Healer Testing and the Search for "Underlying Changes"

[Valfodr]

Did anyone actually tried trooper/bh in action, or all you tests were on fleet?

And why you think, to balance a classes need to keep most op untouched? Yes, nerfs hurts, but i don't mind if it's make game better.

Combat medic is best healing class atm. You can solo heal almost every 8 man nightmare encounters. Unlike to other healers you can bring noticable dps, have best survivablity and some nice utility.

And we still will be the best after patch, but a bit nerfed:P There are no problems for CM in new raid content. Oh ye, and i like my incombat res.

 

lmao. K.

 

Have you only played a combat medic? Or are you really a Sorc pretending to be a medic?

 

PS: I don't mind nerfs to balance things either. When my sorc was nerfed, I saw that coming a mile away. I don't see why my IA and Merc who were even pre-1.2 were taken in two entirely different ways post 1.2 though.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Valfodr

[Kinediks]

snip

 

Take your crappy posts elsewhere. This thread has been derailed enough.

 

As a merc healer, I feel that managing heat is more difficult in the new raid. We're a 16 man guild, but we tried the new raid on 8 man story mode. Your "rotation" has changed, and the sooner you adapt to this, the better off you are. That being said, I'm worried about healing 16 man hard mode when 1.2 hits live. I definitely cannot heal like i used to. Hitting SCG and doing a HS>RS>HS>RS>HS>RS will over heat you if you don't weave in rapid shots. Rapid shots feels slightly stronger on the PTS, which is good because you'll be using it A LOT. The main problem? You can't shoot yourself...and its incredibly painful to listen to.

 

Also they're still tuning the raid difficulties, and I don't think story mode will be released at its current difficulty. In fact the first fight felt much easier this week after some "tuning". We 7 manned it and brought along a few new people.

[Kinediks]

RuQu have you healed Danova as a combat medic/bodyguard? Have you done any warzones? I haven't tried any warzones yet, but I'm not looking forward to them. Having to use Rapid Shots every so often will make me a bigger target in WZs than I already am

[RuQu]

RuQu have you healed Danova as a combat medic/bodyguard? Have you done any warzones? I haven't tried any warzones yet, but I'm not looking forward to them. Having to use Rapid Shots every so often will make me a bigger target in WZs than I already am

 

No, my character didn't get copied to PTS. I only have so much time in my day to devote to this game, and leveling from 1-50 isn't the best use of my time. If they let us use premade 50s, I'd have been all over that and testing like crazy, but they didn't.

 

Since you are running content on PTS, I'd appreciate it if you can get a Sage and Scoundrel to run the test in the spoiler tags with you and get me the logs. You can email them to ruqu.swtor AT gmail DOT com.

 

I'd also be appreciative of any logs from KP, and Jarg and Sorno in particular, on the hardest level of content your guild currently runs on Live.

 

 

I'm still looking for the logs of the following tests by each class from the PTS if anyone can provide them for me.

 

Go to the Tattoine Open PvP area.

Have your pets attack each other.

Start your log and do your max sustained healing rotation for ~5 minutes.

Repeat with a "max burst rotation" for as long as it takes to burnout.

 

"Max Burst" should be done with all cooldowns available. Scoundrel should start with full UH stacks, Commando should start with 30 CSC stacks. Heal as hard as you can, blowing all cooldowns, until you are completely out of resources. Assume that there is no time for a weak HS or DS cast from Commando/Scoundrel. It is Sage's call if he wants to use NS on proc, but if so he doesn't have the extra spare GCD to heal himself or his pretend target dies. Of course, I'm not even sure if HT is in Sage burst rotation anyway. Scoundrel should do burst twice, once with heavy Kolto Pack usage, once without.

 

For "Max Sustained", start as you would any boss fight.

Commando:

All cooldowns available, 30 stacks of CSC, etc. Everyone should heal as hard as they can without crippling their regen, which includes bursting down when Recharge Cells / Coolhead is available (during SCC for max effect for Commando, of course). For this test, I'd like it if you could do it twice, once keeping TP on the pet at all times, once only pre-casting it at the start but never refreshing.

 

Scoundrel:

For his sustained rotation, see if he can do it twice. Once using Emergency Medpac for all of his UH consumption, and another where he uses Kolto Pack whenever he hits 3 UH and can afford it Energy-wise, even if it means he has to slip in a clipped Diagnostic Scan. Use his best judgment as an experienced Scoundrel to try and optimize that.

 

Sage:

All cooldowns available at start. No variants I can think of.

 

Every fight would be a separate log. Commando: 1 burst, 2 sustained. Scoundrel: 2 burst, 2 sustained. Sage: 1 burst, 1 sustained.

 

Should take about 15 minutes total for the Scoundrel, slightly less for the others.

 

Please provide separate logs for each rotation, with a list of which file is which rotation/character. Please also provide your full stats and the item level of your gear.

 

[RuQu]

Take your crappy posts elsewhere. This thread has been derailed enough.

 

 

I actually thought the post was well-written. It was polite, and expressed a sound customer concern with the direction of this game, which is related to the topic of the never-seen underlying change.

 

Of course...now it's gone. Since posters can't delete their own posts, it means a moderator removed it, and since there wasn't any offensive language in it or anything against forum rules...that doesn't leave many options except that BW is intentionally hiding/removing criticism. That's not a good sign.

[DaxRendar]

I too am becoming very disheartened not only by all the changes but also the poor communication and transparency. A single Dev post saying "we are reviewing the changes based on feedback" or "some of the underlying changes have not yet been implemented on PTS" would have at least quelled some of the mounting frustration Healers are feeling with these changes.

 

RuQu and others have posted so many valid points, so many viable alternatives that wouldn't have crippled the playstyle or leveling experience of CM or Sage... all completely ignored.

 

As it stands, I will never play a CM in a Warzone again based on my experiences on the PTS, and am not sure I will run CM in PvE even if requested. I find myself with little motivation to log in anymore.

 

I still have a few friends that I play with who want to continue leveling characters together. If it weren't for them BioWare would be losing my subscription as well.

Edited April 7, 2012 by DaxRendar

[nakoda]

Its sad that they can's take criticism from the very people who are playing the game. Isnt that the whole reason for people testing the content on the test server?

 

As opposed to paying for 5 months of beta testing on the live server?

 

What irks me the most about the upcoming changes (and the last 5 months of the game in general) is that this game *lacks* the knowledge that ought to be pre-built into having made a game as cookie-cutter to the EQ/WoW model as SWTOR is; it seems as if BW did not do their homework and study the way that patches/buffs/balancing have affected game-play in previous MMOs that have operated on the same foundational combat system (not to mention the lack of basic in game MMO tools that they are brandishing as "improvements" in the upcoming 1.2 patch - like a movable UI or a live, in-game combat log, which I don't even recall seeing as being implemented in 1.2).

 

The more I read these forums and the more I keep my mouth shut, the more frustrated I become at how disorganized and sloppy BW appears to be at handling the development of this game.

 

Frankly, I have no hope that BW is actually cognizant of the overwhelming displeasure that this gaming community has expressed on the forums at their inability to even do something as simple as communicate with us, and I likewise have very little faith that BW is actually going to do much about it.

 

We are paying monthly subs to beta-test features that have been on the market for THIRTEEN YEARS, and that is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE. There is no counter-argument that will make me personally think otherwise. PLEASE take note that this is MY OPINION and not a 911 for the unsub whaambulance, but rather a vocal pronouncement of my extreme displeasure at the way that this community is being pandered to like children, not like fee-paying adults.

 

Like RuQu, Lileth, et al., I am all for nerfs that fix the game. I have been playing a progression raid tank since EQ. I have recently made a shift to a Sorc healer (my first caster in any mmo, ever...) and have been having a metric ***-ton of fun. I haven't touched my jugg since rolling this alt. BW seems intent on taking the fun out of playing an MMO so that they can continue to develop vanity, quality-of-life implementations that have no actual bearing on the CONTENT.

 

I've said it before, and I will say it again... SWTOR is the best *single*player MMO I have ever played. . .but that is NOT good enough. We don't pay monthly subs to play single-player console games; BW, please stop dicking around with single-player improvements and actually take some time to show that you actually are trying to make a solid MULTIPLAYER experience that, to this date, is seriously lacking in your MULTIPLAYER game.

 

edit:

 

this all comes back to the same sentiments that I expressed before Christmas in the following thread; I apologize for drumming up old material, but the point is that BW made no acknowledgement then of any intrinsic problems in their design methods then, and it is doubtful they will make acknowledgments now:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=53001

 

edit1: the post that I quoted has apparently been removed. It must have been the wrong kind of criticism.

 

edit2: I was right: see post below....

Edited April 8, 2012 by nakoda

[Noviru]

Hello everyone,

 

We recently had to remove or edit a number of posts, and would like to take a moment to explain why.

 

We always appreciate feedback and questions regarding moderation - it helps us know where we can improve and what we're already doing right. We want the forums to be a constructive and safe place for all of our community to participate in and your feedback is crucial to that. However we do ask that you send it to us directly, since we ask that threads posted in the Public Test Server forum should stay focused on Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ and testing game content.

 

We highly encourage you to send us an email with your questions, concerns, or feedback regarding moderation policy. Our email address is: CommunitySupport@swtor.com.

 

This will put you in touch with one of our Community Coordinators who would be happy to address any of your thoughts or concerns one-on-one.

 

Thank you.

[Keta]

BW's lack of communication is downright deplorable.

 

It's not worse than the vast majority of mmo's that have ever existed. That's not to say that it's good.

[Hoodwinked]

. many of us have been playing MMOs since EQ; BW's lack of communication is downright deplorable.

 

You would think that given that many of us have been playing these types of games longer than they have been in business for that would actually listen to what we have to say. Its sad that a company that is supposed to be this good turns a deaf ear to the very people paying their bills.

 

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, some of the features that are in development and currently buggy are features that have been in games for years now. One would think, given they brought on board people from other games, that these features would, 1) have been in at launch, 2) would actually be working. This game was in development for many years, one would think they would have watched and learned what other games did right and incorporated those features into their game.

[Masturomenos]

Guys BW cant even provide a contrilled enviroment for us to test changes. They are using numbers pulled from raids or wz where no one is on equal terms. The reason to have a ptr is so that u can control the peple that test it by making sure they are equal level and in equal gear. To make changes by using data that say u have 8 people in a WZ all in different levels of gear is in itself broken.

 

The changes are brokn becaue the tests used to make the changes are broken. I mean u dont need math or a ptr to tell someone that a guy in BiS is going to seem OP to a guy in greens. The ptr is based on those principles without everyone on equal gear levels no test can result in a correct change. Until they fix their tests they cant fix their results. Its bad design all around. Thats why any data from live that isnt taken from people playing in the same gear levels will never give the real results.

 

I mean they are just doing things without even knowing why to do it since their testing is broken. Thegame will be seriously broken in 1.2. Even them changing the stats they had us test for the entire ptr back a couple days befre a patch on a holiay weekend proves they are wrong because they cant even understand the changes they have made.

 

Thats why they are only copying over guilds doing the hardest content they know thats the closest they can get to equal gear levels in a raidto have a controlled test. then to balance other parts of the game around that are just the worst way to do anything in a game based on numbers. BW cant even make a test to answer why they made a change and thats why we dont have any answers or ever will.

 

There is an angry community that will be furious in 1.2 and anyone who thinks they will be ok with the changes will end up being the ones most disappointed.

 

People without the correct info in the question you need an answer for u will never have a correct answer. BW needs to find a way to fix what they do before they fix what they have made.

[warultima]

Especially when most lucky players that got copied are PvE centric. Arent we talking/test about ranked warzones here? I mean its PvP right? Then why exclude those who PvP for their life in swtor from the beta test copy? You know those who with full BM moded to optimization.

 

Most PTR test are done by people in "full rakata" or "fully cleared NMM ABC". Changing PvP around based on players that really dont give a crap about PvP isnt real relevant test. Why? because PvEers dont have to rely on PvP to advance their gear (and pve gears are generally better stat-wise) where many pure PvPers cant get gear via raiding depending on PvP to "feel their progression".

 

Stop ignoring PvPers if you want to balance classes around PvP we all know pve balance is wayyyyyyyyyy easier to achieve than PvP because pve is purely linear scripted environment where in PvP you are fighting against other human beings and every one of them is different AND the good human beings will also work as group and applies different tactics depending on situation where AI controlled mobs can never achieve.

Edited April 8, 2012 by warultima

[nakoda]

You would think that given that many of us have been playing these types of games longer than they have been in business for that would actually listen to what we have to say. Its sad that a company that is supposed to be this good turns a deaf ear to the very people paying their bills.

 

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, some of the features that are in development and currently buggy are features that have been in games for years now. One would think, given they brought on board people from other games, that these features would, 1) have been in at launch, 2) would actually be working. This game was in development for many years, one would think they would have watched and learned what other games did right and incorporated those features into their game.

 

one hundred million dollars and thirteen years of development (the genre as a whole) does not a combat log make, apparently.

[Xaearth]

I'll try this once more for the sake of sane discussion.

 

Anyone on the dev team care to elaborate, maybe even just a hint, where these background changes are that Georg Zoeller keeps touting?

 

Silence is only going to enforce the spreading opinion that your lead combat designer is a bold faced liar.

 

Yes, I said it.

I've tried to imply that he was mistaken.

I've tried to imply that maybe he's referencing a later build than what we're seeing on the PTS.

I've tried to imply that some bug FUBARed the current build on PTS and masks any possible underlying changes.

 

Apparently someone doesn't like those implications, so you leave us with only one option.

 

Not only is your silence loud and clear, the only response anyone at BioWare has bothered to give is deafening.

Or should I say muting.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Xaearth

[oredith]

Hello everyone,

<snip>

Thank you.

 

well, at least we know someone's reading this thread. my feeling is nothing will change from it though.

[Solthar]

I'll try this once more for the sake of sane discussion.

 

Anyone on the dev team care to elaborate, maybe even just a hint, where these background changes are that Georg Zoeller keeps touting?

 

Silence is only going to enforce the spreading opinion that your lead combat designer is a bold faced liar.

 

Yes, I said it.

I've tried to imply that he was mistaken.

I've tried to imply that maybe he's referencing a later build than what we're seeing on the PTS.

I've tried to imply that some bug FUBARed the current build on PTS and masks any possible underlying changes.

 

Apparently someone doesn't like those implications, so you leave us with only one option.

 

Not only is your silence loud and clear, the only response anyone at BioWare has bothered to give is deafening.

Or should I say muting.

 

 

I don't know.

 

This IS the company that did the Mass Effect Three endings. You know - the one that your choices were supposed to matter, where everything was supposed to be explained, etcetera. To me this shows a proven disregard for the players perspective.

 

IMO, the changes are probably similar to ME3's R G B endings in that no matter what you choose, the difference is merely cosmetic.

[oredith]

forum wipe coming soon.

 

this thread will be swept under the rug, and forgotten (at least the devs hope, probably).

 

i wonder if we'll get some sort of response before the PTS forum's wiped.

[RuQu]

forum wipe coming soon.

 

this thread will be swept under the rug, and forgotten (at least the devs hope, probably).

 

i wonder if we'll get some sort of response before the PTS forum's wiped.

 

Do they wipe the PTS forum or archive it?

 

I think there is value in keeping some of these threads alive for post-patch comparison. Be nice to see where we were wrong and where we were right. Help us prevent mistakes in the future, or lend credence to our arguments on future PTS builds.

[oredith]

i think it's a wipe? regardless, probably good idea to edit->copy->paste into a word doc or something..

[Xaearth]

Do they wipe the PTS forum or archive it?

 

I think there is value in keeping some of these threads alive for post-patch comparison. Be nice to see where we were wrong and where we were right. Help us prevent mistakes in the future, or lend credence to our arguments on future PTS builds.

 

They say they're archived, but the threads are archived to a location that we don't have access to, so, for all intents and purposes it is a wipe.

[RuQu]

They say they're archived, but the threads are archived to a location that we don't have access to, so, for all intents and purposes it is a wipe.

 

Well, that's useful.

 

Unrelated, I finally dug out the stat budget changes and put them on the front page. Short version:

 

Lileth's Rakata level gear saw the following changes:

Alacrity/Surge budget unchanged.

Power/Crit budget lost 17 points.

Aim lost 11 points.

 

So this is the one "underlying change" we have seen, and it was also a nerf, probably to try and control stat inflation for the new gear at the expense of non-cutting edge players.

[Kunari]

That's the same as on Live then.

 

It would be really nice if GZ would comment on what these "under-the-hood" changes are, because there is absolutely no sign of any of them.

 

 

Agreed, I don't see any changes.

[Kunari]

RuQu have you healed Danova as a combat medic/bodyguard? Have you done any warzones? I haven't tried any warzones yet, but I'm not looking forward to them. Having to use Rapid Shots every so often will make me a bigger target in WZs than I already am

 

I'll trade you your healing Rapid Shots animation for the Commando's HUGE GREEN "Come Kill Me Please" animation.

[Masturomenos]

I'll trade you your healing Rapid Shots animation for the Commando's HUGE GREEN "Come Kill Me Please" animation.

 

O4/10 patch notes BH healers now auto mark themselves when entering a WZ with crosshairs.

[Shoogli]

Hey ! I've read most of the thread and I find it extremely interresting.

 

Maybe I missed something but I was wondering if those elusive underlying changes could instead be on the "monster" side (bosses in ops I mean) and not the player ? Like maybe they changed their armors, their defenses or some formula curves about them, or added mechanics like it used to exist in wow with all the parry/glancing hit things ?

 

See what I mean ?

I don't want to come as off-topic so if I said anything silly just don't shoot !