Single Player Raiding Endgame

[mayjin]

Do what LOTR did with the skirmish zones..you can go in as a team or on your own and it

 

was fun as hell imo...they had random special mobs spwn with other little things going

 

on..it was good while i was wating for my mates or was close to that lv 32 or

 

whatever..gave a nice little story from the lore..

 

and it lets you gear up with commendation you get from completing a skirmish..it might be

 

just me but i think it worked really well...

[NoxiousAlby]

Do what LOTR did with the skirmish zones..you can go in as a team or on your own and it

 

was fun as hell imo...they had random special mobs spwn with other little things going

 

on..it was good while i was wating for my mates or was close to that lv 32 or

 

whatever..gave a nice little story from the lore..

 

and it lets you gear up with commendation you get from completing a skirmish..it might be

 

just me but i think it worked really well..

 

It's been said before and your right it would be a good idea problem is as players we are struggling to get BW to listen. If it's not about "guilds", "community", or "grouped content" they arent showing any interest.

 

And yet their own 12 point lesson plan they brought away from studying other MMO's, point 4 deals exclusively with providing end game content for solo players to prevent them from leaving a game once they level cap.

[mayjin]

Do what LOTR did with the skirmish zones..you can go in as a team or on your own and it

 

was fun as hell imo...they had random special mobs spwn with other little things going

 

on..it was good while i was wating for my mates or was close to that lv 32 or

 

whatever..gave a nice little story from the lore..

 

and it lets you gear up with commendation you get from completing a skirmish..it might be

 

just me but i think it worked really well...

 

 

Some one call the devs to look at this please...thank you

[Vlaxitov]

Unfortunately only 38% of level 50's are participating in operations (BW own figure), what isnt being provided is end game content for the other 62%

 

By standards set by previous mmos, 38% of the top level population participating in raids is a huge success if your purpose was to have almost half of the top level playerbase beating your game in the first quarter of it's release. I look at the 38% as almost the opposite problem. There should have been much more to do pre raiding than there was.

 

Again i agree but the holy trinity of level -> dungeon -> raid -> is all we have and it's all we've been offered for the last 15 years. BW have already stated they arent about innovation. Only they want to bring together the successfull aspects of other games and incorporate them into a single game.

 

The problem is again, depth. 15 years ago it was, level, prep for raid, raid, progress through bosses at a slow rate while accumulating gear over time that enables you to defeat the next bosses, win. In this game its level, raid, win.

 

We each have our own opinion on how successfull that idea has been, but I for one was hoping for a bit of innovation.

 

At the end of the day we probably agree on alot of things. However, theres a difference between innovation and changing the purpose of something.

 

Sorry but when I meant grind that was in Cata where it was re-released as a 4 man dungeon (difficult at first or with the wrong grp). I used to grind it for badges, I suppose the point I was trying to make is that some players like to equate effort = reward. And just because a player doesnt raid it doesnt mean they dont put in effort, same can be said for solo players. I know the last class quest boss for my marauder took 2 hours to disect and analyse the fight before taking him down, on the class forums many players had to get help as they saw him as undoable.

 

WoTLK was soo bad imho, I couldn't go back for cata so I wouldn't know. Instances like ZG released as lower tier raids. If you had already substantially raided MC, you could steamroll ZG when it came out. The value in that is you could bring new people and gear them out well enough quickly to join your main raid. ZG and ZA were great instances that offered a fun bridge from the land of not raiding to raiding.

 

Giving solo players a grind like solo versions of flashpoints or operations would provide a reward, lesser reward than group content I can accept. But if your like me your over dailies and further class quests just wont provide the time grind solo players need.

 

Giving ALL players more to do before even thinking about raiding is the problem.

 

All I want is a successfull game and in order to do that BW needs to provide character progression for all segments of the playerbase. Not just pvpers & serious pve'ers but also solo players (many of which pvp just not at level cap).

 

I agree but seperating players into different catagories and catering to them seperately isn't the answer. You said yourself, "BW needs to provide character progression for all segments of the playerbase." This game needs an in depth solo game with progression that applies to everyone. What it would take for someone to prepare to raid should already have enough depth and meaning to keep a "solo player" happy for a long time. This game dumps you off at raiding come the end of leveling with next to no prep required.

 

This is the same cookie cutter model we've seen in MMOs since TBC. The reason WoW got away with it is because it was a sequel to an already mature game. I don't know why mmo devs think they can release a new game as through it was a sequal to a mature and successful already existing game today and get away with it. Untill now, Rift was the last mmo guilty of it. Recycled dungeons, content made shallow for the sake of "streamlining." You say you want inovation, I say mmos have evolved in reguards to graphics, but have done nothing but devolve when it comes to about everything else since they have become mega commercialized around the end of vanilla and or early TBC.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Vlaxitov

[Hiro-Protagonist]

I prefer to raid with friends, but I see no reason why solo players should not have something different from questing as well. Besides, there is already a solo player stat: Presence. This would seem to be the perfect stat to load on solo gear. Instead of inflating the main stats on solo "raid" gear they could put on massive amounts of presence to increase both you and your companion's damage. This would seem to be the perfect compromise as it would separate solo gear from group PvE and PvP gear.

[fofoli]

I started this thread because I was really freaking bored of this game after playing the same warzones over and over again, found ilum void of life, looked for groups, and went to a vendor and questioned why the only way to get better gear is to do stuff that felt more like work than play. I have raided a little bit, but to be honest I can get more stressed from it at times than my real job. I am not a big fan of MMO's, so much as I want a game that will earn it's sub fee by continuing to give meaningful stuff to do; to me the group content/PVP/community are just icing on the cake.

 

Once you hit endgame you stop leveling, which is the primary rewards system for MMO's; note that this game also uses story as rewards, which also stops endgame. My companions became a slave labor force for collecting crafting materials, which seems like a waste of them. There are stories in the flashpoints, and they are not very different from normal quests except for enemy difficulty. They recycled the flashpoints as hardmodes to increase their shelf life at lvl 50. I figure it would not be difficult to balance flashpoint enemies for a solo player and a few companions. Gear progress exists, but only for group or pvp content. I know solo game content will come, but I am simply saying that recycling the flashpoints/endgame gear progression as solo content would not require that much work on BW for much more added play time.

[LGalucard]

I started this thread because I was really freaking bored of this game after playing the same warzones over and over again, found ilum void of life, looked for groups, and went to a vendor and questioned why the only way to get better gear is to do stuff that felt more like work than play. I have raided a little bit, but to be honest I can get more stressed from it at times than my real job. I am not a big fan of MMO's, so much as I want a game that will earn it's sub fee by continuing to give meaningful stuff to do; to me the group content/PVP/community are just icing on the cake.

 

This needs to change and fast. I think once again wow will be the first to get the ball rolling on this. For all the hate MoP gets i think this is exactly what they are trying to address since the classic mmo model they used for Cata failed so hard that they had to spend a whole expansion addressing the issue.

 

Guild Wars 2 is also going for the same experience of dynamic unrestricted game play. However that games seems like it has been in the cooking pot forever.

 

I believe most mmos will have to make this transition as the casual audience increases and the former hardcores get jobs and families and realize they have no time to spend on a second job that instead of getting paid for you pay to do.

 

i was a hardcore gamer and im now finishing my last semester of college as well working part time. I have little to no time to play, extra time usually means sacrificing my sleep hours which are becoming most precious as time goes on. I don't see my time situation improving when i switch to full time job. Logging into a game to perform another series of work like tasks is not rewarding and once the leveling process is done the illusion of that kept the game from becoming a job is pretty much gone.

[Sunsoar]

I'm pretty sure I saw something during the guild summit that said they're making it so you can solo ops. It's called story mode or something like it. Heroic and Nightmare modes will be the actual group content.

 

The item drops will be outdated gear that is 3months old or something like. The dev was joking about it on stage but meh. I paid attention I just don't remember it very well.

 

Pretty sure I view/saw/heard that though

Edited March 13, 2012 by Sunsoar

[Dawgtide]

You people who use the “It's an mmo....” argument are living in the last century. In every single mmo that currently exists there is a large percentage of the player base that mostly or exclusively plays solo. Any mmo that does not account for this fact is doomed to the crapper swirl. A mmorpg does not mean a player should be forced to group with others to achieve satisfying things in game, and adding content for solo players in no way affects how people who prefer to play in a group get to experience the game. Your group content is right there before you, so get to it, bud.

 

An adamant solo player is not going to play with you anyway, and their presence in the game world is only a benefit to you, as often they are crafters, join in pvp warfronts, and help others when asked politely to, although none of this is required. Their subscription benefits the game. Maybe no one joins an mmo because of the auction house alone, but they join it to experience the game itself. A monkey could understand this.

 

The fact is, most solo players appreciate the game itself often much more than group players, many who use the game as a sort of chat room and spend their time dragging strangers into their real life problems, or as mere tools for their overbloated e-peen. An mmorpg is about choice. The idea that some group player has some right to tell a solo player to get lost out of “his” game is obscene and stupid. It is absolutely none of your business why someone else chooses to play a particular game. Get over your little selves.

 

The idea of solo dungeons is not new and is a feature of class AAA mmorpgs such as, for example, Aion and Guild Wars and Age of Conan (and if you want to jump in to trash those game, all I can say is go do it somewhere else). Even WoW has catered to solo dungeon players simply by making their content soloable once you get to a certain level above it. Many 'pro' WoW players used to post on their forums 'How To' guides to solo the more difficult content. It's all fun and it's all part of the game. In SWTOR, as in any game, the more content the merrier, no matter what it is. The addition of a solo dungeon doesn't close down a group dungeon.

 

The addition of solo dungeons has one effect: it keeps more people playing their game. But if Bioware wants to suck up only to the group players, that is a choice they will make and have to live with. As soon as it's perfectly clear that an mmorpg has relegated solo players to the second class citizen bin, the floodgates open up. The companies who make these games know this, but it is little surprise that a certain percentage of their forum barkers do not.

 

One of the main factors concerning soloable content is alts. You may be a highly sociable player with your main character, for example, but are you going to join guilds with all your alts and only do group content with all of them? MOST players enjoy playing alts as a diversion from the group chatter and look at it as a sort of respite. An mmorpg that doesn't provide a meaningful solo experience for alts has it's own demise built into it.

 

I have never met a solo mmorpg player who complained that more group content was being added to the game; yet I have met numerous whiners who think soloers should ****. I can think of no better example to show why there are, in fact, so many solo players. They just don't want to listen to that same tired old immature nonsense any more.

 

Haven't read the whole thread, but this is one of the best posts I have ever seen. I also don't think soloers expect to have the top loot in most cases. They just want to be able to craft or get decent loot. I am glad to see the hardcore ops for raiders and glad to see the ezmode ops for soloers. I am glad to see them add zones for PVPers. Bioware is on to something there. Plus adding in story they way they do is just good. For all the complaints I see, Bioware is trying to cater to many types of folks even if they realize the bread and butter is the story/solo play. They will never have enough content for hardcore 10 hours a day players and that is ok. People will never understand, but tis life.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Dawgtide

[Dawgtide]

Do what LOTR did with the skirmish zones..you can go in as a team or on your own and it

 

was fun as hell imo...they had random special mobs spwn with other little things going

 

on..it was good while i was wating for my mates or was close to that lv 32 or

 

whatever..gave a nice little story from the lore..

 

and it lets you gear up with commendation you get from completing a skirmish..it might be

 

just me but i think it worked really well...

 

No it wasn't just you. It did work well. Having hard and easy is good too.

[Dawgtide]

 

Having solo versions of flashpoints and operations will provide the grind that players are after to obtain character progression. I dont think anyone is saying the gear drops should equal group content but it will give players something to work towards. Also considering all the scripting has been done I would imagine the amount of work required would be minimal in adjusting boss mechanics and loot drops for 1 player and 3-5 companions.

 

 

It would become a grind for solo players nothing more & nothing less. Just before leaving Wow I had grinded ZA & ZG over 500 times in 3 months over 3 characters. Being able to solo flashpoints & operations with 3-5 companions would be fantastic, giving us the opportunity to

- Use more than 1 companion at a time

- Gear our companions

- gear ourselves

Put it on a lockout like group content and it would keep players entertained for months. What may seem boring and unappealing to you sounds enjoyable to a great many players.

 

That is a great idea. Just drop one or two random pieces. That would be a good timesink as soloers would have to do these multiple times to gear their alts for the next expansion and increase in levels. Even dropping some form of barter tokens like commendations would be fine. That is what LOTRO does to gear their "soldiers" in their game.

[Hiro-Protagonist]

I have raided a little bit, but to be honest I can get more stressed from it at times than my real job.

 

Just a word of advice. Find a casual guild that is really laid back. That should cut back on 99% of the stress. Raiding is a blast if you are with a guild that is about having fun.

[Fardarter]

Rift.

 

Rift has chronicles. Chronicles are for 1 well geared player or 2 normal geared players to see some of the older raid content in the game. I think they came out 6 months or so after launch maybe a little later.

 

SWTOR has so many fundamental flaws at this point I think we can expect mostly game fixing in the near future. Hopefully they can strike a balance between fixes and new content going forward. The bottom line is and I sound like a broken record, the game was release in a beta state and needs to be fixed before it can move forward.

[Saurakk]

Trion would like to have a word with you.

 

I asked Georg Zoller about this yesterday on Google plus I said I could not for the life of me understand why you couldn't Duo flashpoinst with your companions (IE two people + two companions) the only reason he could give was they were meant to be plays in groups of four.

 

He never took into account that I said that Heroic flashpoints shouldn't allow this or that I wasn't asking for operations to be soloable I simply asked that my wife and I could run a falshpoint with our companions

 

 

You can run flashpoints with two people and two companions.

[Blackardin]

Does not mean you have to group. It means that many people can be online at the same time in the same world playing the same game

 

 

 

 

There seems to be more and more who believe that the entirety of the world should stop, change, redesign because they want something that simply is not.

 

Asking the manufacture to completely redesign everyone's car because you want to fly in yours is rather ridiculous. If you want to fly, buy and airplane.

[Kendakon]

my 2 cents...

 

1 cent -- If MMO means you are forced to group all the time, shouldn't it also mean you are forced to group with EVERYONE on the server all the time. I mean, come on the first M is MASSIVELY right?...

 

2 cent -- The argument against soloing boils down to this. The group only advocates fear that solo content will mean that can't get people to group with them anymore, because they aren't forced to do it. What would possibly make them think that no-one will want to group with their self-important, entitled, closed-minded, elitest self?

[Saurakk]

my 2 cents...

 

 

 

2 cent -- The argument against soloing boils down to this. The group only advocates fear that solo content will mean that can't get people to group with them anymore, because they aren't forced to do it. What would possibly make them think that no-one will want to group with their self-important, entitled, closed-minded, elitest self?

 

The argument in no way only boils down to that. Read the thread again.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Saurakk

[Citywok]

Solo "raiding"? What bs, come on.

 

I don't care if they create ez mode versions of FP's so "soloers" can experience the story, but no way should they be able to get any gear comparable to raiding or pvp gear. That should be fine for you "soloers" because you won't be doing any group content so you don't need raid level gear. Seriously, go play skyrim or kotor, no matter what you may think, an MMO does mean that you're required to group to get great gear at the end.

 

You know what it is, a lot of you played kotor and fell in love with being a great jedi or evil sith and want your single player console experience to transfer over to the MMO SWTOR. That's not what SWTOR is. It's not a single player game where you can get all the best stuff by yourself. I'm praying for no welfare epics in SWTOR. Half of you "soloers" have never played an MMO before. Well, welcome to the jungle, this is what an MMO is. Massively Multiplayer, not Kotor with chat box and GTN.

[WasabiWei]

Personal True Story:

 

I just ran through Maelstrom Prison normal mode (solo w/ Companion) about 20 times over two days 'while waiting for Hard Mode Groups to form' with my LFG flag on and advertising/watching fleet in between runs. Over the 20-some hours I spent on my two days off hoping for some HMs I got 2 (TWO!) group opportunities, both of which ended up wiping due to weak links and poor communication.

 

I'd love to group, *screams* LOVE TO, but the opportunities just aren't there. I am in a fun but small guild who's members are mostly on Empire Side. The lack of basic Voice Chat and the poor grouping tools are so 'hardcore' that good groups are the true top-tier, ultra-rare uber loot of SWTOR that comes along so rarely that the rush 'just can't be compared'.

 

So elite..

[Asavar]

Absolutely not.

[Kalfear]

I actually embrace the single player End Game raiding concept (or better yet, allow us to use 3 companions at once for these zones and have many conversations where your choices effect the companions differently .... course I love the ship convos where 3 companions are + what ever but 2 companions are - what ever, adds variety and spice).

 

Course Im playing this game as a single player RPG now with limited multiplayer content (IE I group with a buddy 2-3 times a week for heroics and flashpoints).

 

Ive washed my hands on this ever truely being a real MMORPG and just embracing what it does right (the single player RPG style of gameplay).

 

So EA, you have convinced some of us to pay a monthly fee for a Single Player RPG, so may as well embrace that now and pump out end game content for the single player, including raid content.

 

As a Single Player RPG, this game offers up all I could ask for.

 

Im never going to do operations with people, I still havent PVPd and probably will not until you put out DAoC RVR once and for all. Ive no interest in current pre school PVP concepts in play.

 

So single player Raid Endgame, that works for me on every level to be sure.

 

Just please allow us to start using multiple companions at once as well.

[va_wanderer]

Actually, I'd love to see "squad level" encounters, up to and including at 50. You, three of your companions against whatever.

 

The gear dropped in these would have some of it's endgame stat budget/set bonuses in Presence, just like PvP gear has Expertise. So it wouldn't be as good for raiders as raid gear, but it'd still represent a "step up" for soloers.

 

Do something similar for "duo" content. You and another player + 2 companions.

[ylaenna]

Actually, I'd love to see "squad level" encounters, up to and including at 50. You, three of your companions against whatever.

 

The gear dropped in these would have some of it's endgame stat budget/set bonuses in Presence, just like PvP gear has Expertise. So it wouldn't be as good for raiders as raid gear, but it'd still represent a "step up" for soloers.

 

Do something similar for "duo" content. You and another player + 2 companions.

 

Concise and makes 100% sense to me. This has my vote.

 

I enjoy the end-game moments in DA and ME where every single member of your squad gets involved. I don't see why it couldn't be implemented here, with the companion stat Presence being dominant in whatever rewards are gained, so the "hardcore" raiders can't QQ about it.

 

Also, this would open up the door for CvC fun. My talz vs. your jawa. Broonmark, I choose you! GO!

[va_wanderer]

Concise and makes 100% sense to me. This has my vote.

 

I enjoy the end-game moments in DA and ME where every single member of your squad gets involved. I don't see why it couldn't be implemented here, with the companion stat Presence being dominant in whatever rewards are gained, so the "hardcore" raiders can't QQ about it.

 

Also, this would open up the door for CvC fun. My talz vs. your jawa. Broonmark, I choose you! GO!

 

It'd sure as heck beat the Poke-pet stuff that WoW's got coming with Mists.

 

And stuff like the Trooper's Gauntlet mission make me yearn for more time spent with my companions- who really DO get left by the sideline at 50, if you want to do most endgame play.

 

PvP? Nope. Operations? Nope. Hardmode FP's? Nope. Just once, I'd like to go in with my squad as a Trooper and clean house on a mission. Flashpoints already have "helpers" depending on which crew skills you have- I'd like to see ones that work depending on which -crew- you have.

[Vincire]

Solo endgame with 3 companions? Sign me up!

 

I would love some sort of non-raid endgame PvE along these lines. My only complaint about this game is that after you've completed the wonderful solo friendly leveling experiences, you're expected to be funneled into group-centric endgame content. I grew tired of that in TBC.

 

Furthermore, I love the idea that it would have it's own progression and would fit very well with how the game is set-up. I might further suggest scalability so that you can duo these things with a friend.

 

BioWare, make this happen and I will never buy another game

Edited March 13, 2012 by Vincire