Sentinel ops DPS in 1.2

[gunte]

So i was reading the patch notes for 1.2 and found a part that to me were completely outrageous.

 

1. Force Fade no longer grants damage reduction while Force Camouflage is active. It now increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 1 second per point and increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 10% per point.

 

This is what pushes melee dps in ops over the edge from "less preferable" to "pointless".

 

Im a 50 Watchman spec who is now in full rakata gear and have cleared both ops on HM several times. Im the only melee dps in our "main" ops group since lets be honest, why bring a melee that requires healing from the bosses aoes when you might as well have ranged that doesnt. My usefullness has all been thanks to force fade granting 100 % damage reduction which meant that we could pop it as the bosses made their big hits and thus we wouldnt need as much healing. Now though, they have taken that one thing that made melee dps actually worth it and thrown it in the garbade can. This is taken even further with the nerfs to both sage and commando healing (dont think scoundrels got hit) so healing in general in an ops is even more precious. so WHY WHY WHY would any ops bring a melee dps that cant even avoid the big hits anymore?

 

Please bioware i am begging you to give us the 100% damage reduction from force fade back. For the sake of all sentinels out there. You have taken away every reason to bring us along. I know force camo now gives 50 % reduction but its not enough. Sure our damage is just as good as the ranged classes, we have utility in inspiration, transcendence and zen healing (if you are watchman) but its all.. just pointless now..

Please i want to be able to feel like i contribute to the group and not just be a drag that soakes up damage and needs constant healing. All bosses allready favours ranged enough.

 

Am i the only one who feels like this?

[JoseSilva]

My good are you all a bunch of wieners that don't know how to play with you're class.

 

1 - Sentinel is the best DPS pve in the game.

 

2 - As the best party buffs.

 

3 - Altought you have a difficult times couse of being melee, right now there is plenty of ways to prevent big hits.

 

4 - Sentinels have a insane survival.

 

You are playing the most op classe in game that did not take any nerf and you only complain!!

 

And as a point force camouflage still grants 50% damage reduction.

 

Edit: My guild already did Nightmares a bunch of times with 2 sentinels. We even have the 2 hours codex.

Edited March 17, 2012 by JoseSilva

[gunte]

My good are you all a bunch of wieners that don't know how to play with you're class.

 

1 - Sentinel is the best DPS pve in the game.

 

2 - As the best party buffs.

 

3 - Altought you have a difficult times couse of being melee, right now there is plenty of ways to prevent big hits.

 

4 - Sentinels have a insane survival.

 

You are playing the most op classe in game that did not take any nerf and you only complain!!

 

And as a point force camouflage still grants 50% damage reduction.

 

Edit: My guild already did Nightmares a bunch of times with 2 sentinels. We even have the 2 hours codex.

 

1. didnt say anything about our dps, (oh i did i said its great)

 

2. didnt say anything about our buffs (oh i did theyre great)

 

3. yes like running away from the boss whereas any ranged can stand still and do theyre thing with no problem or we can pop force camo (oh not for very long)

 

4. Yes we do, in pvp this wont affect us at all, in pve we will require so much more healing thus making us a drag to bring along.

 

Yes ive also done the nightmare ops, how many have u done with sents in 1.2?? im nto saying it cant be done, im just saying there no point in bringing us compared to the ranged classes. same damage only we need to get healed a lot.

 

*edit* u dont seem to be playing a sentinel in endgame content so why are you here writing??????

Edited March 17, 2012 by gunte

[popober]

Yeah I get this. I'll be honest, I've only done Karagga's at regular ONCE, so I'm no expert at this topic, but I do see people preferring range dps in general, I've been dropped once in favor of a GS.

 

They really should make bosses more "balanced" in terms of handling melee and ranged classes, like a boss having some kind of reflect or something, or maybe popping barriers that nulls ranged for a time, or occasionally pulling classes that do ranged damage in. |This might add more strategy like making the ranged and melee classes take turns in shining since ranged guys can no longer just sit there. I don't know, just some suggestions.

[gunte]

Yeah I get this. I'll be honest, I've only done Karagga's at regular ONCE, so I'm no expert at this topic, but I do see people preferring range dps in general, I've been dropped once in favor of a GS.

 

They really should make bosses more "balanced" in terms of handling melee and ranged classes, like a boss having some kind of reflect or something, or maybe popping barriers that nulls ranged for a time, or occasionally pulling classes that do ranged damage in. |This might add more strategy like making the ranged and melee classes take turns in shining since ranged guys can no longer just sit there. I don't know, just some suggestions.

 

yes something like this would balace it out, dont get me wrong i dont find sentinels underpowered in any way its just our usefulness in ops that got bumped on pretty hard.

[JoseSilva]

1. didnt say anything about our dps, (oh i did i said its great)

 

2. didnt say anything about our buffs (oh i did theyre great)

 

3. yes like running away from the boss whereas any ranged can stand still and do theyre thing with no problem or we can pop force camo (oh not for very long)

 

4. Yes we do, in pvp this wont affect us at all, in pve we will require so much more healing thus making us a drag to bring along.

 

Yes ive also done the nightmare ops, how many have u done with sents in 1.2?? im nto saying it cant be done, im just saying there no point in bringing us compared to the ranged classes. same damage only we need to get healed a lot.

 

*edit* u dont seem to be playing a sentinel in endgame content so why are you here writing??????

 

I only have a sentinel so of course i play a sentinel in end game. My talked about dps and buffs to make my point that sentinel is the most op dps for operations. Only 2º boss of eternaty vault is a problem for melee dps.

 

People keep thinking that ranged is easy mode and melee hard but thats a lie.

 

eternaty vault

 

1º boss is peace of cake. A salvation in you're spot and you dont need more healing.

 

2º boss is the ONLY boss that is a nightmare for melee but if you take some steps back when he does pounce and frenzy and no damage for you.

 

3º boss peace of cake, i dont even undarstand how they did a boss so easy.

 

4º boss you shine like a star.

 

5º boss is the same for melee and range, the only think you can lose dps is when you go blow up your ball you cant hit but you can do it pretty fast.

 

Karaggas

 

1º aoe for everyone so no difference between ranged and melee.

 

2º you can shine hitting pretty hard the healers and interrupting is healings while the rest of the team is on the dps.

 

3º run for the marks and the same for everyone.

 

4º you stay down and hit the boss like a crazy and done.

 

5º stay out of the *** of karaggas and off the front and you will not take damage, on the other side the rangeds will take alot from the black holes.

 

So all this to stay force camouflage is not that important. Melee have no problem in this game as a dps on operations. And Sentinel was not nerf.

[babiegirlla]

I don't see how buffing a classes utility makes their dps any different, because it doesn't...

 

Our dps was already amazing.

Edited March 17, 2012 by babiegirlla

[gunte]

I don't see how buffing a classes utility makes their dps any different, because it doesn't...

 

Our dps was already amazing.

 

Our dps is the same, whats your point?

[Asphen]

 

So all this to stay force camouflage is not that important. Melee have no problem in this game as a dps on operations. And Sentinel was not nerf.

 

 

 

 

This dude wins this thread. 100%

 

 

 

/thread.

[andrew_b_gross]

So all this to stay force camouflage is not that important. Melee have no problem in this game as a dps on operations. And Sentinel was not nerf.

 

I'm pretty sure the OP must be trolling. We're doing nightmare mode ops (we can one shot first 4 in EV but are still having problems with Soa so no achievement for us), and most nights I don't even press the force camo button. I die less frequently than any other dps, ranged or melee, by a significant stretch. (The first time we killed the first two bosses in nightmare mode, it was me and a healer as the only 2 left standing when I finished off the boss).

 

Force camo the only reason to bring a Sentinel *has* to be a troll.

[Quesadilla]

So i was reading the patch notes for 1.2 and found a part that to me were completely outrageous.

 

1. Force Fade no longer grants damage reduction while Force Camouflage is active. It now increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 1 second per point and increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 10% per point.

 

This is what pushes melee dps in ops over the edge from "less preferable" to "pointless".

 

Im a 50 Watchman spec who is now in full rakata gear and have cleared both ops on HM several times. Im the only melee dps in our "main" ops group since lets be honest, why bring a melee that requires healing from the bosses aoes when you might as well have ranged that doesnt. My usefullness has all been thanks to force fade granting 100 % damage reduction which meant that we could pop it as the bosses made their big hits and thus we wouldnt need as much healing. Now though, they have taken that one thing that made melee dps actually worth it and thrown it in the garbade can. This is taken even further with the nerfs to both sage and commando healing (dont think scoundrels got hit) so healing in general in an ops is even more precious. so WHY WHY WHY would any ops bring a melee dps that cant even avoid the big hits anymore?

 

Please bioware i am begging you to give us the 100% damage reduction from force fade back. For the sake of all sentinels out there. You have taken away every reason to bring us along. I know force camo now gives 50 % reduction but its not enough. Sure our damage is just as good as the ranged classes, we have utility in inspiration, transcendence and zen healing (if you are watchman) but its all.. just pointless now..

Please i want to be able to feel like i contribute to the group and not just be a drag that soakes up damage and needs constant healing. All bosses allready favours ranged enough.

 

Am i the only one who feels like this?

 

That must have been the only part of the patch notes you read, because you clearly overlooked the part that says, "Force Camouflage now additionally reduces all damage taken by 50% while active."

[Funick]

I've finished nightmare mode as well, I don't run the force cammo buff as is since its pointless in pvp and I haven't felt a need to re spec for pve. you should be able to avoid most aoe through proper positioning and what aoe you do take you should be getting hit by for much less than those around you thanks to -30% aoe damage and rebuke aoe heals and self heals should be more than enough to counter what you take.

 

sentinel is easily top tier dps and has a ton of survivability, can even tank for short periods as necessary.

[Nyjin]

I will miss the Force Camo 100 percent damage reduction, as I used it in Operations for some things (Proximity Violation from Ann. Droid, Starting Damage from Crusher), but it isn't a deal breaker.

 

For situations where you need to survive, you still have Guarded.

 

Proper-positioning will still save you the most.

 

Oh, and Ranged DPS may do slightly better but, honestly, you only lose a few seconds in some fights in comparison. (Several seconds to back away...Leap Back in to resume DPS).

 

This isn't a deal-breaker, just a minor thing. Our buffs definitely outweigh any nerfs.

[Aaramis]

While I can certainly sympathize with you on some flashpoints and ops being anti-melee friendly, this thread should be titled "WATCHMAN ops DPS in 1.2", not "Sentinel".

 

Focus and Combat never had a "get out of jail free card" like Watchmen had, and simply had to deal with it.

At least now the playing field is a bit more even/fair for those, although yes, I would still like to see some fights that weren't so ranged-combat friendly and favoured melee.

[-Jodea-]

I have cleared ALL content without the force camo buff, it is not needed.

[ztee]

I have cleared ALL content without the force camo buff, it is not needed.

 

The only fight id like it to work on bugs when you use it - so i specd out of it (SOA NMM lightning orbs)

 

its really not a requirement, and any uptime arguments people want to try and bring are welcome ....

[Talorra]

The only fight id like it to work on bugs when you use it - so i specd out of it (SOA NMM lightning orbs)

 

its really not a requirement, and any uptime arguments people want to try and bring are welcome ....

 

That's not a bug. Camo is a threat dump too. Drop threat, drop your orb. Rebuke is more than enough to see you through nightmare lightning orbs.

[DoctorSeven]

If you can't live through anything a boss tosses at you with a 50% damage reduction then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Sentinel is arguably the best single target DPS in the game, PVE or PVP. No, we can't AoE with the rest of them but when it comes to taking down big bosses we're pretty amazing.

 

If you're having some problems with hits then I don't know what to tell you. Rebuke alone allows me to live through ball lightnings on Soa nightmare, even when they bug out and I get hit once prior to explosion, explosion, then hit again. This doesn't even include when our mages simply toss out a Force Armour.

 

Annihilation Droid you can stay out and melee with decent gear, a Zen pop for health regen and a Rebuke. This is even easier if you have a healer that can toss out an AoE heal. For Gharj you need to run out of range of his Pounce and then Force Leap back. You lose maybe 4 seconds of DPS which you can rapidly make up for. Problems with the Fabricator fight losing DPS because you can't melee the boss with those debuffs? Congrats, you have a tank that can't position properly as you can melee that boss non-stop, barring stun droids, if your tank positions him right (it is not hard to do as I have both a 50 Guardian and Sentinel). Karagga giving you problems? Congrats, your tank can't position properly, which again isn't super hard to do.

 

I don't know what to tell you. My guild has beaten NMs, HMs and NMs. We even 1 shot Soa with 3 Sentinels on an 16 man NM (though granted 1 shotting Soa is more about having a bug-free boss session than anything else).

 

To me whenever someone says "our guild doesn't take Sentinels on raids" it says more that the guild is willing to give up arguably the best single target DPS because they don't want to take an extra second or two to position a boss.

[Dagimpster]

So i was reading the patch notes for 1.2 and found a part that to me were completely outrageous.

 

1. Force Fade no longer grants damage reduction while Force Camouflage is active. It now increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 1 second per point and increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 10% per point.

 

This is what pushes melee dps in ops over the edge from "less preferable" to "pointless".

 

Im a 50 Watchman spec who is now in full rakata gear and have cleared both ops on HM several times. Im the only melee dps in our "main" ops group since lets be honest, why bring a melee that requires healing from the bosses aoes when you might as well have ranged that doesnt. My usefullness has all been thanks to force fade granting 100 % damage reduction which meant that we could pop it as the bosses made their big hits and thus we wouldnt need as much healing. Now though, they have taken that one thing that made melee dps actually worth it and thrown it in the garbade can. This is taken even further with the nerfs to both sage and commando healing (dont think scoundrels got hit) so healing in general in an ops is even more precious. so WHY WHY WHY would any ops bring a melee dps that cant even avoid the big hits anymore?

 

Please bioware i am begging you to give us the 100% damage reduction from force fade back. For the sake of all sentinels out there. You have taken away every reason to bring us along. I know force camo now gives 50 % reduction but its not enough. Sure our damage is just as good as the ranged classes, we have utility in inspiration, transcendence and zen healing (if you are watchman) but its all.. just pointless now..

Please i want to be able to feel like i contribute to the group and not just be a drag that soakes up damage and needs constant healing. All bosses allready favours ranged enough.

 

Am i the only one who feels like this?

so your complaint is that they are taking away your damage reduction ability while stealth?

 

If you are taking so much damage that u are dieing in fights u are doing it wrong or your healers is wicked lazy. i never die to anything but my own stupidity, and force leap putting me in weird spots at the wrong time (you all know its true).

 

My main group for a while had 3 Sent. in it had all dps 3 inspirations which means u could potentially get 5-6 inspirations per fight. We never had a problem and yes we take some extra damage but most of it is avoidable by ether jumping or moving away. plus Watchmen spec you are healing yourself with every crit and then you and your self with every zen, which makes up for that little damage.

[Morniel]

Sentinels have more defensive cooldowns than just about every other class in the game, on top of that we have a talent that grants passive 30% damage reduction to ALL AoE. if you're really that "challenged" and need the DR from old Force Fade to survive, i suggest you put 2 points into defensive roll instead - which will give you 30% reduction 100% of the time, plus 80% reduction whenever you use force camo.

[muradi]

How is 50% not enough. You have a ton of base reduction and rebuke.

Right now I am 1 point into phantom. Force crits that hit bm sages for 5k hit me for 600 in force camo.

[gunte]

I think pretty much everyone who wrote here misunderstood what i meant or just didnt try to understand. First of all this is purely about PvE. Secondly im not saying sentinels are underpowered, im not saying sentinels die faster than other classes, im not saying im gonna die in 3 seconds without force fade, im not saying sentinels doesnt have good defensive abilities (I tank HMs with mine for crying out loud), im not saying we lack DPS or utility or any of the sort.

 

My point is this and please dont read a bunch of other stuff into it or twist my words.

 

As a Melee, sentinels will automatically need more healing than any ranged class, its just the way it is. Sure there are bosses where it doesnt really matter (Soa for example) since the damage mainly doesnt come from the boss. But lets put it this way, you can choose to bring a sentinel or a commando to your ops, both players are equally good and the classes deal about the same damage, ignoring other utilities (buffs, knockbacks etc) would you rather bring the sentinel that WILL require more healing alternatively stop dpsing and moving away from the boss or the commando that can stand and do his thing forever with no healing required?

 

Someone previously listed bosses that are NOT advantagous for ranged classes and sure there are a few. But are there any bosses where being Melee is more of an advantage than being ranged? IF you want to really optimise the raid in terms of healing needed you would have 1 melee and thats the tank and the rest 7 can stand in the distance safely away being cousy in a salvation.

 

With force fade sentinels have been able to avoid the really big hits and thus reduce the need for healing. Commandos (or any other ranged class) get this for free simply by being ranged. That is their best defensive ability.

 

Undoubtebly there will be people who still choose to not read what im actually saying and come with replies like: "roll a commando then and stop complaining" or whatever. Im simply trying to explain just how important force fade was and how big of an impact it had.

[DoctorSeven]

I think pretty much everyone who wrote here misunderstood what i meant or just didnt try to understand. First of all this is purely about PvE. Secondly im not saying sentinels are underpowered, im not saying sentinels die faster than other classes, im not saying im gonna die in 3 seconds without force fade, im not saying sentinels doesnt have good defensive abilities (I tank HMs with mine for crying out loud), im not saying we lack DPS or utility or any of the sort.

 

My point is this and please dont read a bunch of other stuff into it or twist my words.

 

As a Melee, sentinels will automatically need more healing than any ranged class, its just the way it is. Sure there are bosses where it doesnt really matter (Soa for example) since the damage mainly doesnt come from the boss. But lets put it this way, you can choose to bring a sentinel or a commando to your ops, both players are equally good and the classes deal about the same damage, ignoring other utilities (buffs, knockbacks etc) would you rather bring the sentinel that WILL require more healing alternatively stop dpsing and moving away from the boss or the commando that can stand and do his thing forever with no healing required?

 

Someone previously listed bosses that are NOT advantagous for ranged classes and sure there are a few. But are there any bosses where being Melee is more of an advantage than being ranged? IF you want to really optimise the raid in terms of healing needed you would have 1 melee and thats the tank and the rest 7 can stand in the distance safely away being cousy in a salvation.

 

With force fade sentinels have been able to avoid the really big hits and thus reduce the need for healing. Commandos (or any other ranged class) get this for free simply by being ranged. That is their best defensive ability.

 

Undoubtebly there will be people who still choose to not read what im actually saying and come with replies like: "roll a commando then and stop complaining" or whatever. Im simply trying to explain just how important force fade was and how big of an impact it had.

And what we're saying is that you don't need Force Fade.

 

I know this because I've cleared 16 NM mode with three Sentinels, a Guardian tank, a Guardian DPS and a Shadow tank. If you use your defensive cool downs appropriately you will not be taking excessive damage, especially adding to the fact you can heal 18% of your own health every Zen in addition to healing from random crits.

 

I honestly cannot think of a single operation mode fight where I take any more damage than ranged. Annihilation Droid ranged has to stand in the open to attack during the missile phase, so they get hit too. Gharj you simply run away for a second or two during pounce. Soa during ball lightnings everyone has to eat the ball lightning and we have passive 30% AoE damage reduction IN ADDITION to Rebuke's 20%. Plus you can't even Force Fade those balls because they'll deaggro, go to the centre of the raid, and kill the rest of your group. Bonecrusher you stand behind him outside of his swipe range, Fabricator you can melee constantly the entire fight if your tank has half a brain to position him close to the inside of the room, and you have half a brain to stay out of the killzone for a split second while the debuff is applied, and Karagga is fine if your tank can position him.

 

If your raid is that starved for healing it means one or both of these things: 1) your healers suck 2) your tank sucks

 

Plus, as we've said before, Sentinel is probably the best single target PVE DPS in the entire game. I guess if your guild wants to give that up rather than make people learn to get decent at their jobs then good for them?

Edited March 20, 2012 by DoctorSeven

[Vasinar]

I disagree

 

I only have a sentinel so of course i play a sentinel in end game. My talked about dps and buffs to make my point that sentinel is the most op dps for operations. Only 2º boss of eternaty vault is a problem for melee dps.

 

People keep thinking that ranged is easy mode and melee hard but thats a lie.

 

eternaty vault

 

1º boss is peace of cake. A salvation in you're spot and you dont need more healing.

The fact your in salvation sint "more healing"?

Melee has to run farther to los the rocket attack or get to the heal "turtle"

 

2º boss is the ONLY boss that is a nightmare for melee but if you take some steps back when he does pounce and frenzy and no damage for you.

Um ya this is not a little lets just look past boss..this is WHY ranged is prefered over melee in operations. If you have a quick study and the melee recognizes when garj is about to pounce, that is dps that he is not sustaining, while the enrage timer ticks. I dare you to try this stratagy with a whole team of melee then try again with a whole team of ranged. Id like a report on your findings

 

3º boss peace of cake, i dont even undarstand how they did a boss so easy.

nothing with this boss is relevent to this thread.

 

4º boss you shine like a star.

Everyone one shines with the exception of a healer that has no dps, and even with that you can give limited help, irrelevent to this thread.

 

5º boss is the same for melee and range, the only think you can lose dps is when you go blow up your ball you cant hit but you can do it pretty fast.

You sort of get the idea with this description, but you gloss over the problem..you lose dps...that is no small matter

 

Karaggas

 

1º aoe for everyone so no difference between ranged and melee.

yes there is, even though the hit box is very large you still must be positioned somewhat close without being too close to the sides, which is also a big hitbox

 

2º you can shine hitting pretty hard the healers and interrupting is healings while the rest of the team is on the dps.

I wouldnt call that shining, thats our job to interupt..but if we can spin it that way game on!

 

3º run for the marks and the same for everyone.

This boss has some challanges for ranged that I dont see as melee, in the rock throws, but easily avoidable and dps is continual for ranged...melee is thrown back halting all dps

 

4º you stay down and hit the boss like a crazy and done.

Um ya..its not that easy...you can not even do this boss if your team is all melee. ranged is required. The more melee the worse off you are as the rocket hits for big aoe dmg plus a knockdown..lots of melee = lots of aoe dmg and momentary cc...and that is sure death for any ops grp. The controls require ranged...no where in this game is melee ever required

 

5º stay out of the *** of karaggas and off the front and you will not take damage, on the other side the rangeds will take alot from the black holes.

the ranged can manuver away from the black holes and keep dps on karagga..melee may be prevented from being in hit range because of the fire puddles..if that happens your bucking enrage timer...if it happens with 2 or more melee game over..

 

So all this to stay force camouflage is not that important. Melee have no problem in this game as a dps on operations. And Sentinel was not nerf.

[Game-Hermit]

And as a point force camouflage still grants 50% damage reduction.

Combine that with the -30% AOE damage skill and you still have -80% damage from the AOE's the OP is complaining about. I don't see the problem.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Game-Hermit