Healer Testing and the Search for "Underlying Changes"

[oredith]

Hey ! I've read most of the thread and I find it extremely interresting.

 

Maybe I missed something but I was wondering if those elusive underlying changes could instead be on the "monster" side (bosses in ops I mean) and not the player ? Like maybe they changed their armors, their defenses or some formula curves about them, or added mechanics like it used to exist in wow with all the parry/glancing hit things ?

 

See what I mean ?

I don't want to come as off-topic so if I said anything silly just don't shoot !

while possible, we have not seen reports of that from PTS. that doesn't mean it may not exist though.

 

however, the bigger issue is that even IF those were true, it doesn't impact the healers (topic of discussion here), because healer's casts impact other players, not bosses.

[RuQu]

Hey ! I've read most of the thread and I find it extremely interresting.

 

Maybe I missed something but I was wondering if those elusive underlying changes could instead be on the "monster" side (bosses in ops I mean) and not the player ? Like maybe they changed their armors, their defenses or some formula curves about them, or added mechanics like it used to exist in wow with all the parry/glancing hit things ?

 

See what I mean ?

I don't want to come as off-topic so if I said anything silly just don't shoot !

 

While possible, this would be contrary to GZ's statement about why they nerfed healers. He specifically said that nerfing healers was easier than retuning content, which is what you are describing.

 

Then again, our tests show no sign of truth to his other statements, so it is possible he was inaccurate/incorrect there as well.

 

We have seen reports of NMM farming Merc healers not being able to heal NMM KP anymore on PTS, which suggests that the health/damage of the bosses was not tuned down.

 

So I'd say it is possible, but highly unlikely given the comments from GZ and PTS reports. Also very hard to test since we don't have 1.1.5 combat logs to compare the damage taken between Live and PTS.

[DaxRendar]

While possible, this would be contrary to GZ's statement about why they nerfed healers. He specifically said that nerfing healers was easier than retuning content, which is what you are describing.

 

Then again, our tests show no sign of truth to his other statements, so it is possible he was inaccurate/incorrect there as well.

 

We have seen reports of NMM farming Merc healers not being able to heal NMM KP anymore on PTS, which suggests that the health/damage of the bosses was not tuned down.

 

So I'd say it is possible, but highly unlikely given the comments from GZ and PTS reports. Also very hard to test since we don't have 1.1.5 combat logs to compare the damage taken between Live and PTS.

 

Thanks for the great work/effort you've put into SWTOR and analyzing 1.2 RuQu.

 

Your posts have been really informative and a pleasure to read...

 

well...

 

unless your initials are GZ in which case you are probably on an Ignore List

 

Thanks to your statistical analysis backing up the "feeling" I got playing CM on PTS (along with the horrid leveling reward nerfs to WZs) I've gone from a "Strong Supporter" to an "Ex-Subscriber" of SWTOR.

 

I know that wasn't your intent. The work you and others did, the efforts I made in posts, all looking for rational explanations or alternatives that didn't completely break the playstyle of CMs (or Sages) so we could continue to play a game we truly enjoyed...

 

Oh well, thanks again for your efforts. I wish they would've accomplished more positive in-game changes, as they definitely deserved to.

[RuQu]

Oh well, thanks again for your efforts. I wish they would've accomplished more positive in-game changes, as they definitely deserved to.

 

You're welcome. I wish they'd actually made BW take a look at their decision, or at least explain it, but it looks like it's too late for that.

 

Patch 1.2 is going Live on Thurs April 12th with no significant adjustment to the healer nerfs.

 

I have copied parts of this thread to a new topic on the Healer Forum for continuing some of the tests after the patch that we couldn't complete on the PTS.

[DaxRendar]

You're welcome. I wish they'd actually made BW take a look at their decision, or at least explain it, but it looks like it's too late for that.

 

Patch 1.2 is going Live on Thurs April 12th with no significant adjustment to the healer nerfs.

 

I have copied parts of this thread to a new topic on the Healer Forum for continuing some of the tests after the patch that we couldn't complete on the PTS.

 

Thanks I'll follow the Thread there and maybe someday consider resubbing - for now they don't deserve my money

[Aritok]

You're welcome. I wish they'd actually made BW take a look at their decision, or at least explain it, but it looks like it's too late for that.

 

Patch 1.2 is going Live on Thurs April 12th with no significant adjustment to the healer nerfs.

 

I have copied parts of this thread to a new topic on the Healer Forum for continuing some of the tests after the patch that we couldn't complete on the PTS.

 

So, all the discussion and talking was for nothing? They jsut ignore it, and go on. Well. Than they do it alone. I am not on the bus anymore when it crashes in the wall that is coming.

 

How stupid can they be....

[veyl]

So, all the discussion and talking was for nothing? They jsut ignore it, and go on. Well. Than they do it alone. I am not on the bus anymore when it crashes in the wall that is coming.

 

How stupid can they be....

 

That's mostly what they did from Beta testing feedback as well.

 

The egos of this Dev team > > > > > > actual changes that matter and the community that is pointing them out.

 

In all honesty, I wish they would wake up from their Self Absorbed comas and actually listen/communicate to the community and improve the game. Right now, they are (as what you say) steering the game towards a hard fact of truth that will lose the better portion of subscriptions when it hits the wall.

 

IF the people at Bioware can admit to the failure of Mass Effect 3 and produce new endings for their fans... They can sure as hell save this game.

[RuQu]

IF the people at Bioware can admit to the failure of Mass Effect 3 and produce new endings for their fans... They can sure as hell save this game.

 

Whoa! Back up!

 

Did they say they are doing this? Link please!

 

On-topic:

 

I (just now) finally got my new simulator running properly after some very frustrating bugs had me bashing my head against the wall. It isn't polished enough to put the source code up or make available for download yet, but once I clean it up I will, of course, make it available as I did with my old version.

 

Using a sample gear set with Columi level stats, and now using TP (my old sim did not), the following changes to Combat Medic max HPS are seen:

 

Burst: 82.7% of 1.1.5 values.

Sustained: 79.4% of 1.1.5 values.

 

This agrees with other reports we've seen of ~20% reduction in healing across the board.

[Xaearth]

Well, at least we got some kind of answer...

We know the Rakata gear changes aren't going to live and clearly were not the "underlying changes" we are looking for.

 

Hi,

 

There have been quite a few threads where you have voiced confusion regarding the end game itemization in 1.2 and I want to take the opportunity to clarify what you are going to see in the game when Game Update 1.2 goes live on Thursday.

 

One of the issues we are dealing with on the PTS Forums is that we are not only introducing changes from the current state of the game (1.1.5x), but also several changes a week. Without wiping our Forums weekly, it is inevitable that these updates cause significant confusion about what it is in the game, what is intended to be in the game, etc.

 

So, without further ado....

 

PvE

 

Tionese / Columi / Rakata Gear

 

These sets are not changing. Their stats have not changed from their pre 1.2 state and they are acquired in the same way as they were before 1.2, except for the following changes:

<New acquisition methods for old gear snipped for brevity.>

 

A temporary change on PTS that modified some existing rakata gear has not been taken into the final version 1.2 based on testing feedback.

 

"Campaign" and "Black Hole" Gear

 

Campaign gear is the new tier of PvE set items we are rolling out with the Explosive Conflict Operation. It shares the set bonus with Rakata, allowing seamless equipment upgrades and is acquired through tokens acquired in Hard Mode of Operation: Explosive Conflict and the new World Boss on Belsavis.

 

Campaign gear uses a different stat distribution from previous sets with greater variety of available stats and better base stats.

...

Black Hole Gear is similar to Campaign gear, but lacks the set bonus. It does however offer additional stat distribution options not available on Campaign gear. It also cannot be reverse engineered into appearances (although mods / earpieces, etc. can be learned).

...

It is worth noting that we are not extending the stat progression on crystals, meaning the existing +41 crystals found in 1.1.5 continue to be the top end of the crystal progression.

 

PvP

 

Centurion and Champion gear, as of 1.2, has not changed, but will no longer be available for purchase. Existing gear on characters of course stays in the game.

...

As of 1.2, Battlemaster gear features an increased budget of expertise and an update stat distribution on a small subset of items on some classes.

 

These changes to the stat distribution are a result of issues fixed with the original Battlemaster set of mods. As mentioned before, we will automatically update your Battlemaster items to the new version when you log into the game the first time after 1.2 has been deployed, provided that the items still contain their original mods. Reinserting these mods into the existing gear will suffice for this purpose.

...

All in all, PvP gear in 1.2 features a much stronger focus on Expertise in itemization and the diminishing returns cap for this stat has been modified to account for that change.

-- Georg

 

I think I pretty much snipped everything that didn't refer to stat changes (or a lack thereof), gonna add this to the non-PTS thread if it looks good.

 

Edit: That said, this would be the first GZ quote added to that thread that is edited (other than removing the names of those he's replying to for their privacy).

 

The editing is harmless enough, mostly means of acquisition, changes to make endgame armoring mods removable, ability to learn and craft them, and the like, but *shrug*.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Xaearth

[RuQu]

The full version is crazy long. I'd suggest putting it in spoiler tags but leaving it unedited, for integrity's sake, though I do think those edits were harmless.

[Xaearth]

The full version is crazy long. I'd suggest putting it in spoiler tags but leaving it unedited, for integrity's sake, though I do think those edits were harmless.

 

Aha! Spoiler tags! Genius!

/doh

 

You think I should spoiler all the quotes (or at least the longer/multiple-quotes-to-a-slightly relevant-thread) just for ease of use?

 

I could even put little blurbs before the spoiler tags that summarize the content of the spoiler'd quotes.

 

I will definitely bold + underline the relevant parts of this one (in spoiler'd full length) though.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Xaearth

[RuQu]

Aha! Spoiler tags! Genius!

/doh

 

You think I should spoiler all the quotes (or at least the longer/multiple-quotes-to-a-slightly relevant-thread) just for ease of use?

 

I could even put little blurbs before the spoiler tags that summarize the content of the spoiler'd quotes.

 

I will definitely bold + underline the relevant parts of this one (in spoiler'd full length) though.

 

It wouldn't hurt and would clean it up...

[dmanlong]

So, all the discussion and talking was for nothing? They jsut ignore it, and go on. Well. Than they do it alone. I am not on the bus anymore when it crashes in the wall that is coming.

 

How stupid can they be....

 

If you believe that this forum exists as a platform for you to make changes to the game then you are grossly mi-informed. These are community forums and they exist for players to discuss the game - nothing more.

 

Again, Bio-ware does their testing in house with paid testers who have access to all data in real time. While they do read these forums, it hardly makes much of a difference to the design of the game. Do you think all this information led to Agent buffs. They would have happened regardless. There are a few legitimate sources of information here in a sea of whining 14 -year olds. The forums exist to give you a place to vent.

 

Direct Quote of James Ohen:

 

"The fact is, there were many people who weren’t having fun, even though there were a lot of people who were having fun. Of course, you never hear from the people who are having fun, because they are in the game having fun!"

 

This statement is an example of how the developers feel - and rightly so. The forums do not represent the mindset of the community. It is only the angry people who post here - mostly*

[Senefera]

Again, Bio-ware does their testing in house with paid testers who have access to all data in real time. While they do read these forums, it hardly makes much of a difference to the design of the game. Do you think all this information led to Agent buffs. They would have happened regardless. There are a few legitimate sources of information here in a sea of whining 14 -year olds. The forums exist to give you a place to vent.

 

You'd be surprised to know that forums are very important for a online games welfare and yes, forum input is taking under consideration when important changes are being made. Maybe not in the way the forumites might want, but still, taken under consideration.

Buffs and nerfs are part of MMO circle of life, and it is always a bit overdone on purpose. This will herd fotm players into rolling a new class and thus keep their subs flowing.

 

Problem here is that I am sick of this fotm money money money approach to MMOs, and I bet you everything I own (which isn't much tbh) that devs are too. But they're not the ones pulling the strings; EA is.

 

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if they were being honest when they said they where happy with where all the classes where at, but had some minor tweaking and bug fixing to do. Then mr Suit waltz in and go "AHEM. Too many Sorcs and Sages, and no we DO NOT CARE that it is the only caster class, hence attracting so many players who enjoy playstyle of Priest, Mage or Warlock in some other game. Make 'em reroll one way or the other."

 

*tinfoil hat*

[warultima]

I have both sorc and marauder I am in good shape as long as I main switch to my marauder (guild approved already) but I am very sick and tired of the way BW handles their updates (extremely slow and inefficient) and then it completely destroys a playstyle (not nerfing, destroying) the patch that introduces Ranked WZ that requires an entire change of a playstyle is extremely stupid and inconsiderable.

 

I will be ok if the changes were

1.1.1 Double Dipping Fixed.

1.1.2 Sorc burst healing still too strong, Force Bending buff now only reduce casting time of DI by 0.5 second to make it equal to other classes.

1.1.3 Sorcs aoe dps is too high, 20% wrath bonus damage no longer applies to chain lightning, increased base damage of lightning strike to be more inline as other dps classes damage.

1.1.4 Sorcs aoe dps is still too high, CL cannot longer be cast with wrath proc, 31 lightning ultimate is now instant cast to make up its low damage compare to other classes.

1.1.5 Sorc healing sustainability is too high, changed force surge to have an internal cd of 20 seconds.

 

and so on...

 

Not slap everything nerf all together with none of the "should be changed skills" changed or rebalanced right when everything will start to "matter".

 

Considering Tera and Secret World rightnow. 20 days left on sub to test out 1.2.

[Wulalowe]

I don't know if this was mentioned as I was just skimming past the replies but i've noticed that with gear and buffs, the internal % increase to abilities gets totally out of whack. For instance the 10% to periodic effects from medical therapy only gives you the 10% if you are naked. As soon as you start adding gear that 10% becomes about 4%. I'm thinking the same thing is happening to the 10% buff to RN and if you did it naked you you probably see the 10% they say.

 

Horrible coding is all i can think.

[Masturomenos]

Do they wipe the PTS forum or archive it?

 

I think there is value in keeping some of these threads alive for post-patch comparison. Be nice to see where we were wrong and where we were right. Help us prevent mistakes in the future, or lend credence to our arguments on future PTS builds.

 

If there is no history then it wont repeat itself. Bioware fixes work differently Ruqu dont u know that. Lol.

[Masturomenos]

Whoa! Back up!

 

Did they say they are doing this? Link please!

 

On-topic:

 

I (just now) finally got my new simulator running properly after some very frustrating bugs had me bashing my head against the wall. It isn't polished enough to put the source code up or make available for download yet, but once I clean it up I will, of course, make it available as I did with my old version.

 

Using a sample gear set with Columi level stats, and now using TP (my old sim did not), the following changes to Combat Medic max HPS are seen:

 

Burst: 82.7% of 1.1.5 values.

Sustained: 79.4% of 1.1.5 values.

 

This agrees with other reports we've seen of ~20% reduction in healing across the board.

 

 

 

Ruqu heres what he was mentioning about me3

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/mass-effect-3-updated-ending-revealed-bioware-announces-plan-fix-video-game-conclusion-fans-article-1.1057318

[RuQu]

I don't know if this was mentioned as I was just skimming past the replies but i've noticed that with gear and buffs, the internal % increase to abilities gets totally out of whack. For instance the 10% to periodic effects from medical therapy only gives you the 10% if you are naked. As soon as you start adding gear that 10% becomes about 4%. I'm thinking the same thing is happening to the 10% buff to RN and if you did it naked you you probably see the 10% they say.

 

Horrible coding is all i can think.

 

Spells are controlled by three variables:

coefficient, standardHealthPercentMin, standardHealthPercentMax

 

coefficient defines how it scales, and is what your bonus damage or bonus healing is multiplied by.

 

standardHealthPercentMin/Max are multiplied by a constant value, standardHealth, that is determined by the level you can train the rank of the spell. For level 50, this value is 7085.

 

What you are suggesting would mean that the standardHealthPercent values changed by 10%, but the coefficient did not. I actually checked that, and, while I don't have that computer with me at work today to give you the exact value, the short answer is that this is not the case. I took into account the different number of ticks between the two versions, but both the coefficient and standardHealth values had changed by 3.X% (again, can't get the exact value without my personal laptop).

[RuQu]

Ruqu heres what he was mentioning about me3

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/mass-effect-3-updated-ending-revealed-bioware-announces-plan-fix-video-game-conclusion-fans-article-1.1057318

 

Thank you for that. While I am still disappointed that all of those variables stored over 3 games all amounted to a standard, classic 3-way choice at the end (and one extremely similar to an old favorite of mine, the original Deus Ex), the free DLC should at least help clean up the loose ends.

 

More importantly, it is good to see BW responding to the criticism and doing something to make amends (free DLC). An actual change to the entire final mission was probably too much development cost to ever be reasonable, even if it would have been ideal.