Metrics, Serious Raiding, SWTOR Has None

[cbowsin]

Hardcore raiding never required 80 hours per week to do.

 

Hate to break it to you but hardcore raiders were just better at the game than you. With your attitude I wouldn't be suprised if you failed at everything in life.

 

Of course not, I was being dramatic to show that raiding is easy in every mmo, but the ones you want it to be like are nothing more than timesinks. He who has the most time to sink can do 'hardcore raiding'. What I don't understand is why the insults? U mad bro? Or are you now just realizing your only accomplishment in life was some virtual dungeon in a video game.

[Blotter]

The utter stupidity of paying monthly for a game you dont play would like a word with you.

 

Did I say they stopped playing? No. Just that they may have simply cut down on hours, which would create a similar drop in concurrent logins. The straw man you just created and knocked down would like a word with you.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter

[Xanikk]

Again, of the 38% at 50 that have done Ops - what percentage are this fabled hard core that are "leaving in droves'?

 

Sorry I'm not pyschic. Does it really suprise you that server populations are most likely dropping?

 

There is no healthy end-game when you can beat the content in 1 night and get decked out in 1 week. People will subscribe and try alts but with no engaging end-game they will unsubscribe.

 

Rolling alt after alt does not keep people subscribed. Innovative and non repetitive content does. Bioware has shown us they aren't interested in this however with the legacy system. Let's all roll alts for solo content! Is that supposed to keep us interested in an MMORPG? lulz.

[Blotter]

Don't think we are talking about a Deadly Boss Mod add-on here, that basically plays the game for you. Just a good way to evaluated what the **** is going on... damage in/damage out etc...

 

You'll have it. Those in guilds who raid "seriously" can make it mandatory that everyone share their log AFTER the raid. You can then take a dump on whoever was in the raid with low dps or wahtever...throw poo all you want...or thump your chests and claim you're the kind of dps...nobody cares if the boss went down. BW has made a design decision that they want you to play the game when in the game and only do the accounting nonsense when not in the game. PLAY. THE. GAME. What's hard to understand about that? Want to crunch numbers and figure out what went wrong and revise your strategy? You'll be perfectly able to do so, just not on the fly so it makes the whole thing even easier for you. Again...PLAY THE GAME. The game is not Massive Multi-accountant Online Algebra Wars. If that's what you want it to be, I feel very sad for your inability to enjoy it and enjoy the challenge of learning by trial and error the way a game should be....all because you apparently value your epeens above actually enjoying playing and are so afraid that you might be incapable of learning how to beat raid bosses without the crutches that this is a big issue for you. I'm not afraid.

 

y u fraid bros?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter

[Vorphalack]

Did I say they stopped playing? No. Just that they may have simply cut down on hours, which would create a similar drop in concurrent logins. The straw man you just created and knocked down would like a word with you.

 

So which is worse.....

 

My observation that guild activity is down (becasue I know people have left), general activity is way down (and I know a good chunk of people on my server have quit), pvp activity is down (and again I know a good chunk of players that quit), and then assuming that overall subscriber numbers are down (becasue they are)?

 

Or your assumption, that all these people that have mysteriously vanished from every server are just ''taking it easy''?

 

Reality and common sense need a long, hard talk with you.

[Dejoblue]

You'll have it. Those in guilds who raid "seriously" can make it mandatory that everyone share their log AFTER the raid. You can then take a dump on whoever was in the raid with low dps or wahtever...throw poo all you want...or thump your chests and claim you're the kind of dps...nobody cares if the boss went down. BW has made a design decision that they want you to play the game when in the game and only do the accounting nonsense when not in the game. PLAY. THE. GAME. What's hard to understand about that? Want to crunch numbers and figure out what went wrong and revise your strategy? You'll be perfectly able to do so, just not on the fly so it makes the whole thing even easier for you. Again...PLAY THE GAME. The game is not Massive Multi-accountant Online Algebra Wars. If that's what you want it to be, I feel very sad for your inability to enjoy it and enjoy the challenge of learning by trial and error the way a game should be....all because you apparently value your epeens above actually enjoying playing and are so afraid that you might be incapable of learning how to beat raid bosses without the crutches that this is a big issue for you. I'm not afraid.

 

y u fraid bros?

 

You realize we can have everyone log out after each attempt and upload their parses.

 

The more I think about it, the more constraints there are the more I want I want them to implement this. It is a great opportunity to stop the raid and look over EVERYTHING with a fine tooth comb. I mean if we are going to have to stop to do this anyway why not look at it all.

 

SO, community, do you want raid leaders to stop the raid and do this or do you want us to have instant meters we can review, solve the problems within a couple of minutes and move on? OR shall we go through all of this none-sense and make sure that since we are having to waste this time that everyone is up to par.

 

let me tell you if we have to do this time will be even more valuable and if you suck you WILL be removed IMMEDIATELY.

 

This only makes things worse for the bads. Stopping the whole raid to see who messed up...I CANT WAIT!

[paladinjb]

The falling subscriber numbers of WoW and TOR would like a word with you.

 

Wow has been successful for a long time by catering to the casuals. Its decline whether perceived or actual is only natural after being around for so long. This game has more issues than just the difficulty of raiding though. There are many reasons why people quit any game, and for you to speak for everyone seems pretty arrogant.

 

Even though there is more money to be made by catering to casuals, who make up the largest percentage of players, I do believe that there has to be a balance. If the game is completely easy, then even casuals will not feel a sense of accomplishment upon winning. Content is completed too fast, and Bioware shoots themselves in the foot by having to come out with content at a frantic pace to keep everyone from becoming bored.

 

This game needs more difficult encounters, especially in hard mode and nightmare. TBH, I think both terms are a joke Very few mechanics actually change with difficulty, and it's just basically a gear check if anything to beat enrage timers. The whole point of being able to change difficulty is catering to both casuals and hardcore raiders.

 

So I probably agree with some of the things you have said, but honestly that need to take a long hard talk crap is pretty stupid.

[Gerandar]

I can understand the need/want for LFG but addons are training wheels for raids and are not needed.

[Arkerus]

No public meters for the ragers to cling to? Awesome.

 

Did the boss die? Good. You all did your job.

[Xneco]

You'll have it. Those in guilds who raid "seriously" can make it mandatory that everyone share their log AFTER the raid. You can then take a dump on whoever was in the raid with low dps or wahtever...throw poo all you want...or thump your chests and claim you're the kind of dps...nobody cares if the boss went down. BW has made a design decision that they want you to play the game when in the game and only do the accounting nonsense when not in the game. PLAY. THE. GAME. What's hard to understand about that? Want to crunch numbers and figure out what went wrong and revise your strategy? You'll be perfectly able to do so, just not on the fly so it makes the whole thing even easier for you. Again...PLAY THE GAME. The game is not Massive Multi-accountant Online Algebra Wars. If that's what you want it to be, I feel very sad for your inability to enjoy it and enjoy the challenge of learning by trial and error the way a game should be....all because you apparently value your epeens above actually enjoying playing and are so afraid that you might be incapable of learning how to beat raid bosses without the crutches that this is a big issue for you. I'm not afraid.

 

y u fraid bros?

 

keep trolling bro... keep trolling...

[Blotter]

So which is worse.....

 

My observation that guild activity is down (becasue I know people have left), general activity is way down (and I know a good chunk of people on my server have quit), pvp activity is down (and again I know a good chunk of players that quit), and then assuming that overall subscriber numbers are down (becasue they are)?

 

Or your assumption, that all these people that have mysteriously vanished from every server are just ''taking it easy''?

 

Reality and common sense need a long, hard talk with you.

 

Anecdotes != data. I personally haven't seen that. My guild is fine and isn't seeing people quit left and right. Activity is up amonst us and we've added numerous players in the past 2 weeks. This with us having quite a few BMs and people who lpay many hours per week. PvP has been fairly steady on the server in terms of queue times, with some expected fluctuation here and there depending on time or day of the week, as have numbers in terms of people on the fleet at any given time.

 

Moreover, unlike you, I wasn't making an assumption either. I, unlike you, was not insisting that any particular explanation had to be the right one. I was pointing out that there are reasonable explanations for a drop in concurrent login activity that don't include "well, everyone must be quitting." I'm sorry your personal experience has been to see some people just up and leave the game. Lord know that if the maturity level on these forums is any indication...what with myriad self-entitled "I want it now now now" imaptient brats swarming everywwhere...it's not suprising that some people might be leaving. That hasn't been my experience though. And it says nothing about how many people might be joining either.

[RycheMykola]

Can someone post a cliff notes version of the OP's post?

 

I just got crit by a wall of text and died.

[Gerandar]

I will just edit my combot log file to make me look like a boss. so I can get carried by guilds and laugh at your "work around"

[Dejoblue]

No public meters for the ragers to cling to? Awesome.

 

Did the boss die? Good. You all did your job.

 

Right now in WOW and in RIFT meters are different from player to player. it depends where you were, the distance between players as to whetehr you got them included in your parse.

 

As for NO PUBLIC METERS. We are going to make you upload your meters, your logs, and not only will they be public there will only be one perspective, yours.

 

Thes are going to be absolutely public and the defacto accurate meters since there is only one source.

 

better get your excuse thesaurus out because BioWare is going to have the numbers right there in black and white and not even in context with the rest of the raid.

 

Players will be singled out one by one and not included in the entire group as an overview. This is going to make EVERYONE look worse than they are. Out of context raid parses, just what the casuals need to cry over.

 

And if you refuse to upload your logs, yet another roadblock to casuals or those with this philosophy.

 

This is just divisive and detrimental to the community.

[Blotter]

keep trolling bro... keep trolling...

 

You've got no counterargument, so just rely on callnig me a troll? How droll. Everyone knows the dps meters are nothing but a crutch...or "training wheels" as someone above put it haha. Not a single person has been able to argue otherwise and, in fact, their arguments have essentiallky been "training wheels means we're hardcore cuz it means we're concerned with being first or with not having wipes."

 

Sorry,but "hardcore" means "you did it the hard way...by trial and error...and you actually learned and earned it."

 

It doesn't mean "I'm so concerned with being first and with shining my epeen that I'll use whatever crutches and training wheels I can find so I can have the bragging rights I'm so obsessed with having."

[Gerandar]

Players will be singled out one by one and not included in the entire group as an overview. This is going to make EVERYONE look worse than they are. Out of context raid parses, just what the casuals need to cry over.

 

*Edit Combat Log File, Upload* Now I did the most DPS/heals on the fight and you suck

[Vincynt]

There's more money in letting everyone win than forcing people to compete and better themselves. That's the bottom line.

The falling subscriber numbers of WoW and TOR would like a word with you.

 

Paladinjb has a point Vorphalack, even with "falling subscriptions" of WoW (I couldn't overly comment on the TOR part since there is no solid data but one could make the assumption that they have since I would think MOST MMO's go thru a "golden period" at release where everyone and their grandma try's it before the population stabalizes) because of their "everyone win's" mentality they're making FAR more money then the previous "Hard Mode" MMO's.

 

Yeah I can only speak for myself but I notice my server's population is dropping. People are getting bored with the game.

 

The amount of focus they are putting on solo friendly content and immediate gratification can only harm this game in the long run. They will not build long time subscribers on this model.

 

My play time has dropped off dramatically but it did with every MMO I ever played. I always started big, tons of hours around launch, played and got to level, then bam. The novelty of it kinda wears off (in my case this isn't specific to SWTOR, it's every MMO I've ever played, and every game really for that matter) and I go back to my real life more and more. Beers and wings with the guys while watching the hockey game suddely become more pressing then "Nah, I'm going to hit lvl 45 tonight!". Not to mention other games come out I'd like to play. It's funny how life swings back and forth like that.

 

I feel the opposite of you, I think in the long run the solo friendly content and immediate gratification will benefit SWTOR not hurt it. It will hurt it in so much as the people who want things to be rare and want Op's to be hard will be pushed away for something new but there is probably enough of the casual market to sustain SWTOR for some time to come.

 

That all being said I do really wish the game was harder, and I do really hope the new Op's and FP's they introduce are significantly more difficult then the current content. I was hoping Op's would have taken 6 months for raiding guilds to beat, not 6 weeks.

[Drewser]

Right now in WOW and in RIFT meters are different from player to player. it depends where you were, the distance between players as to whetehr you got them included in your parse.

 

As for NO PUBLIC METERS. We are going to make you upload your meters, your logs, and not only will they be public there will only be one perspective, yours.

 

Thes are going to be absolutely public and the defacto accurate meters since there is only one source.

 

\

 

You are not going to make me do anything.

 

Our guild will use logs to help each other.

[Ayabe]

You realize we can have everyone log out after each attempt and upload their parses.

 

The more I think about it, the more constraints there are the more I want I want them to implement this. It is a great opportunity to stop the raid and look over EVERYTHING with a fine tooth comb. I mean if we are going to have to stop to do this anyway why not look at it all.

 

SO, community, do you want raid leaders to stop the raid and do this or do you want us to have instant meters we can review, solve the problems within a couple of minutes and move on? OR shall we go through all of this none-sense and make sure that since we are having to waste this time that everyone is up to par.

 

let me tell you if we have to do this time will be even more valuable and if you suck you WILL be removed IMMEDIATELY.

 

This only makes things worse for the bads. Stopping the whole raid to see who messed up...I CANT WAIT!

 

For players like you, it's all about finding someone to blame other than yourself.

 

What you don't understand is that there are a large portion of the population who don't care about anything you are talking about and really don't want to play with people like you. It's not because we're "bads" or "carebears" it's because people like you drain all the fun out what is supposed to be a game. Joke is on you guy - we can clear the same content without being ******es about it.

 

Your assumption that your 1-2-3 button mashing is so superior to anyone else's 1-2-3 button mashing is probably the saddest part of all of this. Virtually everyone is using the same or similar rotations and many are increasingly being pigeon-holed into certain builds. So aside from players who are paying attention and those that aren't, there isn't much skill difference involved.

 

This is as gently as I can put it for you and your ego - you are not as special as you think you are.

[Aloro]

SO, community, do you want raid leaders to stop the raid and do this or do you want us to have instant meters we can review, solve the problems within a couple of minutes and move on?

 

Let's be realistic here. While, yes, some raid leaders might do precisely what you proposed, and stop the raid completely to have everyone submit their logs... those kinds of people aren't the norm, and aren't really... how shall I put this... desirable. You raised the example because it was plain to you that people wouldn't enjoy this kind of drama. I agree. It's simply not likely. But hey, if some people want to do that, more power to them. I won't be playing with them, and from the sounds of it you won't either.

 

Frankly, I'm very much of the camp that would prefer complete combat logs be available so we can minmax. I'm a theorycrafter, and I'm looking forward to figuring everything out for myself. Having said that, I do not need and generally do not appreciate in-game metrics, because they change the experience of the game. I'd far rather concentrate on the GAME while I'm playing, and take time before and after to fine-tune my builds and rotations and such. I don't want or need a threat meter, thanks; I can tank just fine without one. I don't want or need to know what everyone's DPS is while I'm in a raid, either. If we fail, then yes, it can be helpful afterwards to analyze exactly what happened, but in the moment, I'd rather we try to raid successfully, which means everyone should perform the roles they've already learned.

 

So, from my perpective, the solution BW is proposing works very well. It allows me the information I need (hopefully with enough granularity of detail) without interfering in my actual enjoyment of the game itself. I am eager to have the metrics, but I don't want to watch them instead of playing; after is fine. I am all in favor of this solution.

[Dejoblue]

*Edit Combat Log File, Upload* Now I did the most DPS/heals on the fight and you suck

 

Yea we wont notice.

 

You have 30 seconds to go through 2000 lines of combat log to make sensible changes. And then upload it. Make sure it matches when the AOE hits everyone else and you have none or when I pull out my calculator to check your DPS. Do you think we blindly accept everything and don't notice anomalies? Anomalies are what we are looking for.

 

Good luck with that.

[Dejoblue]

You are not going to make me do anything.

 

Our guild will use logs to help each other.

 

and the very next line: "And if you refuse to upload your logs, yet another roadblock to casuals or those with this philosophy."

 

Logs are not even in and you are already crying about being made to do something. This is the divisiveness I was talking about.

 

DONT do it, you wont get to raid with me. it is FINE, it is OK.

[Blotter]

Right now in WOW and in RIFT meters are different from player to player. it depends where you were, the distance between players as to whetehr you got them included in your parse.

 

As for NO PUBLIC METERS. We are going to make you upload your meters, your logs, and not only will they be public there will only be one perspective, yours.

 

Thes are going to be absolutely public and the defacto accurate meters since there is only one source.

 

better get your excuse thesaurus out because BioWare is going to have the numbers right there in black and white and not even in context with the rest of the raid.

 

Players will be singled out one by one and not included in the entire group as an overview. This is going to make EVERYONE look worse than they are. Out of context raid parses, just what the casuals need to cry over.

 

And if you refuse to upload your logs, yet another roadblock to casuals or those with this philosophy.

 

This is just divisive and detrimental to the community.

 

What is so hard about understanding that the 3rd party site you upload your data to will compile your data with everyone else's?

 

The only thing divisive and detrimental is people pitching an infantil tantrum that BW won't let them have in-game real-time on-the-fly dps meters and have made a design decision to (a) compromise on dps meters for the sake of people who didn't want to deal with elitist jerks and (b) force you to play the game while in the raid and do your number crunching and strategy planning outside of it instead of relying on it as a crutch. Waaah. Threatening to "out" people on the internet with their combat log data is absurd and just another facet of the temper tantrum being thrown by people who can't accept compromise, and are so infantile and immature about a silly video game that they're willing to threaten to destroy it and the community it is trying to foster simply because it's not being developed precisely how they feel they are entitled to have it developed. Grow up.

 

Wanna know what's really going to happen? The opopsite of what you predict. People who want nothing to do with people telling them they are "baddies" or demanding they upload their logs before getting in a pug...they'll enjoy playing amongst themselves while the people who want to be jerks all the time get to enjoy each others' company. If people find a nice group of guildies they trust and get along with, theymight share with them.

 

But as far as the 3rd party site goes...that will most definitely require a login to look at your data, so what makes you think it can even be used as you threaten?

[Kindara]

Funny how raids existed before WoW and were ridiculously hard and required 100s of players and they never needed baby tools. If you know what youre doing and you trust your guild then you shouldn't have a problem. Pugs no matter what are unpredictable if people refuse to their job its pretty obvious and those people can get a group kick you know.

 

YOu dont need fancy combat meters to see who sucks its usually obvious right away.

 

There's nothing hardcore about addons. What makes you hardcore now is just whether your willing to subject yourself to insane schedules and crappy rules in a guild that has no life.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Kindara

[Blotter]

"SO, community, do you want raid leaders to stop the raid and do this or do you want us to have instant meters we can review, solve the problems within a couple of minutes and move on?"

 

Watch how fast that raid leader's guild falls apart or, at the very least, demoteshim from raid leader haha. Seriously. There's no slippery slope here. Anyone who demanded that would get boo'd off of vent and lose guild members in a heartbeat.

 

Solving the problems does not require a dps meter or combat log. It simply doesn't. Creative thinking and problem solvnig are required, not a peak behind the 4th wall into the game's mechanics in real time.