Healer Testing and the Search for "Underlying Changes"

[Masturomenos]

50 credits says more than 90% of the players complaining haven't bothered with actually testing the class. They have read something somewhere that the sky is falling and are running around with chicken little.

 

Good or bad changes are gonna happen. If those changes make it so no one can complete the content BW will be able to SEE this and can adjust accordingly.

 

Seems everyone just wants to ASSUME the worst, but the fact is that people ARE clearing things on the PTS. INCLUDING the new bosses. Ive read threads from the guilds doing it. If they can do it why do you assume you wont be able to? Are you admitting that you are not as skilled of a played as them? If so perhaps you should think about that...

 

It only takes 1 person to yell the sky is falling before all the sheep start running for their lives with nothing to back the claim up.

 

So if you dont trust the players who pay to play the game even thou they have never done anything wrong to you or you cant listen to the people on the ptr telling you its a problem but somehow the people taking your money who have not done anything in multiple games but break them and are lying to your face a couple posts above your own are the ones you listen too.

 

This whole thread is based on data from player testing with direct numbers and proof. Can you show me where the developers answered back proving anything was wrong?

 

No comunication, no proof, no adjustments and an outright lie to the playrbase and thats just on one thread not counting the 1000's of others. Forums the devs lie to your screen and guild sumit they lie to your face next thing is im waiting for a phone cal from them to tell me there is underlying changes or were testing internally atleast they could scceed at onething then by lieing to me everyway possible (and of course they never would succeed since theyd forget sign language and, brail) like always half assing it.

[Kunari]

Fleet should be fine. Commendation vendors and artifice/cybertech profession trainers should have at least one of each if they added them.

 

I did not see any "Power/Crit" nor "Alacrity/Surge" mods.

 

and Alacrity/Surge mods/enhancements it was "Crit/Surge" or "Power/Surge" or "Alacrity/Power" mods.

[RuQu]

I did not see any "Power/Crit" nor "Alacrity/Surge" mods.

 

and Alacrity/Surge mods/enhancements it was "Crit/Surge" or "Power/Surge" or "Alacrity/Power" mods.

 

That's the same as on Live then.

 

It would be really nice if GZ would comment on what these "under-the-hood" changes are, because there is absolutely no sign of any of them.

[Wynn]

That's the same as on Live then.

 

It would be really nice if GZ would comment on what these "under-the-hood" changes are, because there is absolutely no sign of any of them.

 

It's going to be something dumb like the lower the health on raid bosses, anything else major PTR healers would have found something by now.

 

We really really need to be able to do level 50 copy to PTR over just the small invited to PTR in 1.3.

[RuQu]

It's going to be something dumb like the lower the health on raid bosses, anything else major PTR healers would have found something by now.

 

We really really need to be able to do level 50 copy to PTR over just the small invited to PTR in 1.3.

 

That would be really sad, considering GZ's quote:

 

Let me also say that there's significant under the hood changes to stats, diminishing returns, itemization stat budget, a new tier of gear with different stats and more diverse mods, changes to PvE and PvP math, etc.

 

That means that it is not possible to assess impact of class changes in regards to power gain or loss from the patch notes alone, people will have to go on PTS and actually play to get the full picture.

 

Which we highly encourage you to do!

 

Let's break it down a little.

 

 

That means that it is not possible to assess impact of class changes in regards to power gain or loss from the patch notes alone, people will have to go on PTS and actually play to get the full picture.

 

Which we highly encourage you to do!

 

We did...

 

 

changes to stats, diminishing returns

 

Not sure what other stat changes are possible besides DR and the scaling. No change was found for either of those for any stat except Expertise.

 

itemization stat budget

 

This did change...but the change to current gear was actually a nerf. (Note to self, dig out those results from the middle of this thread and put them on in the OP.)

 

a new tier of gear with different stats

 

While this is true, wasn't it going to be true even without the nerfs? New content, new gear is a pretty standard MMO model. New gear from the new raids also does nothing to help the fresh 50s who just got nerfed.

 

more diverse mods

 

As of Kunari's recent check of the Fleet vendors, there is no sign of any new diverse mods. Perhaps they exist on Campaign gear, but, again, how does that offset the changes for fresh 50s and those in pre-Campaign gear?

 

 

changes to PvE and PvP math, etc.

 

No one knows what this means. Those things we could think of, we have tested and found no change.

 

All of the things clearly mentioned in GZ's post have been tested. The vague changes have been tested as far as we can while guessing at what they mean.

 

So the question is still outstanding for the Devs: What, specifically, are these under-the-hood changes, and what are the design intentions for them in context of the rest of the Patch Notes?

[Aaoogaa]

If that is true, they would likely not want to come out and admit it, as it might drive healers away from the game.

 

They are doing a great job of that without admiting anything.

[ragamer]

is anyone else getting a "Gaute Godager"vibe from George Zeller right now?

 

There is a world of a difference between the 2... Gaute was plainly lying about non existant features on AoC.

 

GZ is been trolled by angry Sages/Commandos that aren't looking at the right changes...

 

...IMO he should have saved a lot of troubles by saying simply:

 

"We are putting all healers at the capabilities of the Scoundrel"

 

 

Those are the "under the hood" changes... The probem is that the "hood" is the Scoundrel one, something none of the whiners will ever bother to check... Because BOTH nerfed classes implicitely recognize they didn't have to pay even a fraction of the attention to resource management a Scoundrel have to.

 

 

A script "swap Sage/Commando to Scoundrel" applied on PTS copy would "fix" most complains... You can bet gold on that .

[Redmarx]

It would be really nice if GZ would comment on what these "under-the-hood" changes are, because there is absolutely no sign of any of them.

 

There were and are none.

 

Georg Zoeller lied.

 

He was basically just making up generalities to quell the complaints about the awful 1.2 balance changes.

[RuQu]

There is a world of a difference between the 2... Gaute was plainly lying about non existant features on AoC.

 

GZ is been trolled by angry Sages/Commandos that aren't looking at the right changes...

 

...IMO he should have saved a lot of troubles by saying simply:

 

"We are putting all healers at the capabilities of the Scoundrel"

 

You are basing this on what? Nothing but speculation, I presume?

 

1) All 3 were at nearly the same level single target in 1.1.5, if you exclude the Sage double-Conveyance exploit. This is supported by all the evidence we currently have access to, namely anecdotes, "napkin-math" and sims. Reducing the other two from a starting point of near-parity can only hurt balance.

 

2) Scoundrels lacked the burst healing of the other classes. This is a clear absence of a key part of the toolkit, and the only reasonable answer is to give them some proper burst tools. To instead take such an important tool from the other two classes is so wrong and such bad design, I have a hard time not calling it outright stupid. There really isn't another way to describe that decision unless they publish some revolutionary new healing design plan.

 

3) Scoundrels were lower in AoE...and they still are.

 

So it looks like the changes don't support your claim.

 

A script "swap Sage/Commando to Scoundrel" applied on PTS copy would "fix" most complains... You can bet gold on that .

 

I think the better solution to what you are driving at is to have pre-made 50s on the PTS that people can experiment with. Then someone like me could do tests and runs with all 3 classes to get a feel for the difference in balance. Simply replacing my Commando with a Scoundrel wouldn't tell me anything about the Commando changes.

 

Those are the "under the hood" changes... The probem is that the "hood" is the Scoundrel one, something none of the whiners will ever bother to check... Because BOTH nerfed classes implicitely recognize they didn't have to pay even a fraction of the attention to resource management a Scoundrel have to.

 

So I notice you are more than happy to call anyone who disagrees a whiner, and you act as though you pointed out some obvious test we chose to ignore....but do you realize that you never once mentioned anything remotely testable?

 

So far only one of the tests has been class specific, which was the Kolto Bomb smart healing test. Presumably if it was smart healing, Kolto Cloud would be as well. All of the other tests were looking at general mechanics.

 

If you think there is a test that wasn't done, please, suggest it. Apparently we missed some obvious ones to you, so obvious they didn't need to actually be said, but I can't think of what they must be.

[signahead]

There is a world of a difference between the 2... Gaute was plainly lying about non existant features on AoC.

 

GZ is been trolled by angry Sages/Commandos that aren't looking at the right changes...

 

.

 

I agree that the player community has not been especially kind to Mr. Zoeller, but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory either. Whether they can be justified by "under the hood" changes or not, many of his claims appear to be misleading. Others are, as RuQu has shown, demonstrably untrue.

 

That's dangerous ground for a spokesperson. That damage to his credibility is not easily repaired. While his claims aren't as outrageous as Gaute's, they're still ill-advised and they do very little to help his relationship with the game's players.

[Xaearth]

On a sort-of related note, is anyone else getting a "Gaute Godager"vibe from George Zeller right now? His relationship with the SWTOR player-base (which, I admit, is not a particularly polite group of users) is getting strained for the silliest of reasons. I'd like to see more resilience and reliability from the game's developers.

 

I take offense at this comment.

 

The playerbase which GZ has been consistently trolling was one of the most polite, rational, and well-spoken groups I've seen in any MMO to date.

 

It wasn't until GZ repeatedly made an *** out of himself that we took the "Well F*** you too" attitude.

 

PS: I really need to get back into trolling people's posts with quotes from good old GZ, it seems people need constant reminders.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Xaearth

[signahead]

I take offense at this comment.

 

The playerbase which GZ has been consistently trolling was one of the most polite, rational, and well-spoken groups I've seen in any MMO to date.

 

It wasn't until GZ repeatedly made an *** out of himself that we took the "Well F*** you too" attitude.

 

PS: I really need to get back into trolling people's posts with quotes from good old GZ, it seems people need constant reminders.

 

I think this depends greatly on your perspective. Most of my experience comes from the PvP side of things, where discussions have been littered with personal attacks, threats, and occasional full-throated tantrums. Broadly speaking (there are, of course some outstanding and inspiring exceptions) I'm not sure that the PvP forums (or discussions of SWTOR PvP in general) have ever been polite, well-spoken, or rational.

 

In that respect, the healing forum has been outstanding. The discussions and the sense of community are great. I wish I had discovered it sooner. If you're judging the discussion of the upcoming patch based this group, then your description is very accurate. And I apologize for my rash generalization.

Edited April 6, 2012 by signahead

[RuQu]

I think this depends greatly on your perspective. Most of my experience comes from the PvP side of things, where discussions have been littered with personal attacks, threats, and occasional full-throated tantrums. Broadly speaking (there are, of course some outstanding and inspiring exceptions) I'm not sure that the PvP forums (or discussions of SWTOR PvP in general) have ever been polite, well-spoken, or rational.

 

In that respect, the healing forum has been outstanding. The discussions and the sense of community are great. I wish I had discovered it sooner. If you're judging the discussion of the upcoming patch based this group, then your description is very accurate. And I apologize for my rash generalization.

 

I think part of the healer discontent at the moment comes from the difference you speak of.

 

Look at the behavior of the PvP forum.

 

Look at the behavior of the Healer forum.

 

Now look at the coming changes. Which community is being listened to? Which is being not only ignored, but is receiving changes that are both harmful and completely out of touch with how we view the state of the game?

 

If I was one of the Devs, I would be ashamed of how we interact with the community and set our priorities.

[Xaearth]

Look at tanking, it is just as bad if not worse in terms of interesting mechanics.

 

Honestly, I'm thinking that they should look at how Blizzard is doing more and more "healing via dps" mechanics in their classes, and do away with dedicated healers in this game altogether.

 

...

 

"Healers" would be DPS with some means of applying healing to the group around them, either passively (like Sentinel) or within their DPS rotation (3 current healers).

 

But there's the rub. One of the healers, by nature of its design, can not do both.

 

If Operatives/Scoundrels could reliably produce any meaningful healing when in melee range of an enemy, while still doing any meaningful damage to said enemy and reliably survive being within melee range of that enemy, there will be a massive ****storm of QQ from the PvP crowd.

 

Currently, the prohibitive factor is the utter lack of survivability outside of stealth - which completely nullifies Op/Scoundrel healing - combined with reliance on a secondary resource gated by a 6s CD (shiv/blaster), ~1.7-2s cast (KI/UM), or 6s ICD (KP/SRM proc) all on top of an already tight resource system that can barely (in a best case scenario) put out the sustained damage comparable to other DPS classes without bothering with any extra ability usage for some group support.

 

Essentially, DPS Op/Scoundrels can't heal in PvP because they don't have the resources or the opportunity to, and healer Op/Scoundrels can't DPS in PvP because they don't have the resources or the survivability to stabbity-stabbity.

 

Now, while we might not necessarily need extra survivability to be melee-range in PvE, our resource usage and healing will need to be completely reworked to make it viable in a melee-healing situation... which would significantly reduce the inefficiency of DPS Op/Scoundrel healing.

 

Not to mention that's all assuming the devs have any intention of reworking Op/Scoundrel healing, while the PTS remains pretty damning evidence to the contrary.

[Xaearth]

I think this depends greatly on your perspective. Most of my experience comes from the PvP side of things, where discussions have been littered with personal attacks, threats, and occasional full-throated tantrums. Broadly speaking (there are, of course some outstanding and inspiring exceptions) I'm not sure that the PvP forums (or discussions of SWTOR PvP in general) have ever been polite, well-spoken, or rational.

 

In that respect, the healing forum has been outstanding. The discussions and the sense of community are great. I wish I had discovered it sooner. If you're judging the discussion of the upcoming patch based this group, then your description is very accurate. And I apologize for my rash generalization.

 

That's the thing though...

 

GZ's troll posts aren't replying to the PvP forum threads, they're replies in the Healer class forum and Operative/Scoundrel class forums.

 

(At least the classic ones are, have to say I haven't been keeping up as much for the last few weeks. Nearing 2 months without logging into the game, keep checking in to make sure I can slip in and pick up my Marauder's cyan color crystals before 1.2 hits live.)

[RuQu]

But there's the rub. One of the healers, by nature of its design, can not do both.

 

If Operatives/Scoundrels could reliably produce any meaningful healing when in melee range of an enemy, while still doing any meaningful damage to said enemy and reliably survive being within melee range of that enemy, there will be a massive ****storm of QQ from the PvP crowd.

 

Currently, the prohibitive factor is the utter lack of survivability outside of stealth - which completely nullifies Op/Scoundrel healing - combined with reliance on a secondary resource gated by a 6s CD (shiv/blaster), ~1.7-2s cast (KI/UM), or 6s ICD (KP/SRM proc) all on top of an already tight resource system that can barely (in a best case scenario) put out the sustained damage comparable to other DPS classes without bothering with any extra ability usage for some group support.

 

Essentially, DPS Op/Scoundrels can't heal in PvP because they don't have the resources or the opportunity to, and healer Op/Scoundrels can't DPS in PvP because they don't have the resources or the survivability to stabbity-stabbity.

 

Now, while we might not necessarily need extra survivability to be melee-range in PvE, our resource usage and healing will need to be completely reworked to make it viable in a melee-healing situation... which would significantly reduce the inefficiency of DPS Op/Scoundrel healing.

 

Not to mention that's all assuming the devs have any intention of reworking Op/Scoundrel healing, while the PTS remains pretty damning evidence to the contrary.

 

To be fair, I think its worth noting that that suggestion was me just spit-balling options for a Dev team who clearly dislike healers and have no idea how to design or balance healing. It would shift healing to be a % of DPS done, or some similar easy metric for them to control, since they like their metrics so much, and focus the gameplay towards the Devs strengths.

 

As for PvP, it seems clear they are actively making PvP healing obsolete. With dual-spec coming, there is no reason to run a healer in PvP anyway. Healing scales slower than DPS in PvE as it is (1 Power = 0.23 bonus damage, but 0.17 bonus healing), and Expertise continues that trend, with Damage Done growing faster than Damage Reduction which scales faster than Healing Done. Combine that with the Trauma Debuff, uncleansable Sent/Mara healing debuff, and the nerfs to healer sustainability and it is clear they don't want people to heal in PvP at all.

 

If they were to go the route I suggested, the healer/dps hybrids would produce less DPS than a pure DPS player, and would heal those around them for a reasonable rate as a % of DPS done. The balance would then be a matter of the DPS of the two classes, and exactly what that % was in PvP. If you do 10 DPS, and I do 5 DPS and 5 HPS, and we both have 20 HP, in 1 second we would both do an effective 5 DPS to the other, and in 4 seconds we would both die at the same time.

[Menthro]

As a raiding tank, I am very afraid of the healer changes coming in 1.2, can someone please allay my fears and show me that I am being scared over nothing?

[RuQu]

As a raiding tank, I am very afraid of the healer changes coming in 1.2, can someone please allay my fears and show me that I am being scared over nothing?

 

People are clearing new content on PTS. I know a Sage/Scoundrel team is posting reports and impressions. They are working on HM at the moment.

 

I also know (Live) NMM farming Mercs have reported that they can't clear NMM KP on PTS.

 

So take that for what you will.

[oredith]

As a raiding tank, I am very afraid of the healer changes coming in 1.2, can someone please allay my fears and show me that I am being scared over nothing?

my friends (who are in the gaming industry) and i were joking around about a conspiracy theory:

 

blizzard is secretly buying out Bioware, that's why Bioware is actively trying to destroy ToR, in order to drive players back to WoW, since it appears so much better in comparison.

 

joking aside, the healer changes are pretty terrible. your healers will be quitting, but they won't necessarily be quitting because the content is too hard. they'll do what's necessary to heal through it, because that's what we healers do.

 

no, the healers will be quitting because after they struggle to pump out every bit of the nerfed healing, in order to continue raid progression, they're going to come to the realization (if they haven't already, like most of us here), that the healing nerf is much more than just a throughput nerf. It is, in fact, an enjoyment nerf (unless you happen to be a sadist).

 

no one will be enjoying the role of healers anymore, and THAT is really what's killing it.

[signahead]

I think part of the healer discontent at the moment comes from the difference you speak of.

 

Look at the behavior of the PvP forum.

 

Look at the behavior of the Healer forum.

 

Now look at the coming changes. Which community is being listened to? Which is being not only ignored, but is receiving changes that are both harmful and completely out of touch with how we view the state of the game?

 

If I was one of the Devs, I would be ashamed of how we interact with the community and set our priorities.

 

I think you're right.

 

But the nature of these changes confuses me. Aside from a few highly specific situations, I don't think that the 1.2 changes will affect my commando's PvP performance. PvE on the other hand? I'm gonna feel the effects in PvE.

 

To me, and I think to a lot of players, it does look like the development team let their decisions be influenced by the complaints of a few members of the PvP community. But then they made changes that mostly affect PvE. It's wond'rous strange. And I can understand why healers are frustrated.

[RuQu]

I think you're right.

 

But the nature of these changes confuses me. Aside from a few highly specific situations, I don't think that the 1.2 changes will affect my commando's PvP performance. PvE on the other hand? I'm gonna feel the effects in PvE.

 

To me, and I think to a lot of players, it does look like the development team let their decisions be influenced by the complaints of a few members of the PvP community. But then they made changes that mostly affect PvE. It's wond'rous strange. And I can understand why healers are frustrated.

 

One possible explanation: PvP DPS have no idea what makes a good PvP healer. They just cry "Nerf Healers! They are hard and that makes me sad!" So the Devs nerf healers. Nevermind that a lone healer is easy prey but a healer with a good team and coordination is extremely powerful and that this will likely remain true in 1.2 (from what I hear from PvP healers, which I am not).

[Wynn]

As a raiding tank, I am very afraid of the healer changes coming in 1.2, can someone please allay my fears and show me that I am being scared over nothing?

 

Most common healer on live is Sorc/Sage so in turn its the most healers that got copy on PTR, if you look at videos of the new flashpoint and raid bosses you see that Sorc/Sages are healing and getting the content clear. I've seen all 3 healer specs in videos do the new raid boss the two big guys

 

Pvp we won't really know how the changes will affect everything till we get the whole pvp player base playing in 1.2

Edited April 6, 2012 by Wynn

[Xaearth]

To be fair, I think its worth noting that that suggestion was me just spit-balling options for a Dev team who clearly dislike healers and have no idea how to design or balance healing. It would shift healing to be a % of DPS done, or some similar easy metric for them to control, since they like their metrics so much, and focus the gameplay towards the Devs strengths.

...

If they were to go the route I suggested, the healer/dps hybrids would produce less DPS than a pure DPS player, and would heal those around them for a reasonable rate as a % of DPS done. The balance would then be a matter of the DPS of the two classes, and exactly what that % was in PvP. If you do 10 DPS, and I do 5 DPS and 5 HPS, and we both have 20 HP, in 1 second we would both do an effective 5 DPS to the other, and in 4 seconds we would both die at the same time.

 

I'm guessing you never had the misfortune of playing WAR.

 

Playing a Grace Warrior Priest (melee healer) was living hell, and it only got worse as RvR became more and more gear reliant with increasingly inflated stat and set bonuses.

 

I finally quit WAR for good when they nerfed my new RR 50 (entry level to the final, and most unbalanced tier) grace WP into the ground on the premise that the WP spec that healed from range were too powerful. So all the cast ranged heals I wasn't specced in as melee healer spec started doing about half of what my one lone pathetic HoT did each tick.

 

"Dude, WT* hjeal me."

"I am."

"WT*, no you aren't noob."

"You see that 2 digit green number? That's my heal."

"WT*, you suck noob. L2P."

"*shrug* Well, I asked them nicely to come down off that fortress wall and let me beat on them for hjealz, but they apparently have declined the invitation."

"You gay dude."

"If that was some form of romantic advance, you may want to brush up on your dating skills."

"..."

Other person: "Dude, quit playing grab *** and heal me!"

"... I am."

"..."

"Healing you, not playing grab *** that is."

 

TL;DR:

Basing healing on a percentage of damage done is a cluster**** waiting to happen, because it directly introduces mitigation (defense, avoidance, kiting, etc) into the healing equation... and the less DPS you do compared to "pure DPS", the more it's going to show.

[RuQu]

 

TL;DR:

Basing healing on a percentage of damage done is a cluster**** waiting to happen, because it directly introduces mitigation (defense, avoidance, kiting, etc) into the healing equation... and the less DPS you do compared to "pure DPS", the more it's going to show.

 

I'm not honestly expecting them to change. I know it worked well on my Disc priest in WoW. I was more pointing out that the Devs clearly prefer DPS and design with that style in mind, and they clearly don't heal, so perhaps they should work to their strengths.

[Monterone]

my friends (who are in the gaming industry) and i were joking around about a conspiracy theory:

 

blizzard is secretly buying out Bioware, that's why Bioware is actively trying to destroy ToR, in order to drive players back to WoW, since it appears so much better in comparison.

 

joking aside, the healer changes are pretty terrible. your healers will be quitting, but they won't necessarily be quitting because the content is too hard. they'll do what's necessary to heal through it, because that's what we healers do.

 

no, the healers will be quitting because after they struggle to pump out every bit of the nerfed healing, in order to continue raid progression, they're going to come to the realization (if they haven't already, like most of us here), that the healing nerf is much more than just a throughput nerf. It is, in fact, an enjoyment nerf (unless you happen to be a sadist).

 

no one will be enjoying the role of healers anymore, and THAT is really what's killing it.

 

Very much agreed.

 

I've done some initial testing on sorc healing when I just got copied to PTS a couple of weeks ago and made up my mind at that time not to heal on my sorc any longer.

 

I felt my decision was too rash and gave it another run.

 

I can without a doubt say that I will NOT be healing as a Corruption sorc in pvp. I will not even bring forth reasons why, as they have been mentioned many times in this forum. I just hope the devs have the balls to admit they made a mistake and revert some of the changes before live, or I have to agree that we will see a tremendous decline in healers -- probably to the point where it will make it difficult for others to put together solid groups, and will lead to further exodus.

 

edit: on the other hand, Madness still plays nicely, and will probably be the ONLY spec you will see sorcerers in warzones using.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Monterone