Assaultrooper Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 this. you should be throwing in a few rapid shot attacks anyways as a bh even now. plus, with the new CGC requirement for pyrotech, leading off with rapid shots can apply the dot, and save you 25 heat from incendiary missile. AHEM*** In this thread we are not talking about using the Tanking stance but PURE dps... We all use the CGC right now and if specced into Thermal Detonator, we rarely use Incendiary Missle, and we right now all have to use the auto attack as it is right now... If you play a sniper for you to comprehend what is happening here, imagine if both ambush and explosive probe had an increased cooldown. Now imagine if above that Bioware putted all of your energy cost decreasing talents in a 6 sec cooldown.... Thats what we had to endure with this patch :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shredbull Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 They should reverse this nerf. Or at least make the proc chance 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 AHEM*** In this thread we are not talking about using the Tanking stance but PURE dps... We all use the CGC right now and if specced into Thermal Detonator, we rarely use Incendiary Missle, and we right now all have to use the auto attack as it is right now... If you play a sniper for you to comprehend what is happening here, imagine if both ambush and explosive probe had an increased cooldown. Now imagine if above that Bioware putted all of your energy cost decreasing talents in a 6 sec cooldown.... Thats what we had to endure with this patch :\ again, this is being blow WAY out of proportion. yes, the change to PPA is going to reduce damage output and heat management ability. but only slightly, and any decent player will adjust accordingly, and will likely not have to change anything in their playstyle. im going to say this again, because it keeps getting covered up by all the QQ. - remove the CGC restriction. killing hybrid builds is just dumb, let people have unique play styles. its not like the carolina parakeet was an overpowered build anyways. - prevent PPA from proc'ing while rail shot is off cooldown. since we've got to deal with the internal cooldown now, i would rather not waste PPA proc's while rail shot is already off cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbb Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 The true problem with this nerf isn't that it's too much dmg reduction. It isn't that they nerfed the good luck and kept the bad It's heat. I've done the math, you are going to have to throw in SUBSTANTIAL autoattacks to keep heat down to the point where it's nearly half of your abilities. This will cause a huge loss in dmg, heat just won't stay down anymore. Right now the burstiness is a problem as well as the high dmg output, but the heat BARELY stays okay, you still have to pepper in some autoattacks. After this happens the number of railshot procs is gonna be drastically reduced, and heat is gonna be out of control, I'm calling it right now, pyro will be unplayable in 1.2 do to heat management. The correct thing to do was either make the proc chance 100% or make procing railshot vent more heat than it currently does, because presently, overheating is gonna be a serious issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba-Sean Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 very well thought out post, you make your case eloquently and convincingly. I assure you, BIOWARE DOESN'T CARE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordredz Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 very well thought out post, you make your case eloquently and convincingly. I assure you, BIOWARE DOESN'T CARE. Bioware cares but its been tested and how they want it, period... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I don't think balancing the game around Void star damage is the right thing to do because so much damage is AoE....But you know what? Let's stop arguing because it's pointless and whatever Bioware decides to do, they're going to do. We may have strongly disagreed so far, but overall I still appreciate your input and I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to me so far. Well personally I consider your posts less of an argument and more of a civil discussion, but yes, whatever BW wants to do it will do. I will say this though - while Voidstar may have more AoE opportunities than Civil War, I don't think it's a very large % of total damage output in those high scoring games. Very few people are getting killed so, there are fewer door rushes. Everyone is just spread out and cranking on their mouse buttons. I think it's a more accurate representation of dps ability than a dps meter reading damage to a target dummy. Because you will get interrupted, stunned, pushed back, need to spend time to flip on defensive countermeasures, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Bioware cares but its been tested and how they want it, period... No, it's BEING tested, and my guess is theres ~5 people doing the testing since not many people play pyro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) The true problem with this nerf isn't that it's too much dmg reduction. It isn't that they nerfed the good luck and kept the bad It's heat. I've done the math, you are going to have to throw in SUBSTANTIAL autoattacks to keep heat down to the point where it's nearly half of your abilities. This will cause a huge loss in dmg, heat just won't stay down anymore. Right now the burstiness is a problem as well as the high dmg output, but the heat BARELY stays okay, you still have to pepper in some autoattacks. After this happens the number of railshot procs is gonna be drastically reduced, and heat is gonna be out of control, I'm calling it right now, pyro will be unplayable in 1.2 do to heat management. The correct thing to do was either make the proc chance 100% or make procing railshot vent more heat than it currently does, because presently, overheating is gonna be a serious issue. This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking would happen to our rotation w/ the longer heat venting mechanics tied to the PPA proc. I've been sitting out of the discussion until I could see some more feedback from the PTS regarding the ICD and PvP, but I haven't really seen anyone coming forth (which makes me even more nervous for how it's being tested internally on the PTS). Looking at your spreadsheet, though, it looks like all of the numbers you've got plugged are correct, which definitely seems to spell gloom for the state of Pyro PTs in PvP come 1.2. I am disappoint. No, it's BEING tested, and my guess is theres ~5 people doing the testing since not many people play pyro. Yes, the silence coming from the PTS regarding the state of the PPA nerf in PvP is disturbing; the low population of our class in general coupled w/ that silence makes me think it's probably not being tested in the ways that it should be before it goes live. Edited March 27, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exphryl Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 This really boils down to the fact if you make sweeping class changes, it's asinine to NOT have a char copy for players that want to put in the work. I'd like to, but the char copy program was just for guild which well, nobody else in my guild waned to test anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carjohnrod Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 bump for informative thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fafryd Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 They should change it so that the ability reduces the general cooldown on HIB and make HIB cost less and be done with it. No RNG, but also no terrible clunky gameplay mechanics with this hidden lockout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) I thought about it for a while and realized that a flat cd reducer on PPA would be kind of cruddy, since we couldn't get back to back rails that way. ICD of 4.5 on PPA would be the best solution Edited March 29, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agooz Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 if the AP changes dont pan out, pts will be forced into ironfist, a tank/dps hybrid that does pitiful damage but has more utility and survivability. Ironfist is a tank spec, not a tank/dps hybrid. Parakeet on the other was a tank/dps hybrid. There is nothing in the ironfist build that adds an ounce of dps over a 31 ST build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agooz Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) All the math here is interesting, but in all honestly it is all theoretical. While for some cases it reflects what we should expect, in many others it doesnt simply because PvP specifically has too many variables. I may have a different playstyle than many as a pyro. I go into every fight all out. I am not planning my heat management for the next fight or two fights ahead. This nerf will make heat management rough, even outside the parameters of the math discussed here. From my experience a big advantage of burst, leading to a much quicker kill, will give me more time to vent heat (passive venting or a quick 1-2sec of recharge) while I switch and go to another target. When fights are prolonged, as in the case of fighting healers, you see the effect of that very clearly. Either you get to a non-manageable heat level, and/or the fight changes because now 1-3 more people are coming to save the healer. So even if you manage to take out the healer, you are left with high heat fighting the rest of the mobs. Having our burst nerfed that much, I see us running in more of these situations with other classes not just healers. All our fights will be prolonged (whether we win or loose is beside the point). Instead of quickly taking out someone on our term, which is how we pyros usually do, we will often fall victims to the side effects of longer fights, which also mean having much less time venting heat between fights over the course of an entire game. Edited March 29, 2012 by Agooz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVallik Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) More predictable damage is preferred by good players These changes are thought out to keep some fluidity in the rotation to make things interesting without too much random feast/famine scenarios. The changes are good because it actually raises the skillcap on PT Pyro. what do propose said PT fill the gap with seeing as venting heat will happen less? inc missle - hell no to much heat thermal det - every 15s unload - does pitiful damage rapir shots - well looks like the only choice.... how is knowing your going to do less damage than before going to be better than having a chance of doing alot more? change equates to no chance of getting lucky and blowing something up but LESS chance of really bad luck with procs removed spike dmg to even out the dmg but all they did was cut off the top they didnt even anything out the lowpoint is the same and the highpoint is just moved down considerably Edited March 29, 2012 by DarthVallik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVallik Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Funny thing, unload and flame thrower are heat efficient, only IM is not. Flame thrower in PVE isnt bad in PVP its possibly the least effect skill in the game heat wise as you opponent just moves a few feet back and avoid 2/3 of the dmg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVallik Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 They nerfed all the burst DPS in 1.2. If they unnerf PT then they need to unnerf my Focus Guardian too. merc heatseeker +10% dmg that aready hits for 4.5K all the time i expect to see 5k hits all the time with the change thats not burst? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shredbull Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Spam harder bro. On topic : Pyrotechs should have gained a buff for other specs rather than a nerf for the only viable spec. The tank spec is a complete joke. You're better off pumping points into pyrotech for the extra endurance and shield cooldown. The middle spec, advanced prototype I think, is completely useless for several reasons. Theres no sustainable damage, no decent gap closers, and no extra defenses PLUS the end tier skill sucks. But no, bioware just nerfs our only spec and decides to buff marauders, which are insanely strong , and leave assassins un nerfed. This game will go down the drain once 1.2 hits, and it wont be saved by 500 new money sinks called legacy system. PvE and PvP will be dominated by the FOTM classes, also known as the strongest classes, and bioware will continue randomly nerfing/buffing classes to create imbalances ON PURPOSE, simply to keep people playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediDuckling Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 pyrotech dps railshot tree is OP as hell if you can only hit 5k with your railshot you are obviously doing something wrong. you can hit up to around 8k railshots when they crit against any target because of the 90% armor pen and 30% crit damage bonus ontop of the other damage increases from procs. ive seen many pyrotechs flame dot champion+ players followed by a rail shot and rocket punch and killing them with those 3 abilitys.not only that they have a 30% chance with 1 ability and a 60% chance wit another to reset railshot/high impact bolt from its 15 second cd and cost nothing to cast im sorry but typing all that drivel to sound smart is kind of void when you could of just put it simple. powertechs/vanguards dps needs a nerf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inayat Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 pyrotech dps railshot tree is OP as hell if you can only hit 5k with your railshot you are obviously doing something wrong. you can hit up to around 8k railshots when they crit against any target because of the 90% armor pen and 30% crit damage bonus ontop of the other damage increases from procs. ive seen many pyrotechs flame dot champion+ players followed by a rail shot and rocket punch and killing them with those 3 abilitys.not only that they have a 30% chance with 1 ability and a 60% chance wit another to reset railshot/high impact bolt from its 15 second cd and cost nothing to cast im sorry but typing all that drivel to sound smart is kind of void when you could of just put it simple. powertechs/vanguards dps needs a nerf Like a guildie always says; You really must be constipated, cause you're full of Sh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I don't see how PT Pyro is OP compared to Marauder. Marauder does the same damage and has way more damage mitigation mechanics. That having been said, I did have to chuckle at: inc missle - hell no to much heat thermal det - every 15s unload - does pitiful damage rapir shots - well looks like the only choice.... As a Merc Pyro, here's my view on those very same abilities: inc missle - awesome, I get to setup my Unload! thermal det - every 15s unload - overall my best attack. Too bad I have to stand still and get interrupted half the time rapid shots - this is over 50% of my attacks, so I better get used to it Basically, all the stuff you think is a crappy step down, is what a Merc Pyro looks forward to. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poulay Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 pyrotech dps railshot tree is OP as hell if you can only hit 5k with your railshot you are obviously doing something wrong. you can hit up to around 8k railshots Sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) I don't see how PT Pyro is OP compared to Marauder. Marauder does the same damage and has way more damage mitigation mechanics. That having been said, I did have to chuckle at: As a Merc Pyro, here's my view on those very same abilities: inc missle - awesome, I get to setup my Unload! thermal det - every 15s unload - overall my best attack. Too bad I have to stand still and get interrupted half the time rapid shots - this is over 50% of my attacks, so I better get used to it Basically, all the stuff you think is a crappy step down, is what a Merc Pyro looks forward to. LOL. Atleast you have a 2nd DPS tree to spec into. Our 2nd tree is the autistic 1st cousin of frankenstein. Edited March 29, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payneintherear Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Ever think the reason they're less played is because YOU DO **** LIKE THIS? Wait...so the class was less played before they did this, BECAUSE they did this? WHAT!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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