Metrics, Serious Raiding, SWTOR Has None

[Drewser]

You're wasting your time. They've already made it obvious they're gambling on the casual crowd. Terrible choice, IMO, but it's not going to change. I don't think they have the dev experience to change it if they wanted to.

 

It's over. Man up, move on.

 

62% of all 50s have not even tried an OPs.

[Blotter]

I keep seeing people say things like this, and I'm genuinely curious. How would you solve this?

 

It's a pretty simple scenario: A boss has an enrage timer and let's say your group is consistently wiping around 10%. You've been playing with these people for a while and are pretty confident none of them are terrible, also all of the DPS claim they're doing their best.

 

Now, you as the raid leader, how do you solve this? Keep in mind you have no metrics of any kind to evaluate the performance of your group members. So really, how do you deal with it?

 

That's a blatant straw man argument. You WILL have metrics. You willbe able to mandate that all raid participants in your guild upload their combat log data file to the 3rd party website so it can be compiled and reviewed. What's hard to understand about that? This is no longer a question of 'keep in mind you have no metrics of any kind to evaluate performance"...you WILL have matrics to evaluate performance...and if the bugger doersn't upload, he doesn't come next time or even gets a boot from the guild if you're so inclined.

 

What you won't have is an in-game real-time on-the-fly dps meter that shows you everyone's performance because BW made two decisions: (1) they want to allow people their privacy of their data to help avoid to the extent possible the types of community damaging elist nonsense that goes on in other games and (2) they want you to PLAY THE FREEKIN GAME, PAY ATTENTION TO THE FIGHT AND NOT HAVE TO STARE AT A DPS METER THE WHOLE TIME DURING AN OP. Learn the boss fight the hard way or don't learn it at all: trial and error. Don't like it, take up knitting.

 

Dps meters honestly didn't make peopel better players in WoW anyway. They made them more annoying players. And they didn't improve the community, but rather damaged it. People standing in stupid to get off one more nuke or forgetting to CC because they're so concerned about their dps...that kind of crap caused just as many wipes as someone failing to keep their dps up to snuff. And on top of it, you had chest-puffing ape-brained mental-prepubescents pretending they're better than everyone else or spending the entire raid comparing epeens. No thanks. If I wanted to get annoyed by that kind of immature behavior, I'd go play WoW...which btw is that way in case any of you need help finding it -------->

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter

[RuQu]

Wow, OP....just wow.

 

Full of yourself much?

 

I've been raiding since Molten Core. Never in a server first guild, but always getting in to see content. No one I know has ever cared who got a world first or a server first, and if you all suddenly vanished....we wouldn't notice. We'd keep raiding.

 

This might come as a shock, but your achievements only matter to you. To the rest of us, no insult intended, you are irrelevant.

[Jett-Rinn]

You're wasting your time. They've already made it obvious they're gambling on the casual crowd. Terrible choice, IMO, but it's not going to change. I don't think they have the dev experience to change it if they wanted to.

 

It's over. Man up, move on.

 

There is a hundred and sixty guild leaders returning from Austin who would disagree with you; besides there is a lot you love about this game...I mean why else would you be here right?

 

[Xerel]

That's a blatant straw man argument. You WILL have metrics. You willbe able to mandate that all raid participants in your guild upload their combat log data file to the 3rd party website so it can be compiled and reviewed. What's hard to understand about that? This is no longer a question of 'keep in mind you have no metrics of any kind to evaluate performance"...you WILL have matrics to evaluate performance...and if the bugger doersn't upload, he doesn't come next time or even gets a boot from the guild if you're so inclined.

The only hard thing to understand about it is why they've chosen such a needlessly complex route, and if they were going to go with something so halfassed why it wasn't in from the start.

 

What you won't have is an in-game real-time on-the-fly dps meter that shows you everyone's performance because BW made two decisions: (1) they want to allow people their privacy of their data to help avoid to the extent possible the types of community damaging elist nonsense that goes on in other games and (2) they want you to PLAY THE FREEKIN GAME, PAY ATTENTION TO THE FIGHT AND NOT HAVE TO STARE AT A DPS METER THE WHOLE TIME DURING AN OP. Learn the boss fight the hard way or don't learn it at all: trial and error. Don't like it, take up knitting.

 

(1) They could have just as easily made this a client side setting "Share combat data with others? [yes/no]" Then no one would have to jump through these ridiculous hoops to get to the information.

 

(2) Have you done the Ops content in this game? A meter would give people something to actually pay attention to, because there certainly isn't much in the way of fight mechanics to watch out for.

 

Learn the hard way? Huh? What exactly would a meter teach me about the boss fight?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Notannos
content

[Aesri]

OP,

 

Way back when, when they first announced the damn game, they spoke to the fact that their target market were BioWare fans, Star Wars fans, and those that might not have played an MMO before.

 

No-where in there is included the idea of "hardcore raiders" or whatever.

 

Them not wanting to lean on the metrics you call for is simply them saying that unlike Blizzard, they don't want to be coding themselves into a corner that forces them to create and deliver content that must then take said metrics into account...ie: content creation that is driven by such metrics...instead of said content being created within their extant content design philosophy. That being that they want you looking at what's going on around you rather than at a given window buried in the UI.

 

Therefore, this was never going to be a hardcore raiding game in the first place.

[Vorphalack]

Therefore, this was never going to be a hardcore raiding game in the first place.

 

Then one must wonder why they decided to have a gear based progressions system, an Ops focused end game and multiple difficulty settings.

 

You've got a few peolpe saying it aint so, and all the evidence disagreeing with them. Granted the Ops execution was poor accross the board, but the intent was pretty clear.

[DukSaber]

I agree with OP,,the DEVS seem like they have never raiding and dont get why having logs and threat meters are important. I doubt any of the really did serious raiding

[Blotter]

The only hard thing to understand about it is why they've chosen such a needlessly complex route, and if they were going to go with something so halfassed why it wasn't in from the start.

 

What is so complex about "if you need to share combat log info, upload it to your guild's account on a third party website so it can be compiled and a report made"? That's how alot of other programs have worked in the past. And how is it halfassed to provide all the info raiding guilds need in a manner that also lets people protect themselves frmo elitist pigs if they don't want peopel to see their data?

 

(1) They could have just as easily made this a client side setting "Share combat data with others? [yes/no]" Then no one would have to jump through these ridiculous hoops to get to the information.

 

Really? You know this for a fact or is this just an assumption that "easy solution 1 sounds just as simple as easy solution 2 on paper, but I really and truly have no idea what either of them would require in terms of coding complexity or risk of bugs, etc."?

 

(2) Have you done the Ops content in this game? A meter would give people something to actually pay attention to, because there certainly isn't much in the way of fight mechanics to watch out for.

 

Yep. It doesn't even require a meter. Your own comment shows the hypocrisy of the pantwetter patrol. Blah blah blah it's too easy blah blah blah but I still need a meter because I'm "hardcore." Every time I see someone claim they're "hardcore" in this or any game, all I imagine is Molly Shannon playing Mary Katherine Gallagher self-proclaiming herself a "Superstar." It's basically the same thing.

 

Learn the hard way? Huh? What exactly would a meter teach me about the boss fight?

 

Either it's so helpful and necessary or it's not. You seem to be in a very self-contradictory mood.

 

 

.....

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter

[Aloro]

World of Warcraft has shown with Cataclysm that catering to casuals, with the dungeon finder, will get you a loss of 10% of your playerbase over the course of an expansion cycle.

 

Correlation is not causation. You've just demonstrated that two things happened at around the same time; you didn't prove that one caused the other.

 

Yea I know "we are just trying to throw the ball into the basket, we arent keeping score, if you wanna keep score go away because you might win". You inherently do not want my stuff your friends would laugh at you for having purples.

 

Since your reading comprehension continues to fail you, I'll say again: I'm not a casual player. My chars are in purples. Way to pay attention.

 

Or, alternately, it's possible that this is simply a different type of game, intended to cater more to casual players, and doesn't spell the death knell for progression raiding overall.

 

This is where you are a hypocrite. You lambaste me for wanting something then proselytize your way of playing, the opposite of what I want, as what SWTOR intends. This showcases your small minded world view and beats down anyone that wishes to be competitive in any way. Casual is the ONLY way!

 

Sigh. I never proselytized my way of playing; you clearly have no clue whatsoever what that would be anyhow.

 

I AM NOT A CASUAL PLAYER, CHAMP.

 

So that hypocrisy you think you saw... was based on your belief that I hold a position that I don't hold. So, ok. Still not hypocrisy, but I appreciate you at least making an attempt to back it up.

 

I am truly sorry I am a better player than you

 

I have no reason to believe you're a better player than I am; more egotistical, surely, but better? There's no evidence of that. You clearly have no idea how I play or what I enjoy, so any statements comparing our skill are clearly just projections based on your own insecurity. Clearly it's important to you to be "better", so carry on trying I guess. Good luck with that; maybe you can buy yourself a medal or a trophy so you have something concrete you can point to when people are amused by your claims of skill.

[Aloro]

Oh I am so sorry.

 

So you are just here to argue for the sake of arguing, practicing those logic skills you learned in college eh? Good show old bean good show.

 

I'm a player, here to discuss issues in the game I enjoy. My views are no less meaningful than your own, despite your attempts to portray matters otherwise.

 

Poor show old bean. Better luck next time.

[Snibb]

People were having a blast with MMOs long before any of the listed items became ''standard'' (i.e. WoW did it, so we must also) features.

 

Dont get me wrong, I think BioWare have failed to deliver almost accross the board with TOR, especially at end game, but your listed ''missing'' features are far from being the worst offence. Start with end game difficulty, lack of content and the engine problems, then come back and complain about the UI.

 

Are you serious??? Combat logs were around since text based MMO's...

Even in EQ, combat logs were there... I guess I wonder what MMO's you refer to that didn't have this feature.

Though as far as I know, threat meters came about more during the WoW period at first through player addons.

[fallenvirtues]

I wonder just how many of the developers have actually raided seriously in an MMO. Hell I wonder how many have played an MMO, in beta they didnt have chat links for gear and didnt seem to understand why the playerbase wanted them. We still dont have linkable weapons. It is small things like this that have me question their philosophy and if they even have a design vision.

 

The wishy washy stance on many issues and seemingly incompatible views such as no dungeon finder, which so far they are adamant against, as well as metrics such as threat meters and combat logs which they are adamantly against has completely thrown me for a loop.

 

So here I want to make things clear. If BioWare wants to have a game that even begins to compete with that other game, hell if it wants to compete with EQ2 or RIFT they are going to have to step up their raiding game and provide the tools for raiding. Right now it is a joke.

 

The reason is simple. If you dont have meaningful leaders in the game, guilds competing for world first kills, raids that are difficult enough to merit that kind of competition and the hardcore guilds that strive for such then they will not have masses of players aspiring to be anything within the game and the players will have little investment in their characters.

 

From the Guild Summit:

 

"Darth Hater: Q: Metrics for Operations? When will we get threat meters and combat logs? Gabe: We don't want to rely as much as meters, we want to rely more on visual in-game cues. We do want to have those metrics though. They're not in 1.2 though. Georg: We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you. With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed. We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game."

 

If you dont have threat meters we will have to create asinine thresh-holds such as three sunders. Three sunders is the standard in Classic WoW due to no threat meters.

 

Let me tell you how we did server first Onyxia kills. her knock-back did a threat reduction. So, we began by doing three sunders, that didn't work because of the threat reduction on here wing buffet. Then we realized what happened and we started doing a manual timer count. We would have an announcer tell the entire raid to stop dps after a wing buffet. then count to 7 and then tell the entire raid to begin DPS again. I do not think this type of extreme discipline and being told what to do is going to work hand in hand with the atmosphere that you are trying to develop with this game.

 

So let me continue on with the story of threat meters. There are combat logs in WoW, have been since beta. After Onyxia it was obvious we needed something. SO some clever folks whipped out their hardcore RDX addons, ya know the original boss mods that you had to learn to code and create yourself in game, and decided to go beat on a mob and then see how much damage was needed for that mob to change targets. They did this for every ability in game.....and discovered the threat tables, the inherent threat of abilities, and created the first threat meters. If forget the names but nowadays we have Omen and Skada in WoW. They are great albeit WoW removed the need for threat management when they buffed all tanks including hunter pets 5%.

 

So, you see, we are going to work it out, we require these addons, this knowledge. We are hardcore. Lets talk about the incoming combat logs.

 

You do realise that there are parsers out there such as ACT, which I have used for EVERY SINGLE MMO I HAVE PLAYED(eq2, RIFT, AOC, etc). You realize that you will be writing these player only logs to a text file and that we are used to uploading these combat logs to World of Raids or other similar offline parsers and that these offline parsers allow for multiple uploads of the same encounter so as to get a more accurate picture of what happened because there are some issues such as being too far away from other members to get what they do logged.

 

SO, we will simply have EVERY PLAYER in the raid upload their combat log for the raid to the offline parser, or email it to our guild gmail account and have the leaders upload all of them.

 

So, I just want you to know the lengths to which we will go to know the details that will make us world first/server first.

 

If you intend to have the current wow model of threat where it doesnt matter, fine no threat meters are great whatever. However, we will find a way to get those combat logs and we will mandate everyone upload their logs to the website etc.

 

You need to decide if this is ok for the reputation of SWTOR because like it or not the behavior of your players is directly related to what you allow them to do and the tools you give them.

 

Currently your raids are ezmode, wow raid finder quality. If you intend to have serious raids you will have to address these things.

 

If you are going to snub hard core raiders, then expect the mass exodus of hard core raiders and the decline of SWTOR as your playerbase as it reverts to sandbox mode with no aspirations other than playing the story, getting max level and logging off.

 

You have a lot riding on 1.2 and the subsequent Tier 2 raids.

 

Mists of Pandaria beta is expected to start right around that time as well.

 

Get it together, your lines have been drawn.

 

EDIT: "What if there never is any hard core raids or tools?"

 

Humanity loves to put people on a pedestal and cheer at them and strive to be them and then turn right around and cheer when they fall.

 

WolTK is when hard core raiders fell. We had already farmed Naxx for months in Classic and we refused to do the dumbed down version, so we started to leave, the masses have been cheering ever since. Fast forward to Cataclysm, 2 million subs lost. That is more than SWTOR even has. Naxx 2.0 is when the hardcore exodus began.

 

Be careful what you wish for. Soon there will be no difficulty at all in raids and no one willing to take up that cup.

 

Imagine if there was no NBA or NFL. Who would you aspire to be, who would you love to watch play, who would you love to criticize?

 

We are leaving MMOs en masse. You have shunned us over and over, we have moved on to other generes or stopped playing all together.

 

If you do not have something difficult, something that requires a community to defeat, there will be no community. There will simply be a Massively Multiplayer Single Player Online Role Playing Game.

 

That is what WoW is now. I can log on, speak to no one, queue for dungeons, queue for raids and get my purples.

 

Who needs friends?

 

Who needs a community?

 

This is the slipperly slope, WoW is at the bottom already and SWTOR has just begun the ride.

 

You do know the game becomes more EASY when you meters and etc? Do you want the game easier or harder? Convenience is not going to naturally increase difficulty...

 

Im not gonna sit here and say "Quit then" cause thats just silly...But honestly, do we really need these meters? NO we dont...People complain about stuff being to easy and etc, well do you think adding in things telling you exactly whats going on is gonna increase difficulty? Whatever happen to mystery and surprise?

 

You said it yourself with your first Onyxia kill...You didnt know there was a threat reduction so you tried several things until you figured it out...Thats challenge and strategy...Why take out all the work and fun of it if you have a meter pin pointing the exact problem or scenario right off the bat? It took you guys, as a team, to figure out what to do right...Thats the what its all about...

 

I never been a fan of meters honestly...I used them yes...But didnt really like em...Instead of sitting there and figuring out what the hell killed me, all I had to do was scroll up on the combat log and see it...No surprise or mystery when everything is in clear writing for you...I dunno...I just really dont feel meters are needed or a deadlyboss mod or something telling you exactly when to jump or interupt or whatever...Just play the game and pay attention and keep trying until your successful...

[Snibb]

My chars are in purples. Way to pay attention....

 

...I AM NOT A CASUAL PLAYER, CHAMP.

 

Uhh, casuals can get epic gear in this game without much trouble... therefore

 

while (game==SWTOR) {

Player.HasEpicGear != Player.IsHardcore;

}

 

champ.

[Blotter]

"You do know the game becomes more EASY when you meters and etc? Do you want the game easier or harder? "

 

What he wants is the game to be written and boss fights to be scripted in a way that makes it an absolute 100% necessity that you pay attention to these silly little meters the entire time you are raiding and engaged in boss fights...instead of enjoying the raid and the boss fight for the content and having to learn it the hard way through trial and error and wipes, etc. Why? Because doing it that way creates a gatekeeper effect that prevents alot of people from (a) wanting to even bother with such nitpicky unenjoyable crappy mechanics and (b) being able to actually complete such encounters in the first place. Why do they want this kind of thing? Simple: they want to be able to say "I did it and you didn't and you can't and you never will, so I'm better than you and have much better gear than you an ever obtain. Now excuse me whle I stand aroudn the hub location so everyone can admire my imaginary epeen."

 

What's bothering them isn't that the game doesn't offer detailed meters or require that you have them because the boss fights and raiding experience are purposefully built around those crutches...no no...what is bothering them is that the content is accessible to everyone willing to put in the time to try to complete it and, therefore, leaves people like the OP with an unfillable emptiness and void in their soul where their e-ego is starving like a tsunami victim. It all come back to the special snowflake thing. Some people find it through desperately needing customized appearance. Some find it through a nasty reputation in PvP,either by being really good or exploiting/hacking their way to pwnage. Some find it by being able to claim that only they, in all their glory, are skilled and elite enough to experience all of the game's contentand earn the best gear...despite everyone having paid for it the same as they did. Other people...the vast majority of us...were raised right and are emotionally well-adjusted adults who realize we're just playing a video game and have none of those issues.

 

Yeah..."hardcore" all right...you're all "superstars."

 

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter

[Blotter]

 

while (game==video game) {

player.hasstrangemaladjustedselfesteemproblem != player.ishardcore;

}

 

champ.

 

FIFY

 

 

(BTW, thanks for proving everything I just said in my last post...champ).

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter

[Aloro]

Uhh, casuals can get epic gear in this game without much trouble... therefore

 

while (game==SWTOR) {

Player.HasEpicGear != Player.IsHardcore;

}

 

champ.

 

If you read the post to which I was responding, he was saying I had no purple gear, because I'm a casual player. Neither of those two statements are true.

 

So, ok, thanks for sharing your views on the difficulty of encounters in this game. I don't disagree; most encounters here are pretty easy.

 

That still has nothing to do with whether I'm a casual player or not though.

[Rotny]

I'm pretty sure the game will be fine and have a very active player population with or without your so called "serious raiding" lol.

Clearly they aren't going the same route as wow with dmg meters, omen etc.

These are mostly just tools used to stroke your ego and make you feel better than everyone else. I'm glad they don't want it to go in that direction.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Rotny

[Xerel]

What is so complex about "if you need to share combat log info, upload it to your guild's account on a third party website so it can be compiled and a report made"? That's how alot of other programs have worked in the past. And how is it halfassed to provide all the info raiding guilds need in a manner that also lets people protect themselves frmo elitist pigs if they don't want peopel to see their data?

Yeah, that's not needlessly complex at all... Would you care to provide examples of these other programs that work in this manner? Keep in mind they'd have to require every player to submit to be accurate, so no pointing at wowwebstats or world of logs. I'll admit my experience with MMO's other than wow is limited.

 

Really? You know this for a fact or is this just an assumption that "easy solution 1 sounds just as simple as easy solution 2 on paper, but I really and truly have no idea what either of them would require in terms of coding complexity or risk of bugs, etc."?

Neither of these solutions are game-breakingly hard to implement, but you're right, I'm assuming their developers are competent, are you assuming they're not?

Yep. It doesn't even require a meter. Your own comment shows the hypocrisy of the pantwetter patrol. Blah blah blah it's too easy blah blah blah but I still need a meter because I'm "hardcore." Every time I see someone claim they're "hardcore" in this or any game, all I imagine is Molly Shannon playing Mary Katherine Gallagher self-proclaiming herself a "Superstar." It's basically the same thing.

Where did I ever say a meter is absolutely needed? Given your obvious talent for spotting straw-men i'm sure you recognize your own here. Believe it or not, some people like having meters for reasons other than the egocentric chest-thumping you seem obsessed with preventing. The way bioware is (grudgingly) going about implementing them gets in the way of many of those.

Either it's so helpful and necessary or it's not. You seem to be in a very self-contradictory mood.

I imagine a lot of people seem contradictory when everything you see is either black or white. Edited March 6, 2012 by Xerel

[Arkerus]

Well, SWTOR will lose those subscribers, sure. But one open question is: will Bioware gain or retain more players overall by choosing not to cater to the hardcore? We don't yet know the answer.

 

World of Warcraft has shown with Cataclysm that catering to casuals, with the dungeon finder, will get you a loss of 10% of your playerbase over the course of an expansion cycle.

 

Video games aren't really the source of that kind of hero-worship, by and large. I truly and honestly doubt that anyone except the other competitors ever cares if you get a world first something. Honestly, and meaning no offense, it is completely meaningless to me as an accomplishment and I in no sense put those people on pedestals. And I'm a gamer, even, playing the same games!

 

Here you say that NFL/NBA are hero worship but that, in your perspective which of course has to be broad and all inclusive MMOs dont have heros or worshippers

 

I don't aspire to be a professional athlete, actually, and never did. Since you went there, wouldn't it be a lot healthier for our society if we encouraged kids to form role models that actually provided something of substance to humanity besides mere escapism?

 

Here you say you dont worship them and set up that there actually could be MMO players that do not worship other MMO players or guilds. Of course that is unless we are living in your narrow view of the world where no one could possibly worship me or vodka or some other organization.

 

 

OK, if you say so. I feel pretty sure I've heard this line before though. Anyhow, take your ball and go home if you wish to; I'm still having fun here. Can I have your stuff?

 

Yea I know "we are just trying to throw the ball into the basket, we arent keeping score, if you wanna keep score go away because you might win". You inherently do not want my stuff your friends would laugh at you for having purples.

 

"My way to play MMOs is the One True Way. Cater to my playstyle or your entire game, nay your very industry, will crumble into dust and ruin! BEHOLD! THUS IS IT WRITTEN, THUS SHALL IT BE!"

 

Or, alternately, it's possible that this is simply a different type of game, intended to cater more to casual players, and doesn't spell the death knell for progression raiding overall.

 

This is where you are a hypocrite. You lambaste me for wanting something then proselytize your way of playing, the opposite of what I want, as what SWTOR intends. This showcases your small minded world view and beats down anyone that wishes to be competitive in any way. Casual is the ONLY way!

 

Raiding isn't the sole or main source of community in games, actually. I can understand how it might appear that way to a dedicated raider, but I encourage you to look into it a bit. You'll find that some people like to group up just to do normal questing. Some people like to chat with guild mates while doing their own thing. A lot of socialization can actually occur without anyone entering a flashpoint or operation.

 

Thanks for assuming I do not socialize in games. I know all of the above and participate in all of he above. Again you showcase your bigotry towards competitive players.

 

I am truly sorry I am a better player than you, that I like to invest my time into being the best I can be and that you discount that because you think socializing is more important than being successful.

 

 

You don't understand correlation and causation. You probably think the the decrease in sea piracy has created an increase in global temperatures.

[Syylara]

Death and Taxes are here for 1.2 so is Ensidia. We are/were Nephilum the splinter of DNT after the BC split, we intend to compete........that is of course if the raids are worth competing in.

 

The overwhelmingly vast majority of players have never heard of these groups (Besides D&T I don't know any of them, either) nor do they care.

 

You are not remotely as important as you think you are.

[Samborino]

EXACTLY. They are not difficult enough to merit any addons or logs.

 

If they get serious they will need to have such tools. If they do not we will figure it out. That is the whole point of my post.

 

Do you want the reputation of a having our guild, leader a former Ranger instructor, or some similar raid leader barking orders at your raid as to when to dps and when to stop dps because there is no threat meter in game? That is old school hardcore QQ causing casual eating mentality.

 

I do not think they want that reputation. THUS they will have to provide us with the tools. GIMPED tools will only make the work more difficult.

 

At the moment I think the developers are in over their heads.

 

If any developer is reading this and wants to know how other WOW systems developed over time I am more than willing to talk to you.

 

Basically as posted with the OP, there is only one outcome and you need to know what it is going to be and decide if that is ok for the reputation of SWTOR, for the mental health of the playerbase and the benefit of the community at large, or if one way is going to be more divisive than another.

 

Im pretty sure they want it, i just think because they didnt implement addons into the game to begin with it will be a patch or 2 after 1.2 before we see them. In the Guild Summit they were talking about how much testing and coding needs to be done to make sure it wont mess up the current UI etc.

 

They should have had it implemented at launch but they didnt, so now they have to start working on it and work out all the kinks (hopefully) a parsable combat log is a start, I guess we will just have to wait and see what the future brings. I think in 6 months time it is very realistic to expect either tools like DPS and threat meters developed by BW OR Community UI Addons.

 

Honestly I dont know if i would consider myself a hardcore raider maybe somewhere in the middle of casual and Hardcore , I would be perfectly happy with DPS Meters and possibly threat meters developed by BW I never really used to many other tools for WOW and they already are releasing a very customizable UI. I think its just as likely that BW will develop these tools themselves rather than having a huge amount of community addons to monitor etc.

[va_wanderer]

So here I want to make things clear. If BioWare wants to have a game that even begins to compete with that other game, hell if it wants to compete with EQ2 or RIFT they are going to have to step up their raiding game and provide the tools for raiding. Right now it is a joke.

 

Have you considered the simple fact that anyone who competed with WoW has failed?

 

You don't beat Blizzard at their own game. You make your own. That's the lesson that hasn't stuck with a legion of WoW clones, all of which have ended up F2P's.

 

Barely a third of the level 50's in this game have even -raided once-, you realize. You're in the minority here. And good frickin' riddance to "content" that ends up being obsessed over by "50 DKP MINUS!" types and barely if ever used by most of the playerbase.

 

And good riddance to micromanaged builds that guilds demanded and content required. I want to play the game, not sit there having to clear trash mobs for the umpteenth time while the guild gives itself a collective migraine with the newest, most awesomest content while loopy guys pore over logs and treat your latest raid as being as life-sustaining as being able to keep your job. MMO's should not become rocket science. If I wanted rocket science, I'd work at Virgin Galactic. It'd be more entertainment in that genre.

 

Raiders can never be appeased. I came to play, not to be lorded over by "hardcores" who only demand ever more arcane and "elite" content and divert developers into constant micromanagement and shifts in characters to try to calm the constant screaming of "OP" and "faceroll class" or "FIX MY NERF". You waste my time and you slow down my content, my bug fixes, my game and the game of the vast majority of the server population.

 

Bioware should just find some big ol' "raid" mobs and drop them into Ilum, so I can enjoy shooting up an Empire raid on a Republic super-boss and taste the sweet tears of suffering that come from knowing the cycle that started with Fires of Heaven is finally, finally broken and that the raider has finally lost their grip on at least one decent MMORPG.

[va_wanderer]

Death and Taxes are here for 1.2 so is Ensidia. We are/were Nephilum the splinter of DNT after the BC split, we intend to compete........that is of course if the raids are worth competing in.

 

I am not giving an ultimatum I have simply spoken to many of these people and SWTOR basically has Tier 2 to show us that this is worth our time and effort, that it IS hardcore, that NIGHTMARE is actually a nightmare.

 

If it isnt, we will be in MoP beta.

 

I've never heard of you, and frankly neither has virtually anyone else outside your "hardcore" community.

 

Is this some kind of hipster guild?

[DorkTrooper]

So, I just want you to know the lengths to which we will go to know the details that will make us world first/server first.

 

Doesn't that make it more challenging and thus more fulfilling for you?