they can keep their target stunlocked, you must defeat your target before it breaks the stunlock.

 

No one else dies in a stun or two because they can't activate defensive abilities? Pretty sure everyone suffers from that.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Xerain

[mausty]

Shadow/assassin dps rotation is 4 buttons. Don't know shadow equivs but

 

sin pve = saber strike, voltaic slash, shock, discharge. that's 4.

 

sin pvp hybrid spec = saber strike, thrash, shock, and everytime you hit 3 stacks of harnessed darkness Lightning woo! 4 for dps. use defensive CD's accordingly.

 

Marauder damage for both pvp and pve = charge, assault, battering assault, deadly saber, rupture, choke, slash, annihilate...

 

 

WE could add in recklessness to both the sin but yeah it's a 1.5 min cd. whatevs.

 

I got 3 bars of abilities that i use frequently. I dont know what class you're playing brother. Also, sins who are using VS are for sure using maul as well.

Edited March 25, 2012 by mausty

[Ravenolf]

Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going. Who can really argue that the Tankassin is a little too overpowered?

[Tiresias]

Sentinels/Marauders and Kinetic Shadows/Darkness Assassins overpowered?

 

Well I've seen everything it seems. The two classes that everyone felt sorry for just a month ago are now overpowered? Did they delete Sages/Sorcs and Commandos/Mercs from the game?

 

Calling a melee class -- even one with 10m of range on several of their abilities -- "overpowered" in this range-dominated game speaks more about the nerfherder than the class that he is attempting to nerfheard.

 

Furthermore, if you nerf Kinetic/Darkness what are Shadows and Assassins left with? Snipers work better than the other trees!

[ShadowOfVey]

Sentinels/Marauders and Kinetic Shadows/Darkness Assassins overpowered?

 

Well I've seen everything it seems. The two classes that everyone felt sorry for just a month ago are now overpowered? Did they delete Sages/Sorcs and Commandos/Mercs from the game?

 

Calling a melee class -- even one with 10m of range on several of their abilities -- "overpowered" in this range-dominated game speaks more about the nerfherder than the class that he is attempting to nerfheard.

 

Furthermore, if you nerf Kinetic/Darkness what are Shadows and Assassins left with? Snipers work better than the other trees!

 

Poor snipers. Now if we really want to drive home the point on how bad something is, EVEN SNIPERS ARE BETTER THAN THAT! =P

[Smashbrother]

Sentinels/Marauders and Kinetic Shadows/Darkness Assassins overpowered?

 

Well I've seen everything it seems. The two classes that everyone felt sorry for just a month ago are now overpowered? Did they delete Sages/Sorcs and Commandos/Mercs from the game?

 

Calling a melee class -- even one with 10m of range on several of their abilities -- "overpowered" in this range-dominated game speaks more about the nerfherder than the class that he is attempting to nerfheard.

 

Furthermore, if you nerf Kinetic/Darkness what are Shadows and Assassins left with? Snipers work better than the other trees!

 

Both of those classes/specs are extremely gear dependent. A month ago, most people did not have full BM/rakata gear. Now they do, and those classes are ****** in WZs.

 

Did you ever play WoW? If you did, think of sents/tankasins as like the warrior. Warriors were terribad when wearing crappy gear, but became exponentially better as their gear got better.

[Smashbrother]

Wrong on so many levels. Full BM assasin has 40-41% armor and other tanks have 50ish or so and i dare you to tell me that marauder doesn't have more dps or survivability. Tank assassin does not have same dps as a real dps and this is a fact! A deception spec assassin can spam 4k crits all day and a tank on the other hand hardly ever breaks 3k and even that with an assassinate thats usable at 30%hp or less.

 

A tank assassin is unable to 1v1 a healer of equal gear and skill unless they get really lucky with adrenal/relic clickie. Any pure dps can kill a healer 1 on 1 especialy with clickies. In Deception spec my assassin can hit 5k-6k crits with clickies back to back in tank spec they are 3-4k on light armor.

 

I had my BM before ilum and trust me i lvled and played other classes to 50, assassin isn't even my main anymore. Tank assassin is a lot of fun to play in a pug warzone being self sufficient and having tons of utility. In an actual premade with dedicated healers and the other group having them as well then yay! you don't die much but you can't kill anything ether, as a pure dps however u can still burn people down 2 fast for heals to catch up if you do it right - all hybrid specs are pug specs!

 

Tank assassin is only OP in 1 WZ - hutball and even that is not due to dps or survivability, but utility! Force pull + Sprint/forceshroud and kockback are all perfectly suited for that particular wz. If i play hutball i hardly even bother fighting, i just put people in fire all game long especially if they got the ball or happen to be a healer and i usualy score most goals on my team. Ball carrier in the fire while i'm on the other side ready to get it as soon as he dies = 99% chance of a score. That is OP if anything. In other WZ tank assassin is just another mediocre dps with some tank perks and exactly 1 long cooldown aoe that is even worth using.

 

Watch 1.2, rated WZ and less hutball make what i just said blatantly obvious.

 

For sure sentinels are a bit better, but they're also OP, so it doesn't count.

 

The tankasin can put out as much dps as dps specs because of their survivability. They die less, so they have higher uptime. Higher uptime = doing more damage, accomplishing objectives.

 

Let's put it this way. You'll rarely--if ever--see any guardian or vanguard tanks break 300k dam, 150k prot, 75k. Tankasins can consistently do this. It's not fair to the other tanks. Tankasins need to be brought down to the level of the other tanks.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Exilim]

Wrong on so many levels. Full BM assasin has 40-41% armor and other tanks have 50ish or so and i dare you to tell me that marauder doesn't have more dps or survivability. Tank assassin does not have same dps as a real dps and this is a fact! A deception spec assassin can spam 4k crits all day and a tank on the other hand hardly ever breaks 3k and even that with an assassinate thats usable at 30%hp or less.

 

A tank assassin is unable to 1v1 a healer of equal gear and skill unless they get really lucky with adrenal/relic clickie. Any pure dps can kill a healer 1 on 1 especialy with clickies. In Deception spec my assassin can hit 5k-6k crits with clickies back to back in tank spec they are 3-4k on light armor.

 

I had my BM before ilum and trust me i lvled and played other classes to 50, assassin isn't even my main anymore. Tank assassin is a lot of fun to play in a pug warzone being self sufficient and having tons of utility. In an actual premade with dedicated healers and the other group having them as well then yay! you don't die much but you can't kill anything ether, as a pure dps however u can still burn people down 2 fast for heals to catch up if you do it right - all hybrid specs are pug specs!

 

Tank assassin is only OP in 1 WZ - hutball and even that is not due to dps or survivability, but utility! Force pull + Sprint/forceshroud and kockback are all perfectly suited for that particular wz. If i play hutball i hardly even bother fighting, i just put people in fire all game long especially if they got the ball or happen to be a healer and i usualy score most goals on my team. Ball carrier in the fire while i'm on the other side ready to get it as soon as he dies = 99% chance of a score. That is OP if anything. In other WZ tank assassin is just another mediocre dps with some tank perks and exactly 1 long cooldown aoe that is even worth using.

 

Watch 1.2, rated WZ and less hutball make what i just said blatantly obvious.

 

Tank assassins are very useful in The Civil War, no one holds a point, solo, better. Oh and Voidstar, who else would you want watching the quiet door fighting 1v1 or 1v2s while **** storms rage at the other side.

[AMKSED]

Tank assassins are very useful in The Civil War, no one holds a point, solo, better. Oh and Voidstar, who else would you want watching the quiet door fighting 1v1 or 1v2s while **** storms rage at the other side.

 

This.

 

I don't know how many times I've 2v1'd at doors and nodes in Alderaan/Voidstar. Now as more and more people are going to be playing the class, PvP is going to be very stupid watching hybrid Sins lock down matches by themselves.

[KavikaDestroyer]

So OP yet can't solo any geared healer without lucky crits. I'm rank 62 and yet I still get 4K smashes to the face so explain that one. Juggs/ Guardians are really *********** good right now but flying under the radar despite having better mitigation and equal utility (force leap is *********** sweet). Tell me, what roll does a tankassin fit in a 2tank/2healer/4dps group make up? What can a tankassin do that a skilled jug /guard can't?

 

Calls for nerfs are *********** stupid until rateds come out. That will flesh out the men from the boys and the OP specs/classes/compositions from everyone else.

[DarthMaulUK]

dont feed the troll

[Goktsu]

A lot people are going to leave this game with these imbalances ruining pvp.

[Goktsu]

Hybrid sin Shadow can now take down 2 people in pvp, this game is becoming a joke . Now 90% of Sin have this spec even noobs are facerolling with it.

[Smashbrother]

So OP yet can't solo any geared healer without lucky crits. I'm rank 62 and yet I still get 4K smashes to the face so explain that one. Juggs/ Guardians are really *********** good right now but flying under the radar despite having better mitigation and equal utility (force leap is *********** sweet). Tell me, what roll does a tankassin fit in a 2tank/2healer/4dps group make up? What can a tankassin do that a skilled jug /guard can't?

 

Calls for nerfs are *********** stupid until rateds come out. That will flesh out the men from the boys and the OP specs/classes/compositions from everyone else.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. Guardians (of any spec) get trolololol by tankasins very badly.

 

A good player will watch your buff bar for those 4 singularities to stack, and then pop their 100% tech/force immune cd and laugh as you just wasted sweep and 3 focus. A focus guardian has one of the worst survivabilities of any class. Saber ward is our only CD and it's on a 3 min cd, and it's really not that great. Especially when compared to the shadow's 100% tech/force immunity or a sentinel's 99% all damage reduction skill. Plus both those abilities have like a much shorter cd.

 

The tankasin is also the best ball carrier.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Smashbrother

[sheeldon]

infiltration could be buffed up a bit>.>

[broganthomas]

A shadow beat my father! And **** my mother! NERF EM!! Edited March 25, 2012 by broganthomas

[broganthomas]

I laugh every time I see someone cry about a shadow... so funny. All I do is watch them die.

[Varcado]

I agree these guys burst is a bit too high.

[HyperThomas]

i went with just damaging abilities there if you noticed should i add in everything for a mara/sent too?

 

BTW i have both a 50 sin and mara and sent so ok.

 

 

 

 

No one else dies in a stun or two because they can't activate defensive abilities? Pretty sure everyone suffers from that.

 

Ok first off, I use more than 4 damaging abilities, like you claim the shadow uses...

FiB, Project, Double strike, shadow strike, force breach, telekinetic throw, mind crush (with stealthers), spinning strike and even saber strike occasionally when out of force. You have tried to prove marauder is somehow harder to play, by stating they have more damaging abilities than a shadow? What utter rubbish.

 

Second, you got a point to having both a sin and a marauder?, or was that just added for no reason?

 

And when I am talking about dieing in a stun or two, I mean infiltration shadow has the worst out of def ability defense in the whole game, this is because of the light armor req, the defense is even worse than a sorc/sage (mainly because they can have their bubble up all the time) you may want to read things more carefully, as I explained all of this in my earlier post.

 

My point, if you are too lazy to go back and correctly read what I had said was this: That the infiltration shadow tree needs to be buffed for survivability, so that it is viable in group combat, also nerfing the KC/Balance tree will encourage more to play in one tree more than a spread out spec. I want it to be balanced in survivability and nerfed in burst damage, to be able to compete with pure DPS classes like the sentinel in group combat.

 

TL;DR: I will give you credit for trying...

Don't even think to try and fool the community by saying "ooh sin/shadow is easy to play only 4 damaging abilities" then comparing it to marauder claiming that they 'use' more damaging abilities than a shadow/sin. Other people do have a knowledge of this game, and we certainly don't need your full of rubbish and misleading 'expert knowledge/opinion' on which class is harder to play.

You need to learn to read more, and think before posting.

 

Good day.

[Gnugthreeonefive]

They're glaringly OP in huttball. Other WZ's, I don't think they're the strongest spec, so perhaps overall it's passable. But right now, since we're getting a ton of huttball matches on my server, they're OP overall. Amount of huttball matches in 1.2 will be toned way down.

[Dmasterr]

You can make a full WZ team out of assassins (tank spec/dps gear) and sorc healers and still be one of the strongest team composition for rated WZ

 

And tank assassins will never get nerfed, because they cant nerf it aside maybe forcing players to wear gear(mods) dependent on their spec.

 

It stops being funny when you have 4+ shadows on 1 side, and 4+ assassins on the other.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr