Scoloplastic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) If we look at the 3 main archetypes of classes and their pvp roles in this game we have 2 that have various counters, and one that does not: DPS - Can be countered by CC'ing them, melees can also be kited to some extent, ranged can be LOSed to some extent. Healers - Can be countered by CC'ing them, as well as interrupts and healing debuffs. A sole dps might not always be enough to burst one healer, but a good one can\will keep a healer occupied and lower his healing output towards the rest the group Tanks - Main staple ability is guard - which has no counter - it is a fire and forget, 15m range ability. Once it's on someone, all the tank needs to make sure is that he is within 15m of his guarded ally. CC has absolutely no barring on it (even though logically it should, how can you guard someone when you are incapacitated?) and it cannot be removed, or have its efficiency lowered via some debuff, in any way possible. I just think it's poor design to implement such a huge, game changing ability in your game and not give any counter whatsoever to it. Thoughts? Edit: Changed range to 15m - Which I still consider a large range. Since all tanks are very mobile and have a lot of gap closers, it's very hard to separate the tank and the one he's guarding. Edited March 23, 2012 by Scoloplastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadisu Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Sorry to be nitpicking, but guard may be castable at 30m, however it doesn't work unless the guarded is at max 15m. Edited March 23, 2012 by Nadisu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyoMamoru Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) It is counterable. They bring two people, you bring two people. 1) Dot the tank and the healer. Tank is now taking 1.45x dot damage every tick. 2) Use AOEs every time the tank and healer are within a radius. Tank is now taking 1.45x damage. 3) During this, focus on the healer doing Interrupts, but never hard CC. You don't CC until you can kill at ~40%. 4) Save your relics to burst once the target is below 40%. At the start of a fight, you're always taunted. 5) Slow/root the healer. The tank will wander away usually as they get dragged into further and further fights. Class Specific wise: 1) Powertech/Assassins can pull the healer away. If one particular pairing is giving you an issue, you can double pull them away, creating a 60 m gap. 2) Knockback the least mobile into a pit. 3) Healing Debuffs, only Marauders have them, but Snipers gain them in 1.2. Edited March 23, 2012 by KyoMamoru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AetherMcLoud Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Guard has 15 meters range. 15, not 30. Knockback/Pull/Stun all stuff like that is a completely valid counter to guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGoldCrayon Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) It's a strong ability, but tanks give up alot for it. Look at a tanks warzone stats sometime, you may see alot of guard points, but their dps is horrible. Easiest way to get around guard is to simply kill the tank. Have someone sit on the healer (typically this is what he will be guarding) and interupt the heals, everyone else assist train the tank. Tanks gonna die pretty fast. edit: wasn't aware of the range. If its 15 meters, makes it even easier to counter. Edited March 23, 2012 by AGoldCrayon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikaj Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 He knows our uber OP secret, Guard cannot be countered and its small dmg reduction is ending all the fun in PVP. Oh wait, DPS don't have a problem nuking guarded targets...my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinnie Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 It's a strong ability, but tanks give up alot for it. Look at a tanks warzone stats sometime, you may see alot of guard points, but their dps is horrible. Easiest way to get around guard is to simply kill the tank. Have someone sit on the healer (typically this is what he will be guarding) and interupt the heals, everyone else assist train the tank. Tanks gonna die pretty fast. edit: wasn't aware of the range. If its 15 meters, makes it even easier to counter. As a PvP tank (sadly) I still gain more DPS then some people in DPS spec, while keeping up a good protection (150-250k protection) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GianBaal Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Guard has no counter because it is basically a debuff to the tank. If I want to kill a tank, I attack the healer he guards. that occupies the healer and bypasses the tanks armor in the process, so it is not as big a dmgloss as it might sound at first. Quite the contrary, alot of tanks die because their healer is busy with itself. Works surprisingly good once you have the dmg (customized champion and upwards). test it :-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BambulaGTS Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 AoEs counter guard. Tank receives 150 % damage from AoE if AoE hits both tank and guarded target. And some AoEs > orbital strike are very nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGoldCrayon Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 As a PvP tank (sadly) I still gain more DPS then some people in DPS spec, while keeping up a good protection (150-250k protection) Sad for those dps, I agree. I was working under the assumption that people weren't falling asleep at their computers though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Sookie Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The counter? Separate the guarded player from the tank. Kill the tank. AOE both targets when close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warkat Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Because without guard nobody would roll a healer because they woulld all die in a stunlock or 2 at best with 2 people who know what their doing trucking their face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoloplastic Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'm not asking to remove guard or nerf its protection, I'm just notiing that right now there's no set in stone counter to it - except for smart tactics. I agree pulling the tank or the healer away is a counter, probably the only one - but it is very situational, most of the time if the healer or tank know what they are doing, it takes 1-2 seconds till the gap is closed and guard is back on. If the range was smaller then it would be easy to counter with aoe, but as of now, that is also a very situational option - only a very bad tank\healer duo would be caught in the same aoe together. I think guard should take a bit more thought and require the tanks to be more proactive. If, for example, there was an ability that removes guard for 2-3 seconds, it could require the tank to stop what he's doing for a second and quickly apply guard again to his healer - a good player would be able to always reapply his guard fast and not disrupt his play too much. Right now, a tank just applies his guard and goes about his business - that's why a lot of the times in warzones, the protection & damage dealt numbers are not mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiazabi Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 guard is annoying, guard+taunt is godmode for whoever he is protecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skillmare Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'm not asking to remove guard or nerf its protection, I'm just notiing that right now there's no set in stone counter to it - except for smart tactics. I agree pulling the tank or the healer away is a counter, probably the only one - but it is very situational, most of the time if the healer or tank know what they are doing, it takes 1-2 seconds till the gap is closed and guard is back on. If the range was smaller then it would be easy to counter with aoe, but as of now, that is also a very situational option - only a very bad tank\healer duo would be caught in the same aoe together. I think guard should take a bit more thought and require the tanks to be more proactive. If, for example, there was an ability that removes guard for 2-3 seconds, it could require the tank to stop what he's doing for a second and quickly apply guard again to his healer - a good player would be able to always reapply his guard fast and not disrupt his play too much. Right now, a tank just applies his guard and goes about his business - that's why a lot of the times in warzones, the protection & damage dealt numbers are not mutually exclusive.First off, even if it's possible to manage, it won't be fun. Reapplying guard, for whatever reason, would be an extreme nuisance. Secondly, as a tank, you're already spam taunting and focusing on more than one target, doing damage and using as much control and pestering the opposing team as much as you can. Compare this to what a DPS or even a healer does and it would quickly become hard and annoying to maintain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damolawler Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 If we look at the 3 main archetypes of classes and their pvp roles in this game we have 2 that have various counters, and one that does not: DPS - Can be countered by CC'ing them, melees can also be kited to some extent, ranged can be LOSed to some extent. Healers - Can be countered by CC'ing them, as well as interrupts and healing debuffs. A sole dps might not always be enough to burst one healer, but a good one can\will keep a healer occupied and lower his healing output towards the rest the group Tanks - Main staple ability is guard - which has no counter - it is a fire and forget, 15m range ability. Once it's on someone, all the tank needs to make sure is that he is within 15m of his guarded ally. CC has absolutely no barring on it (even though logically it should, how can you guard someone when you are incapacitated?) and it cannot be removed, or have its efficiency lowered via some debuff, in any way possible. I just think it's poor design to implement such a huge, game changing ability in your game and not give any counter whatsoever to it. Thoughts? Edit: Changed range to 15m - Which I still consider a large range. Since all tanks are very mobile and have a lot of gap closers, it's very hard to separate the tank and the one he's guarding. It's easy enough to just kill the tank isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabredance Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The counter? Separate the guarded player from the tank. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PloGreen Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 If we look at the 3 main archetypes of classes and their pvp roles in this game we have 2 that have various counters, and one that does not: DPS - Can be countered by CC'ing them, melees can also be kited to some extent, ranged can be LOSed to some extent. Healers - Can be countered by CC'ing them, as well as interrupts and healing debuffs. A sole dps might not always be enough to burst one healer, but a good one can\will keep a healer occupied and lower his healing output towards the rest the group Tanks - Main staple ability is guard - which has no counter - it is a fire and forget, 15m range ability. Once it's on someone, all the tank needs to make sure is that he is within 15m of his guarded ally. CC has absolutely no barring on it (even though logically it should, how can you guard someone when you are incapacitated?) and it cannot be removed, or have its efficiency lowered via some debuff, in any way possible. I just think it's poor design to implement such a huge, game changing ability in your game and not give any counter whatsoever to it. Thoughts? Edit: Changed range to 15m - Which I still consider a large range. Since all tanks are very mobile and have a lot of gap closers, it's very hard to separate the tank and the one he's guarding. Its one of the greatest assets a tank can bring to the team. It is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spew Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The counter? Separate the guarded player from the tank. Kill the tank. AOE both targets when close. Ditto. If there're a ledge, like in the pit when one has to run to the goal, knock them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DariuszPol Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 How is guard huge ? ~ 15m - not much when pull / graple have 30m range ~ Tank or guarded target must stay in range ~ so AOE work nice ~ Tank take 50% damage you deal to guarded target SO in other words ~ if 2 DPS attack tank and guarded person ~ tank get damage just because you attack his guarded target ~ tank get damage because he is attacked too ALSO: ~ tank in defensive stance build much less rage so except abilities like counter attack - tank deal less damage than normal because it's 2x longer for him to build rage So COUNTER for this ability is NOT IGNORING THE TANK. If guarded person is under fire and tank is under fire he will no longer die much faster but he also deal less damage than normal. l2p issue here I see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknoghostmagic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Split dps the tank will die pretty quick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exphryl Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 If they made it so taunts wouldn't stack with guard it would go a long ways to fix the ability a bit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightertripod Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 If we look at the 3 main archetypes of classes and their pvp roles in this game we have 2 that have various counters, and one that does not: DPS - Can be countered by CC'ing them, melees can also be kited to some extent, ranged can be LOSed to some extent. Healers - Can be countered by CC'ing them, as well as interrupts and healing debuffs. A sole dps might not always be enough to burst one healer, but a good one can\will keep a healer occupied and lower his healing output towards the rest the group Tanks - Main staple ability is guard - which has no counter - it is a fire and forget, 15m range ability. Once it's on someone, all the tank needs to make sure is that he is within 15m of his guarded ally. CC has absolutely no barring on it (even though logically it should, how can you guard someone when you are incapacitated?) and it cannot be removed, or have its efficiency lowered via some debuff, in any way possible. I just think it's poor design to implement such a huge, game changing ability in your game and not give any counter whatsoever to it. Thoughts? Edit: Changed range to 15m - Which I still consider a large range. Since all tanks are very mobile and have a lot of gap closers, it's very hard to separate the tank and the one he's guarding. I really don't see guard as an issue as in some situations its a death wish for the tank as they actaually take more damage than the person they are guarding I often die before the person I am gaurding with out taking any direct damage sure healer/tank combo is very strong best to spread the damage between as its quite hard in this game to switch heal and the tank takes damage when you attack either either splitting the attackers up between tank and healer or switching target often can really stress the healers out with the correct use of interupts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyillo Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 If we look at the 3 main archetypes of classes and their pvp roles in this game we have 2 that have various counters, and one that does not: DPS - Can be countered by CC'ing them, melees can also be kited to some extent, ranged can be LOSed to some extent. Healers - Can be countered by CC'ing them, as well as interrupts and healing debuffs. A sole dps might not always be enough to burst one healer, but a good one can\will keep a healer occupied and lower his healing output towards the rest the group Tanks - Main staple ability is guard - which has no counter - it is a fire and forget, 15m range ability. Once it's on someone, all the tank needs to make sure is that he is within 15m of his guarded ally. CC has absolutely no barring on it (even though logically it should, how can you guard someone when you are incapacitated?) and it cannot be removed, or have its efficiency lowered via some debuff, in any way possible. I just think it's poor design to implement such a huge, game changing ability in your game and not give any counter whatsoever to it. Thoughts? Edit: Changed range to 15m - Which I still consider a large range. Since all tanks are very mobile and have a lot of gap closers, it's very hard to separate the tank and the one he's guarding. Tanking requires teamwork. Countering that requires equal teamwork. Typically a guildmate will force push the healer, and I will force pull the tank in complete opposite directions. That's IF they're proving to be too much of an issue. Usually don't have to do this unless it is a Bounty Hunter/Bounty Hunter tank/heal multiple healer team combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surgin Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) You should also watch if you are taunted... personally I will attack a guarded player until taunted then swap to the tank until it wears off then back to the guarded player. Use your cc to keep the one you aren't attacking busy and so on. It is possible to kill 2 people at once thanks to guard depending on your class and given that one isn't a healer even as 2 vs. 1 Edited March 23, 2012 by Surgin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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