BIOWARE: PPA needs to be 4.5 seconds, not 6, and all is fair.

[Agooz]

All I see is "wah wah wah" in these threads.

 

6 seconds on PPA is just fine. Pyro is far too powerful in PvE as-is, and it needs to be reined in more than just about any other class currently. Buffing everything else isn't the answer.

 

And then there are the trolls who dont bother reading or seeing other people's point of view.

No wonder, his profile is TooSlo lol

Edited March 21, 2012 by Agooz

[Theology]

All I see is "wah wah wah" in these threads.

 

6 seconds on PPA is just fine. Pyro is far too powerful in PvE as-is, and it needs to be reined in more than just about any other class currently. Buffing everything else isn't the answer.

 

You see 'wah wah wah' in constructive posts where people voice their concerns and providing factual evidence that 6s on PPA is too long?

 

You're a tool.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Theology

[Cryonic_Preacher]

ignore the kids, they trolling for fun without having arguments , they look only on words like damage without using there brain, and see that this thread isn't about damage nerf or buff crys Edited March 21, 2012 by Cryonic_Preacher

[Varicite]

Considering Pyro PT's parsing numbers in PTS are putting them in the top 3 in DPS, 4.5 seconds will put them well above every other DPS class.

 

So in order for this to work, we need a damage nerf as well.

 

You better come up with methods of reducing our damage output if you plan on pushing this idea.

 

You're still the only person I've seen say this at all.

 

I'd be curious to see these parses w/ lists of classes they were parsed against and what kind of gear they are wearing. Oh, and for which fight (mechanics, length, etc).

 

All I see is "wah wah wah" in these threads.

 

6 seconds on PPA is just fine. Pyro is far too powerful in PvE as-is, and it needs to be reined in more than just about any other class currently. Buffing everything else isn't the answer.

 

While your argument of "I want to see your class knocked down a peg" was quite compelling, you still haven't brought anything to the table in the way of actual proof in regards to how nerfing our heat regeneration by 50% is in any way "just fine".

Edited March 21, 2012 by Varicite

[SneiK]

Considering Pyro PT's parsing numbers in PTS are putting them in the top 3 in DPS, 4.5 seconds will put them well above every other DPS class.

 

So in order for this to work, we need a damage nerf as well.

 

You better come up with methods of reducing our damage output if you plan on pushing this idea.

 

Top 3??? That doesn't sound OP at all. Infact, it's a total opposite. We have no mobility and poor chance to do objectives, unlike many other DPS classes. So, all we have is that dmg. And bear in mind that we, a ranged class that can cast WHILE moving IS going to do top numbers dmg most of the time. This is no suprise, and shouldn't be. But does this dmg win the warzones? Not likely.

 

They can't balance dmg solely on the numbers at the end of the game. Well - they could - if we only had team deathmatch...Which we don't...

 

If dps ruled the WZs, why is 1 out 3 players in a WZ a Sorc/sage? If dps was the most important element in a WZ why are people pulling their hair out about the insane utilities for sorc/sages?

 

Yes, most of the time actually, when my team does more dmg than the opponents, we lose...Funny eh? ...Objectives.

Edited March 21, 2012 by SneiK

[Theology]

4.5 is the magic number folks.

[Assaultrooper]

Considering Pyro PT's parsing numbers in PTS are putting them in the top 3 in DPS, 4.5 seconds will put them well above every other DPS class.

 

So in order for this to work, we need a damage nerf as well.

 

You better come up with methods of reducing our damage output if you plan on pushing this idea.

 

Are you serious!? You said before we were doing something like 1700 dps when everyone was doing 1500!!! I thought you meant we were top dps and by like 20% margin!!!

 

SO my damage is getting nerfed because I am in Top 3?! THATS NOT OP! AND I AM ANGRY NOW!

 

Wooozaaaa.... I should be doubting your sources, I really should but since your the only one talking about what actually happened in the PTS...

Edited March 21, 2012 by Assaultrooper

[Varicite]

Are you serious!? You said before we were doing something like 1700 dps when everyone was doing 1500!!! I thought you meant we were top dps and by like 20% margin!!!

 

SO my damage is getting nerfed because I am in Top 3?! THATS NOT OP! AND I AM ANGRY NOW!

 

Wooozaaaa.... I should be doubting your sources, I really should but since your the only one talking about what actually happened in the PTS...

 

I'm doubtful as well until I see some actual proof.

 

Y'know, internet and all that jazz.

[busterbone]

Hey everyone, I made a post on the PvP forums about this change around the same time this change went up. Feel free to check it out and discuss the changes there too, it might help catch Bioware's notice. I'll add a link to this post in the PvP forum post; there are some great ideas here!

 

Post on the PvP forums: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=371363

[Theology]

Thanks! feel free to edit your original post with anything you find might be worthy t oadd to your post from the threads here.

[SneiK]

Considering Pyro PT's parsing numbers in PTS are putting them in the top 3 in DPS, 4.5 seconds will put them well above every other DPS class.

 

So in order for this to work, we need a damage nerf as well.

 

You better come up with methods of reducing our damage output if you plan on pushing this idea.

 

 

Considering that dps doesnt win WZs, and considering that the AC completely lacks any decent utility, it stands to reason that being in the top 3 or even being #1 dps is completely reasonable. Since when are classes ONLY balanced based on their dps output? If dps ruled the WZs, why is 1 out 3 players in a WZ a Sorc/sage? If dps was the most important element in a WZ why are people pulling their hair out about the insane utilities for sorc/sages?

If Bio is strictly looking at damage output as their way to balance classes, then I already lost faith in the devs.

 

...Here's a game that I just played to show what we mean that dmg/healing done at the end of the match, GIVES NO INFORMATION ABOUT BALANCE WHAT SO EVER.

 

http://s1068.photobucket.com/albums/u454/suneiku/?action=view&current=dmgnotmatters.png

 

Our dmg: 1,8 Mil, Our heal: 1,0 Mil

 

Their dmg: 1,1 Mil, Their heal: 380k

 

Now...You still wanna balance the classes around the scoreboard?

 

PS: Guess what classes they had most? Shadow...Suprise. And despite the score suggesting it was a close match, it really wasn't...We had a lucky break one moment, and due to our dps they had a hard time capturing mid back. But...Mobility? ...Yeah, they won the race (outran our ppl at side, by the time we get to the side, they alrdy have mid...)

Edited March 22, 2012 by SneiK

[NyteSabre]

I agree with a 4.5 sec cd, means we have an approx 50% chance to rail shot at 6 secs.

 

OR

 

The other alternative is that if a FB/RP procs a rail shot during the 6 second internal cooldown, it will automatically refresh once the 6 secs are over, and not get ignored.

 

 

Personally id prefer the second option. I think everyone is happy with a 6 sec rail shot, they just don't want to have to wait 9 secs on average for it to proc.

[Theology]

I'd prefer they drop the 'famine and feast' model all together and just have PPA reduce the CD by 9 seconds. all problems solved.

[Iserath]

WOW the OP's thinking and write up was perfect... his 4.5 sec or eve 3 or 4 sec time between procs would actually make it fair.... i first saw his post here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=371363

 

 

GREAT WORK!!!! first of all bh is the farrrrr from the first class to get a nerf like this... all i have to say is sorcs..marauders...Guardians... nerf them.. please.. wanna talk about spamming abilities??? sorc hybrid?? sorcs grab wrath in the madness tree, madness gives force lightning NO MORE CD, wrath gives force lightnings damage (that tics multiple times) each tic has a 30% chance to make your next damaging force attack with a cast time cast automatically with 20% MORE damage...(Force lightning has a POSITIVE resource usage when talented, meaning you have MORE force after you use it than BEFORE) Also in the lightning tree, they get lightning barrage giving force lightning 2x ticking speed and 2x channeling speed... AND THEN they get Lightning Effusion giving any force attack to crit gives your next 2 force abilities 50% reduce force cost.. also gives force run a 10 sec reduced CD just for added bonus... Also within the first 2 tiers of lightning and madness you get tons of +crit% and +damage to multiple attacks..9% less force with all force abilities at all times...Lightning strike has a 100% chance to increase your force regain speed by 10% x3 for a total of 30% force regeneration ONTOP of all the other force saving talents and insane skills in the FIRST TWO TIERS and the 3rd at the max!!! ALSO Shock with a 45% chance to re-hit for an aditional 50% damage... hybrid setups are INSANE for sorcs.....

Edited March 22, 2012 by Iserath

[Wallach]

I'd prefer they drop the 'famine and feast' model all together and just have PPA reduce the CD by 9 seconds. all problems solved.

 

I certainly wouldn't want them to do that since it would lower burst a bit too far for PvP purposes, but even if I did I don't know how you'd address the heat issues this would cause.

[Iserath]

i just cant believe they would do something like this... when so many other classes cough cough SORC... get free proc or proc+50% more damage or channel x2 and tic x2 super easy.. its all in my post above... but wow..

 

 

/signed

 

5/5 stars

[Sevvy]

6s ICD on the bread and butter ability for Pyrotech is way too high. 4 GCDs is a long time for a good player. 4.5s is better. But I think a flat reduction in the CD of Rail Shot from PPA is the real answer.

 

I think the ICD is going to do a lot more harm than they realize. People are going to save their Rocket Punch, Heat is going to be a huge problem, RNG still sucks and will always suck(have you learned nothing from how much players hate the PvP gear grind?). I agree that back to back to back procs was over the top. But a knee-jerk huge nerf like this isn't the answer, either.

 

And kind of an off-topic thought: After all the nerfs to classes in 1.2, it'll be scary to see the nerfs in future patches for the alpha classes, Sent/Mara and Shadow/Assassin.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Sevvy

[Assaultrooper]

6s ICD on the bread and butter ability for Pyrotech is way too high. 4 GCDs is a long time for a good player. 4.5s is better. But I think a flat reduction in the CD of Rail Shot from PPA is the real answer.

 

I think the ICD is going to do a lot more harm than they realize. People are going to save their Rocket Punch, Heat is going to be a huge problem, RNG still sucks and will always suck(have you learned nothing from how much players hate the PvP gear grind?). I agree that back to back to back procs was over the top. But a knee-jerk huge nerf like this isn't the answer, either.

 

And kind of an off-topic thought: After all the nerfs to classes in 1.2, it'll be scary to see the nerfs in future patches for the alpha classes, Sent/Mara and Shadow/Assassin.

 

Who knows given how changes have come I don't see them nerfing either sents or assassins directly :/ maybe a nerf to all tanking stance damage, but not much else...

 

I bet next class to be nerfed will be operatives tho

[Cryonic_Preacher]

So we have a constructive thread, but after a week no dev give us feedback, after looking today's patchnotes, i got the feeling that bioware will totally ignore our feedback and didn't look inside this thread.

 

really disappointing

 

without fixing the heat issue problem with the 6 seconds, the fun has gone.

 

I can't understand that they didn't test this change, with the 6seconds you can't use skills like IM with 25 Heat to refreshing our second dot.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Cryonic_Preacher

[Theology]

We still have a few weeks before 1.2 rolls out. There's some hope yet.

[Iserath]

lower that time down from 6 seconds and allow it to work on burning targets... not just with that one cylinder.... let US CHOOSE what cylinder we want to use!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edited March 23, 2012 by Iserath

[Varicite]

lower that time down from 6 seconds and allow it to work on burning targets... not just with that one cylinder.... let US CHOOSE what cylinder we want to use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I really don't think they're going to revert the CGC-only change.

 

I'm pretty sure they made that change for a reason.

[Theology]

Yeah, Assassins had the same change made, that is not going to change and I dont necessarily think it should.

 

But 6s needs to be come 4.5 seconds. Or PPA changed to a flat CD reducer.

[Kaarsa]

I have been thinking about all this problem quite a lot, reading most of topics about that on forums and 1 thing is bothering me. Let me use diagram from OP:

 

 

--- --- --- --- --- ---

FB RS FB FB FB RS

 

So, at the moment, on average, you will be rail shotting every 6 seconds. (from the start of the first RS to the start of the second)

 

1.2: Average proccing (2 FB required on average)

 

!--- --- --- --- --- !--- ---

FB_RS_X_X_FB_FB_RS

 

 

As you can see, now we get to rail on average every 6 seconds, but 1.2 we will be averaging 7.5 seconds.

 

 

 

So, according to the above, current theoretical rotation is 3xFB, RS.

 

This is 4 GCD, 6seconds. Heat regen is 5/sec. Overall cost of above skills is 16x3 = 48 (RS is free). You regen 30 heat in this time +8 heat vented by RS. At the and of those 6 seconds you are at 10 heat.

 

Another rotation and you are at 20 heat at the end.During next rotation you will overheat.

 

Conclusion:

 

3xFB + RS is not sustainable. Throwing in RP is helping, but we have to remember that current proc rate on FB is 30%, not 33,33%, so average proc will be not exactly after 3 FB.

 

Anyway, to achieve completly sustainable roation, you have to throw rapid shots into every cycle. This way every rotation will leave you at +2,5 heat, this will be negated by higher chance of RP to proc PPA and you can (on average) do this without end.

 

Drawback? Using rapid shots you are now "wasting" chance for PPA to proc.

 

In 1.2 you will proc PPA on average every 7,5 sec. So you can do FB, rapid shots, FB, FB, RS and so on.

 

Difference? You are not "wasting" your chance for PPA.

 

 

 

Another thing. What is your chance to go for 9 seconds without proc now? (9 sec because this is CD of RP, and trying to get a proc by spamming RP+5 FB will leave you overheated, so you really dont want to do that).

 

0,55*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7=0,09

 

What are you chances for not getting PPA proc for 9 sec in 1.2? (1RP+3FB, becasue during 2 GCD you cant proc PPA)

 

0,4*0,55*0,55*0,55=0,067

 

 

Overall conclusions:

 

Pyro burst was nerfed. No doubt here. That was a goal of the nerf anyway.

 

Overall DPS is the same, since rotation has not changed (for prolonged fights, where amount of abilities used gives results close to statistical averages).

 

Risk of severe overheating by not getting PPA procs is now lower, and you can time fillers (rapid shots) better, because they will now not waste your chance to proc PPA.

 

Please read my post without emotions and if I made any mistakes correct me, I will try to fix my calculations then.

 

Answers "you are a vanguard troll, **** from our forum" will be ignored, I post here because in vanguard forum there is almost no discusion about this change, PT community is much more active in this topic.

 

PS. In 1.2 TD+IM+RS+RP+RS has 60% chance to happen if you start with RS off cd and is still a nice burst IMO (but ofc not exactly heat efficient. Well, it is burst after all;))

 

PS2. I knew I forgot something - free interrupt is something that will help with heat management too, especially in pvp. It is always 8heat:)

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kaarsa

[Theology]

I have been thinking about all this problem quite a lot, reading most of topics about that on forums and 1 thing is bothering me. Let me use diagram from OP:

 

 

--- --- --- --- --- ---

FB RS FB FB FB RS

 

So, at the moment, on average, you will be rail shotting every 6 seconds. (from the start of the first RS to the start of the second)

 

1.2: Average proccing (2 FB required on average)

 

!--- --- --- --- --- !--- ---

FB_RS_X_X_FB_FB_RS

 

 

As you can see, now we get to rail on average every 6 seconds, but 1.2 we will be averaging 7.5 seconds.

 

 

 

So, according to the above, current theoretical rotation is 3xFB, RS.

 

This is 4 GCD, 6seconds. Heat regen is 5/sec. Overall cost of above skills is 16x3 = 48 (RS is free). You regen 30 heat in this time +8 heat vented by RS. At the and of those 6 seconds you are at 10 heat.

 

Another rotation and you are at 20 heat at the end.During next rotation you will overheat.

 

Conclusion:

 

3xFB + RS is not sustainable. Throwing in RP is helping, but we have to remember that current proc rate on FB is 30%, not 33,33%, so average proc will be not exactly after 3 FB.

 

Anyway, to achieve completly sustainable roation, you have to throw rapid shots into every cycle. This way every rotation will leave you at +2,5 heat, this will be negated by higher chance of RP to proc PPA and you can (on average) do this without end.

 

Drawback? Using rapid shots you are now "wasting" chance for PPA to proc.

 

In 1.2 you will proc PPA on average every 7,5 sec. So you can do FB, rapid shots, FB, FB, RS and so on.

 

Difference? You are not "wasting" your chance for PPA.

 

 

 

Another thing. What is your chance to go for 9 seconds without proc now? (9 sec because this is CD of RP, and trying to get a proc by spamming RP+5 FB will leave you overheated, so you really dont want to do that).

 

0,55*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7=0,09

 

What are you chances for not getting PPA proc for 9 sec in 1.2? (1RP+3FB, becasue during 2 GCD you cant proc PPA)

 

0,4*0,55*0,55*0,55=0,067

 

 

Overall conclusions:

 

Pyro burst was nerfed. No doubt here. That was a goal of the nerf anyway.

 

Overall DPS is the same, since rotation has not changed (for prolonged fights, where amount of abilities used gives results close to statistical averages).

 

Risk of severe overheating by not getting PPA procs is now lower, and you can time fillers (rapid shots) better, because they will now not waste your chance to proc PPA.

 

Please read my post without emotions and if I made any mistakes correct me, I will try to fix my calculations then.

 

Answers "you are a vanguard troll, **** from our forum" will be ignored, I post here because in vanguard forum there is almost no discusion about this change, PT community is much more active in this topic.

 

PS. In 1.2 TD+IM+RS+RP+RS has 60% chance to happen if you start with RS off cd and is still a nice burst IMO (but ofc not exactly heat efficient. Well, it is burst after all;))

 

PS2. I knew I forgot something - free interrupt is something that will help with heat management too, especially in pvp. It is always 8heat:)

 

At the moment, we rail shot on average of every 3-5 seconds (being leniant). Usually one FB and one RP is enough to get the proc, then going to 3x FB when RP is on CD.

 

You also kind of reiterated our point, however, in that the rotation allows for no wiggle room now that our heat venting has been cut in half. the above math pertains ONLY to proc'ing PPA, leaivng out IM, TD, DFA, stuns, etc. That is why we're upset. we're being bottle necked into using 4 abilities because of the heat dependance of the tree. Having to use heat, to expend heat, on top of an RNG mechanism is just terrible design.

 

Also, it IS a severe DPS decrease because the rotation does change. I'm not sure how you came up with the math of going from 1.5k-2k FBs to 500 damage rapid shots isn't a dps decrease.

 

Where before it would be:

 

FB (1.5k) RP (2k) RS (3.5k crit) > FB > FB > FB > RS

 

to

 

FB > RP > RS > AA > AA > FB > RP > RS

 

MASSIVE dps loss..

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology