Best burst comes from using HiB before proc then get proc then HiB again (with grenade mixed in), incendiary round our other dot (useful for delaying procs and becuase 30m range so we can always assist) costs 3 ammo, also even while fighting someone if you are the only one applying dots and they cleanse when they hear our proc you have to reapply dot before HiB which slows down our dps and costs extra ammo, with multiple vanguards this is a non issue because as you said we each apply a dot simply by trying to get procs, further more when switching target someone still working on getting a proc can get the dot on while those who have proc already can just go straight to HiB. Having multiple assault vanguards assisting allows them to all maximize their own ammo efficiency and damage and means those at greater than 10m range can still assist with HiB without having to use incendiary round. If sentinels all try to assist they set themselves up for chain aoe stun and mass aoe. did I mention unguarded healers regardless of type don't live against untaunted vanguards. Guarded healers especial hybrid sage with aoe kb root have a decent chance of living through the taunted sentinels. Taunt is 30% damage reduction, inspiration is 15% damage increase... Yeah well placed awe and using their speed to outmaneuver is team sent's best chance but I suspect the team vanguard's ability to actually keep healers up will actually lead to much greater ability to hold points in the long run. The better group comps I've been seeing are 2 tanks 2 healers 3 dps vanguards 1 combat sent. or replace a vanguard with a gun slinger. Either one of these I'm confident could beat 6 vanguard 2 healers or 6 sents 2 healers pretty consistently, you are right sentinel speed is pretty important.

yeah cammo against 6 stealth detects nice try, there's no getting away other than maybe combat sent speed. you don't run all 6 assault, have at least two of them in tank stance either tactics or shield tree, I've actually run into this in rateds, it's biggest disadvantage is lack of mara/sent speed boost so they can be outmaneuvered but the brute force will beat your group unless you are very organized with cc. 1v1 sent/mara should beat vanguard/PT most of the time but in groups vanguards make each other better, they can much more easily assist without all being in aoe for cc or damage. they save amomo by not always having to apply their own dot before using HiB/rail shot so each one's damage actually goes up. Finally they can taunt or pull off of each other. I have little doubt that group synergy provided by vanguard group easily wins especially since they have tanks so their healers have a chance at living long enough to do something, while the sentinels watch their group's unguarded healers die instantly to 4 dps vanguard/PTs

so if I expect my class to be god why am I pushing for it to be nerfed, I think sentinel should also have it's defensive cool downs toned down but that's for another thread.

Tank stance with assault spec got heavily nerfed and is no longer viable. Tank stance with tactics is one of the best tank set ups and still does solid dps sustain but this is not the set up we are complaining about in this thread. This thread is about assault spec going for full dps and getting some of the most consistent best burst and pretty much be the dominant dps in rated wz's Also yeah vanguard was advertised as the ranged tank but as it has no means of keeping anything at range and especially in tank spec stockstrike(melee range) is pretty much your best attack you pretty much are just a melee tank like anyone else, the only aspect of Vanguard that really supports ranged tanking is the aoe detaunt not being based around you but rather your target.

also make sure you understand how they add and that shield doesnt work on crits. consider the following: 25% defense chance(after factoring in acc) 50% shield chance against say a 20% crit chance would mean: 25% of white damage* attacks gets dodged 15% of white damage attacks crit (20% of 75%) 37.5% of white damage attacks don't crit and get shielded (50% of 75%) 22.5% of white damage attacks don't crit but are not shielded. *most pve damage is white damage while much of the pvp damage is yellow which bypasses all defense/shield. so while at first glance you may expect 75% of attacks to be shielded or dodged actually only 62.5% are and of course shield only partially blocks the damage and only on the weaker hitting non-crits, also if crit and shield were to add to over 100% the crit over rides and effectively caps the shield chance.

in pvp with full buffs I run: 1832 STR 965 power 240 crit rating 371 surge 159 acc. 1208 expertise this gives: 617.8 melee bonus damage 31.85% melee crit chance 77.95% crit multiplier 22.84% expertise damage multiplier 96.3-102.3% acc depending on spec. oh and 18995 hp um I switched out all the WH mods for ones that have +39 power or crit and switched out all the enhancements for ones that give +41 power or crit. I used power crystals in my light sabers. I used orange belt/bracers with 61 pve might armorings and WH mods. I run STR augments

I am a fully optimized WH vanguard. I'm pushing for it to get nerfed. Rated wz are just silly when its mostly a question of which team has more PT/vanguards assisting each other and both sides are simply focusing the other side's vanguards/PTs. either your vanguard is one of the worst played or geared dps vanguards in the game (considering assault vanguard has one of the easiest dps rotations in the game) or your guild has far more dps than is actually necessary to clear all the content and you are far too concerned about damage meters as clearly damage is not what is holding back your group. dps vanguard easily puts out enough dps for completion of all content I say that as someone who has and with vanguard as one of the top dps in the group.

you should not automatically stun a mara when they are on you, filling their resolve at the wrong time depending on their spec can be a death sentence. If you want to stop getting owned by sentinels then learn their specs and when each should be stunned. For instance a combat spec should be stunned when they use precision slash for their armor pen buff, if they have full resolve and they use this you are dead without some major tanking help. They are a melee dps class, they have to go into melee range to do their damage. That means they have to follow you to do damage, so you can lead them to your team mates so they can peel. it also means roots which are not on the resolve meter can completely shut them down. know a class's weaknesses and strengths before you complain. the OP part of sentinels is their excessive amount of defensive cool downs, their damage and ability to assist their team mates can be greatly reduced with good team work on your own end and knowing how to keep them at bay.

um if you kill stuff to lvl collect drops sell to npc if you quest, complete quests get paid if you space missions um complete space missions get money if you wz finish wz collect money. (leaving early doesn't get you paid) also be very careful about crafting, make sure you are saving/making money not just wasting it. really never heard of anyone being unable to buy basic upgrades while lvling. once you are 46+ you can do ilum dailies for a lot of money.

so do you want balance based on pve? in pve it really doesn't matter who does the most damage, only if your group can clear the content. pve is so easy in this game many have long since cleared all content available and have done so with pretty much any dps class present in their group. in pve it is my understanding that currently GS sents and vanguards all are maxing out around the same at the top of the damage meters. (if you have evidence of something else feel free to link) . in pvp: sents are kited, greatly reducing their dps output, GS are LOSed greatly reducing their damage output. Vanguards are extremely difficult/impossible to kite due to having 10m range snare and 30m on several abilities, pull makes up for no leap. Vanguards are difficult to los because they are don't have to stop moving to use a lot of their damage like a GS. So vanguards typically don't have their dps reduced nearly as much as GS or sents in pvp. This is where the idea of reduced range on vanguard makes a lot of sense in keeping pve mostly the same but helping balance pvp.

well 98% I know at least used to cap your acc for all pve, not sure if that's still true, don't really run pve anymore.

as you said in your first sentence they are in heavy armor, the key to their defense in group play is having this passive mitigation so when guarded/supported by their team they easily survive, other classes if caught without cool downs or stun locked so they can't use their cool downs go down much easier. One of vanguard/PT 's biggest strengths is they don't depend on their cool downs to take people down or survive (although it gets some decent cool downs). Also you forgot to mention Vanguard/PT's biggest defense which is their ability to kite while still putting out full dps and keeping their target snared.

yeah 3-5 seconds of having to kill guy next to you first. if there's no one else left alive for me to kill then does it really matter? btw we can still apply our dot through resilience with hammer shot (dot will do no damage and only has a chance of applying) which allows for use of HiB. vanguards strength isn't 1v1 although they can do very well in most 1v1s. its their burst and how difficult their dps is to kite or LOS due to their mix of mobility, range and passive defenses. This also allows for some of the best assisting. There are other dps that can situationally put up more dps or set up as big of bursts but no other class can put out their dps and burst as consistently in rateds which is why you see so many top rated teams relying on vanguard/PT dps.

um... HiB is a special attack this is different from a tech attack because while they have the same amount of accuracry, tech attacks are not subject to a defense check, only resistance counts against tech attacks and other than shadow/assassin shroud no one will have any resistance in pvp. HiB as a ranged special attack does have to deal with a defense check, everyone has at least 5% defense chance. so to make sure HiB doesn't miss you would need 95% basic acc or 105% special attack acc. now inquis/consulars have 10% base defense chance and tanks can run upwards of 20% defense chance in defense gear so some like to run 100% basic acc to deal with the 10% defense chance and do better against tanks. Personally I run 96% acc because the trade off is acc vs surge and none of my other abilities really need any acc since they are tech, if a target has very high defense chance I just save HiB for other targets.

operative would do more damage with less expertise than that, to have that much you aren't using power crystal or orange belt/bracers with 61 pve armorings. The expertise of WH belt/bracers or expertise crystal are not worth the loss of main stat or powe for damage. maybe expertise is not the problem...

don't worry as long as teams of them are just charging and railshotting and not stunlocking they wont get nerfed. honestly as someone who's two most geared chars are a sent and a vanguard my opinion is: Sent's should probably have their group speed buff nerfed a bit so ranked groups don't feel it necessary to always run a combat sent. otherwise its just they have too many defensive cool downs with too short of cool downs so I suggest increasing cool down on GBTF to 3min base instead of 1min 30 sec. or maybe even take it away entirely. Vanguards have far too easy of a time assisting and staying on targets combined with incredible burst. I suggest shorting max range on incendiary round, HiB and sticky grenade/assault plasique to 10m, also perhaps make it only their own dots allow for HiB so teams of Vanguards don't help each other as much. That may not even be enough, they may need some straight decreases in the damage of some of their abilities. I consider both classes OP, sent mostly for 1v1 and for having silly survivability, Vanguard for having unstoppable damage that so easily assists and is so mobile that it just dominates rateds.

well technically yes you are correct, expertise multiplies the linear boosts from power/main stat so comparing them in a vacuum doesn't work, I think he was simply ballparking with reasonable amounts of power/main stat and ignoring the complications of crit chance increase from main stat. Can think of damage premitigation as (expertise multiplier)*(crit/surge multiplier)*[(ability scaler)*(bonus damage) + (base damage)] expertise multiplier is simply 1 + expertise % crit/surge multiplier is simply 1+critchance%*surge% ability scaler is the linear relation between bonus damage and tool tip damage of your ability. bonus damage is primary/force/tech depending on ability. If dual wielding also have a .3*secondary that gets added in base damage is base damage depending on ability. main stat effects both bonus damage and crit chance% power only effects bonus damage expertise only effects expertise% so yeah its not simply a question of DR for choosing stats, its also an issue of them multiplying each other. regardless main point is that for pure dps an otherwise full WH should definitely get orange belt/bracers with 61 pve armorings and power crystals possibly BH offhand although you are sacrificing survivability.

Combat, you want at least one, the speed is easily the difference in a close match, it lets you get nodes first, lets you get the first ball in huttball, not to mention allows for much faster shifting of forces and ball running. It's also a huge help for your vanguards and healers who are usually kiting most of the time. As to concerns of your team overcommiting because of the speed, thats more of a communication issue, you just have to practice getting used to the speed. Also avoid using valorous call for when you know your team really needs it such as once your team has overcommited. When you are close to wiping a group save up your centering so you can have trans ready to go. Combat also provides a lot more roots which can be used to chain root people, great for many situations in ranked. Combat may not be necessarily the best dps but it provides huge support for your group no one else can. It still can put up very solid dps numbers and big burst, it's also still a very good solo class that can very quickly break off and 1v1 for a vulnerable node.

setting an arbitrary crit chance does not lead to optimal average damage over time especially when you have 2 stats contributing independently to your crit chance, stacking too much of one too little of other can give you your arbitrary crit chance but in a very suboptimal way for example. crit vs power and main stat vs power have solutions for optimal amounts as the optimal is optimal regardless of opponent (well technically when calculating out whole rotations defensive stats can indirectly scew thing a little bit but not many stack defensive stats significantly and those that do are the last target you want to attack) . You are right its a question of how much to stack, my post was simply saying that unless you have 6k main stat you are better off stacking main stat than power (when the option is 1 for 1 such as augments and since the DR is independent it doesn't matter what your total crit % chance is the main stat simply wins unless you break 100% crit chance) acc vs surge is a bit more complicated because it varies based pretty directly on the defense chance of your opponent and missing can stop roots or dots from being applied which may be pretty important. if I can increase my average damage over time by slightly decreasing my base damage but slightly increasing my crit I will especially since that gives extra heals in watchman (zen isn't always up) and it makes master strike and blade rush more consistently devastating in combat, not to mention help all your white damage bypass shields. you can try to account for the auto crits especially in combat... simply solve for average damage of the abilities of your favorite burst rotations and remember that blade storm has 100% crit chance. adjust stats until an optimal set of stats for your damage rotations is found. don't forget to factor in chance of procs and their crit/non-crit damage with watchman you can do a few rotations and try to factor in how often you expect to use zen(varies based on how often you are attacked) and you have to worry about how your burns ignore armor but the rest of your attacks don't. unfortunately extra heals don't get easily factored in. focus you can try to work out single target but between sweep and zen slash the total damage you get in wz varies too much on how many people are getting hit to say a whole lot. In focus go ahead and do what you want sweeps make up enough of your damage I can understand the choice in power augments if you go that way, str of course helps all your filler attacks more though. with formulas from sith warrior you can easily solve for average damage of your abilities http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-364.html as for my pvp gear in combat (recently switched to combat so my acc is jacked up a bit) main hand topping 1104 crit 31.85% acc 102.34% so 96.34% without spec./stance. surge 77.95% with full buffs acc is actually the only stat I'm ok with just choosing an arbitrary amount to go for since the amount needed varies based on opponent and cool downs in use. although its not hard to calculate how much the acc vs surge helps against sets of opponents with varying defense chances. down the line if I continue playing combat a lot I may swap some acc gear for extra surge but the extra acc does help land my roots on tanks(as well as kill tanks) which is kind of important so might just go lazy route claiming better utility which is why im running combat rather than watchman or focus in the first place.

expertise isn't the issue, the issue is more total stats, black hole offhand is better for most classes limited to generators anyways.

str does not effect acc in this game

I'm glad several people have come to the correct conclusion that str always beats power for highest average damage while trading the stats 1 for 1 such as in augments (in mods the trade off is closer to 2 to 1 and the power is then much better) I thought I would just add the ballpark of when power finally beats main stat due to main stat's DR (ignoring that crits also bypass shield): without any consular buff or main stat % increase spec points... Main stat is better until ~3500 main stat. if you have consular buff (5% more main stat) but no spec for main stat... Main stat is better until ~6000 main stat(before buffs) if you have consular buff and spec for additional 9% main stat (14% total)... Main stat is better until ~10000 main stat(before buffs or spec) (sent can not get this) Of course if you have auto-crits the auto crits will average higher damage with power but everything else will suffer. Power will also give you bigger max numbers but as you will crit less often you do lose out on average unless it's an auto-crit. The amounts of main stat necessary for power to be better on average is much higher than any amount that's obtainable with current gear. Only sentinel spec I would consider power augments is focus, it has by far the largest portion of its damage from autocrit compared to the other specs and bigger sweeps also makes for great epeen shots. of course having slash or force exhaustion crit more helps a lot so there is a trade off.

its true vanguards can definitely be beat 1v1... where they shine is group play here's my list of reasons they shine so much in group play: 1) Ease of use: probably easiest viable dps rotation (tracer missle spam no longer viable) Their dps allows for easily lined up huge burst and still some of the strongest sustain in the game. it puts so many dots out that even stuns don't slow down dps too much and can even return ammo if specced. 2)Range: hardest hitting ability has 30m range... this means roots/KBs are ineffective at slowing their dps. This also makes assisting especially with multiple vanguards very easy and very powerfull. 3) Mobility: not having to use any casted abilities combined with spamable 10m range snare, good luck kiting vanguards and we can kite and still put out full dps if necessary. 4) Passive Defense: heavy armor and a long lasting defensive cool down, while not as powerful as a shadow or sentinel's defensive cool downs still very effective. also don't have to worry about getting stun locked before getting cool downs off. also this means fewer buttons to press. 5)Stuns: vanguard has both an aoe hard stun and a 30m range 4 sec single target stun. the aoe stun especially used in conjunction with team mates dropping aoe damage can just be devastating. having 30m range on our singe target stun again just makes the class that much easier. 6) Other Goodies: stealth detect, pull and taunts all help us ad a lot of utility to group play and combined with our damage really force your team to focus us over our healers. are they OP? not 1v1 but in group play they provide a bit too much, a bit too easily.

yeah really no excuse, even if you do nothing else just standing near an objective gives you plenty of medals. assassin arguably has the easiest time getting medals of any class, throwing taunts out alone should easily get you 2-3 medals in about 10 sec. you are tank spec so you have guard for even more protection so should easily be getting all the protection medals. also can definitely access all the dps medals and well not sure if you guys still get the healing medals anymore but probably still can break 75k healing. sorc I guess has the easiest time guaranteeing a medal since they can consume and heal them self for 2.5k and 5k heal easily. the no rewards for no medals is meant to stop afkers... most afkers still can play for a min and get a few medals then afk... if you play the whole time and cant get any medals I suggest going to your class forums reading up some guides or something.

I'm assuming troll thread, if he really was a quitter he would have quit before finishing putting together his post.