Metrics, Serious Raiding, SWTOR Has None

[Dejoblue]

lol dude. They already lost like all the raiding guild. on the biggest server in game "the swiftsure" It started out with 14 guilds raiding ..now it's down to 2. Even those 2 are losing members. This game HAS failed. The only reason to play this game anymore is friends. Rank 4th guild world btw. la la good bye

 

This is why I am fighting bro. It is get serious raiding in SWTOR or back to the WoW merry go round. And we do not wanna be on the Panda Express.

[wifeaggro]

I wonder just how many of the developers have actually raided seriously in an MMO. Hell I wonder how many have played an MMO, in beta they didnt have chat links for gear and didnt seem to understand why the playerbase wanted them. We still dont have linkable weapons. It is small things like this that have me question their philosophy and if they even have a design vision.

 

The wishy washy stance on many issues and seemingly incompatible views such as no dungeon finder, which so far they are adamant against, as well as metrics such as threat meters and combat logs which they are adamantly against has completely thrown me for a loop.

 

So here I want to make things clear. If BioWare wants to have a game that even begins to compete with that other game, hell if it wants to compete with EQ2 or RIFT they are going to have to step up their raiding game and provide the tools for raiding. Right now it is a joke.

 

The reason is simple. If you dont have meaningful leaders in the game, guilds competing for world first kills, raids that are difficult enough to merit that kind of competition and the hardcore guilds that strive for such then they will not have masses of players aspiring to be anything within the game and the players will have little investment in their characters.

 

From the Guild Summit:

 

"Darth Hater: Q: Metrics for Operations? When will we get threat meters and combat logs? Gabe: We don't want to rely as much as meters, we want to rely more on visual in-game cues. We do want to have those metrics though. They're not in 1.2 though. Georg: We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you. With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed. We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game."

 

If you dont have threat meters we will have to create asinine thresh-holds such as three sunders. Three sunders is the standard in Classic WoW due to no threat meters.

 

Let me tell you how we did server first Onyxia kills. her knock-back did a threat reduction. So, we began by doing three sunders, that didn't work because of the threat reduction on here wing buffet. Then we realized what happened and we started doing a manual timer count. We would have an announcer tell the entire raid to stop dps after a wing buffet. then count to 7 and then tell the entire raid to begin DPS again. I do not think this type of extreme discipline and being told what to do is going to work hand in hand with the atmosphere that you are trying to develop with this game.

 

So let me continue on with the story of threat meters. There are combat logs in WoW, have been since beta. After Onyxia it was obvious we needed something. SO some clever folks whipped out their hardcore RDX addons, ya know the original boss mods that you had to learn to code and create yourself in game, and decided to go beat on a mob and then see how much damage was needed for that mob to change targets. They did this for every ability in game.....and discovered the threat tables, the inherent threat of abilities, and created the first threat meters. If forget the names but nowadays we have Omen and Skada in WoW. They are great albeit WoW removed the need for threat management when they buffed all tanks including hunter pets 5%.

 

So, you see, we are going to work it out, we require these addons, this knowledge. We are hardcore. Lets talk about the incoming combat logs.

 

You do realise that there are parsers out there such as ACT, which I have used for EVERY SINGLE MMO I HAVE PLAYED(eq2, RIFT, AOC, etc). You realize that you will be writing these player only logs to a text file and that we are used to uploading these combat logs to World of Raids or other similar offline parsers and that these offline parsers allow for multiple uploads of the same encounter so as to get a more accurate picture of what happened because there are some issues such as being too far away from other members to get what they do logged.

 

SO, we will simply have EVERY PLAYER in the raid upload their combat log for the raid to the offline parser, or email it to our guild gmail account and have the leaders upload all of them.

 

So, I just want you to know the lengths to which we will go to know the details that will make us world first/server first.

 

If you intend to have the current wow model of threat where it doesnt matter, fine no threat meters are great whatever. However, we will find a way to get those combat logs and we will mandate everyone upload their logs to the website etc.

 

You need to decide if this is ok for the reputation of SWTOR because like it or not the behavior of your players is directly related to what you allow them to do and the tools you give them.

 

Currently your raids are ezmode, wow raid finder quality. If you intend to have serious raids you will have to address these things.

 

If you are going to snub hard core raiders, then expect the mass exodus of hard core raiders and the decline of SWTOR as your playerbase as it reverts to sandbox mode with no aspirations other than playing the story, getting max level and logging off.

 

You have a lot riding on 1.2 and the subsequent Tier 2 raids.

 

Mists of Pandaria beta is expected to start right around that time as well.

 

Get it together, your lines have been drawn.

 

EDIT: "What if there never is any hard core raids or tools?"

 

Humanity loves to put people on a pedestal and cheer at them and strive to be them and then turn right around and cheer when they fall.

 

WolTK is when hard core raiders fell. We had already farmed Naxx for months in Classic and we refused to do the dumbed down version, so we started to leave, the masses have been cheering ever since. Fast forward to Cataclysm, 2 million subs lost. That is more than SWTOR even has. Naxx 2.0 is when the hardcore exodus began.

 

Be careful what you wish for. Soon there will be no difficulty at all in raids and no one willing to take up that cup.

 

Imagine if there was no NBA or NFL. Who would you aspire to be, who would you love to watch play, who would you love to criticize?

 

We are leaving MMOs en masse. You have shunned us over and over, we have moved on to other generes or stopped playing all together.

 

If you do not have something difficult, something that requires a community to defeat, there will be no community. There will simply be a Massively Multiplayer Single Player Online Role Playing Game.

 

That is what WoW is now. I can log on, speak to no one, queue for dungeons, queue for raids and get my purples.

 

Who needs friends?

 

Who needs a community?

 

This is the slipperly slope, WoW is at the bottom already and SWTOR has just begun the ride.

 

the raid content is so damn simple in this game we dont even need parser's or Advanced combat tracker. every single fight is ok we have 6 minutes to kill it dump on it now LOS now dump now los. its pretty sad.

[cbowsin]

The simple fact that Damian Schubert hadn't realised that the game doesn't have a "ready check" facility kinda shows how sometimes devs can lose touch with the players needs.

 

How is that a need? Raid leader says "ready?" Then seven people respond with; "y", "rdy", "yes", or "let's do this!" Then fight commences. Or spoken if using vent. I know 'hardcore raiding' is easy, but didn't realize you guys required it to be this easy.

 

Also, the 'Ready Check' was first created by players via api scripting, yet the community here opposes api scripting because they think it makes the game too easy. So if you really want to point figures, start with the community and not the devs. Same thing with Damage, Agro, Heal meters, Quick access heal functionatily. Everything you raiders keep asking for were all originally written by players. Which everyone seems to want, but then every thread I read regarding scripting functionality everyone seems to hate it and not want it. Ironic, don't you think?

[RealAeiouy]

I don't consider you a "serious raider" or a "hardcore" player if you feel you need a dps meter and threat meter in order to complete content. Trial and error and learn it the hard way or you are not, by definition, "hardcore." Rather, you are a player who needs to rely on a crutch. Period.

 

Did Super Mario Brothers have jumping timers or a buzzer that went off when you superspeed ran really fast and needed a cue to hit the jump button in time? No. You died. You died repeatedly until you learned it. You died repeatedly until you got frustrated sometimes. It shouldn't be any different in this or any other game if you truly want to EARN bragging rights for having completed content.

 

Only players whose skills are crippled need crutches.

 

 

It is always amusing when people who claim they are hardcore want a game seriously dumbed down. You can't get more dumbed down than a threat meter.

[Aloro]

Your lack of tolerance for the smallest percentage of players getting what they want is astounding, the hypocrisy is mind boggling.

 

What lack of tolerance do you believe you've perceived in me? I think you're badly misunderstanding me. I'm curious to know, as well, what hypocrisy you believe you've perceived in my posts. You essentially just called me an intolerant hypocrite without in any way supporting your accusations, which is to say the least impolite. If you want to insult someone, put some effort into it.

 

Oh, since you've apparently missed this point, although I've stated it repeatedly: I'm not a casual player. I'm a minmaxer. I just don't agree with pretty much any of your arguments here.

 

For no hero worship in MMOs the masses certainly LOVE beating down the hard core gamers that simply want their own mode to be difficult. It is called NIGHTMARE for crying out loud and there are TWO OTHER MODES Story and Hard...

 

Holy Strained Tangent, Batman! You still haven't even begun to support your claim that "the masses" have some sort of hero-worship for people making world or server firsts in video games. Now you seem to be arguing that this hero-worship must exist because some people don't agree with some views you posted in a thread on the forums. Um, what?

 

I cant believe how selfish the casuals really are.

 

Is it selfish to say, "Hey, I don't enjoy the game the way it is, and want it to change to better suit my playstyle"? That's what you're saying here, it does sound selfish. You're after all asking for the game to change, because you believe YOUR playstyle is more important and more valuable than others' playstyles. You think the wellbeing of the game depends on people like you, because you feel you're better and more important and others worship you from afar. Well, not you specifically, but people like you.

[OldBenSmokin]

You're wasting your time. They've already made it obvious they're gambling on the casual crowd. Terrible choice, IMO, but it's not going to change. I don't think they have the dev experience to change it if they wanted to.

 

It's over. Man up, move on.

[Aloro]

There is difference between making things easier and seeing that the boss targets the tank with the second highest threat, ala patchwerk 2.0 sure you can go back to 1.0 where the tank with the highest HP is targetted.

 

There is a difference between making things easier and being able to get out yer calculator and calculating that you need to pull X amount of DPS in 5 minutes ala Festergut and seeing if the raid is even near that threshold. Instead we will simply beat our head against the wall and instead of saying hey player x is below DPS that we need we will have to chalk it up to a gear check and have no idea if we are even close or that hey we could swap out that player and kill Festergut tonight.

 

That is the difference, but you keep telling yourself that it is all about crutches.

 

"Knowledge and information is a crutch!"

 

You're missing my point, still.

 

These tools exist to make things easier. They have no other purpose to exist. If they did not make things easier, nobody would use them. You're merely quibbling when you talk about how much easier each version of each tool makes things.

 

My point was that you're contradicting yourself to ask for tools that only make things easier, while complaining that you want more challenge.

 

And, again, you keep falling back on the enrage timers as a justification for these tools. Why not just ask for different boss mechanics? That's still a change, and could still result in what you want (more challenge), without requiring the tools at all.

 

You seem really hung up on doing things the way WoW did them.

[Dejoblue]

What lack of tolerance do you believe you've perceived in me? I think you're badly misunderstanding me. I'm curious to know, as well, what hypocrisy you believe you've perceived in my posts. You essentially just called me an intolerant hypocrite without in any way supporting your accusations, which is to say the least impolite. If you want to insult someone, put some effort into it.

 

Oh, since you've apparently missed this point, although I've stated it repeatedly: I'm not a casual player. I'm a minmaxer. I just don't agree with pretty much any of your arguments here.

 

 

 

Holy Strained Tangent, Batman! You still haven't even begun to support your claim that "the masses" have some sort of hero-worship for people making world or server firsts in video games. Now you seem to be arguing that this hero-worship must exist because some people don't agree with some views you posted in a thread on the forums. Um, what?

 

 

 

Is it selfish to say, "Hey, I don't enjoy the game the way it is, and want it to change to better suit my playstyle"? That's what you're saying here, it does sound selfish. You're after all asking for the game to change, because you believe YOUR playstyle is more important and more valuable than others' playstyles. You think the wellbeing of the game depends on people like you, because you feel you're better and more important and others worship you from afar. Well, not you specifically, but people like you.

 

You claim NFL and NBA are hero worship and then go on to say that you dont like sports and lots of people dont worship them and completely negate your stance. There ARE players out there that hero worship death and taxes, vodka, blood legion etc. etc. What do you want a list of worshippers? lol

 

You are asking to make Nightmare mode another easy mode that everyone can do with fairies and sparkles. I stand by my sentiment that if it says hard or night mare it should be difficult. You have story mode, what more do you want? Barry White reads bedtime stories mode?

[Dejoblue]

You're missing my point, still.

 

These tools exist to make things easier. They have no other purpose to exist. If they did not make things easier, nobody would use them. You're merely quibbling when you talk about how much easier each version of each tool makes things.

 

My point was that you're contradicting yourself to ask for tools that only make things easier, while complaining that you want more challenge.

 

And, again, you keep falling back on the enrage timers as a justification for these tools. Why not just ask for different boss mechanics? That's still a change, and could still result in what you want (more challenge), without requiring the tools at all.

 

You seem really hung up on doing things the way WoW did them.

 

I didn't miss your point. You think knowledge and information is a crutch. You prefer going in blind. SO DO I. IF and ONLY if it does not hinder the difficulty and diversity of encounters that BioWare can and will create.

 

I do not know how to make myself more clear. I am arguing FOR the casuals. You are going to scream bloody murder if there are encounters you do not understand and cannot do. I am laying out the possibilities.

 

BRING IT ON.

 

Bring On threat based encounters, we will do it old school with timers and someone in vent barking orders on who is to stop DPSing and who is to start DPSing.

 

We WILL find a way.

 

My POINT is that this is a VERY old design philosophy that WILL alienate the masses and that has already evolved FAR beyond 72 man zerg raids and wing buffet knockbacks.

 

Bring it ON. Make me WISH we had proper tools. Make it SO difficult that I cry like I did when we finally killed Vael in WoW after 2 months of wipes for server first.

 

BRING IT ON

 

I WANT THAT EPICNESS AGAIN!

[Aloro]

You claim NFL and NBA are hero worship and then go on to say that you dont like sports and lots of people dont worship them and completely negate your stance. There ARE players out there that hero worship death and taxes, vodka, blood legion etc. etc. What do you want a list of worshippers? lol

 

You seem to enjoy posting quotes from me without actually replying to my posts. It's a bit strange honestly.

 

I didn't claim NBA and NFL were hero worship actually. You raised those examples, not me. They really aren't pertinent to the discussion though, so whatever. I didn't "negate my stance" by saying that I don't think entertainers are the best role models, either.

 

And, hey, for the record... you didn't in any way justify your insults, yet again. So, poor job there. You haven't explained how I demonstrated hypocrisy, nor how I was intolerant. You just throw those things out them move on. That's... kind of cowardly, to be honest. If you don't mean those things, don't type them. If you mean them, be man enough to back up your insults.

 

You are asking to make Nightmare mode another easy mode that everyone can do with fairies and sparkles. I stand by my sentiment that if it says hard or night mare it should be difficult. You have story mode, what more do you want? Barry White reads bedtime stories mode?

 

When did I ever say or suggest any of that? You're way out in left... no, not even in left field... you're out in the parking lot two buildings away, looking at the sky and expecting a fly ball any minute now.

 

I said, just above, that I'd be fine with making NM modes HARDER. How you get from that to accusing me of wanting to make NM modes easier is... well, "unimpressive" is a good word.

 

I don't even think you're replying to someone else in this thread. Are you having a discussion on this topic in another thread, maybe? In your head?

[ChicksDigHarleys]

ITT: People needing meters to complete content calling other "bads". You kiddies would have wet yourselves playing MMOs before WoW. Edited March 6, 2012 by ChicksDigHarleys

[Aloro]

I do not know how to make myself more clear. I am arguing FOR the casuals. You are going to scream bloody murder if there are encounters you do not understand and cannot do. I am laying out the possibilities.

 

I am not a casual player. I keep posting this, since you keep saying otherwise. It's grown a bit comical.

 

I do not need your help, in any sense, to complete content. I don't rely on you, despite what you may believe. I'm not going to "scream bloody murder"; I'll learn the fights myself, thanks.

 

Check the ego at the door, sport.

[RealAeiouy]

*Edit Combat Log File, Upload* Now I did the most DPS/heals on the fight and you suck

 

First thing someone will do is write a log adjuster that can improve your dps by whatever you want... So if people want to act like tools and demand uploaded parses enjoy!

[Mirela]

Threat meters and combat logs... if you actually need them, you're less hardcore than you think. The lack of these things make the game more challenging, and actually makes combat a lot more fun. It's great to run operations with people who know they're playing with the best, and don't need a meter to tell them that.

 

I'll admit that what you're looking for is hardcore to a degree, but there's a higher level breed of raider out there that has a lot of fun competing on a global scale without complicating things with an over-abundance of information.

[RealAeiouy]

Yea we wont notice.

 

You have 30 seconds to go through 2000 lines of combat log to make sensible changes. And then upload it. Make sure it matches when the AOE hits everyone else and you have none or when I pull out my calculator to check your DPS. Do you think we blindly accept everything and don't notice anomalies? Anomalies are what we are looking for.

 

Good luck with that.

 

Lol what... You will be super easy to fool you don't even make sense.

[Dejoblue]

Well, SWTOR will lose those subscribers, sure. But one open question is: will Bioware gain or retain more players overall by choosing not to cater to the hardcore? We don't yet know the answer.

 

World of Warcraft has shown with Cataclysm that catering to casuals, with the dungeon finder, will get you a loss of 10% of your playerbase over the course of an expansion cycle.

 

Video games aren't really the source of that kind of hero-worship, by and large. I truly and honestly doubt that anyone except the other competitors ever cares if you get a world first something. Honestly, and meaning no offense, it is completely meaningless to me as an accomplishment and I in no sense put those people on pedestals. And I'm a gamer, even, playing the same games!

 

Here you say that NFL/NBA are hero worship but that, in your perspective which of course has to be broad and all inclusive MMOs dont have heros or worshippers

 

I don't aspire to be a professional athlete, actually, and never did. Since you went there, wouldn't it be a lot healthier for our society if we encouraged kids to form role models that actually provided something of substance to humanity besides mere escapism?

 

Here you say you dont worship them and set up that there actually could be MMO players that do not worship other MMO players or guilds. Of course that is unless we are living in your narrow view of the world where no one could possibly worship me or vodka or some other organization.

 

 

OK, if you say so. I feel pretty sure I've heard this line before though. Anyhow, take your ball and go home if you wish to; I'm still having fun here. Can I have your stuff?

 

Yea I know "we are just trying to throw the ball into the basket, we arent keeping score, if you wanna keep score go away because you might win". You inherently do not want my stuff your friends would laugh at you for having purples.

 

"My way to play MMOs is the One True Way. Cater to my playstyle or your entire game, nay your very industry, will crumble into dust and ruin! BEHOLD! THUS IS IT WRITTEN, THUS SHALL IT BE!"

 

Or, alternately, it's possible that this is simply a different type of game, intended to cater more to casual players, and doesn't spell the death knell for progression raiding overall.

 

This is where you are a hypocrite. You lambaste me for wanting something then proselytize your way of playing, the opposite of what I want, as what SWTOR intends. This showcases your small minded world view and beats down anyone that wishes to be competitive in any way. Casual is the ONLY way!

 

Raiding isn't the sole or main source of community in games, actually. I can understand how it might appear that way to a dedicated raider, but I encourage you to look into it a bit. You'll find that some people like to group up just to do normal questing. Some people like to chat with guild mates while doing their own thing. A lot of socialization can actually occur without anyone entering a flashpoint or operation.

 

Thanks for assuming I do not socialize in games. I know all of the above and participate in all of he above. Again you showcase your bigotry towards competitive players.

 

I am truly sorry I am a better player than you, that I like to invest my time into being the best I can be and that you discount that because you think socializing is more important than being successful.

[Flyceratops]

As far as WoW raiding goes, it didn't really die in difficulty in WotLK - the heroic modes were still quite hard, and many high-level/intensity raiding guilds said that the Lich King encounter was the hardest one they'd ever played. WoW just had a 'normal = puggable, heroic = professional' attitude which I really liked because it let more people see the same content while also offering greater challenge for players who wanted it.

 

I do think that threat and damage meters would be good, though I do agree with the developers a bit as far as how they want damage meters / combat logs to be showing only information relevant to your character, if only because a huge amount of people are incredible jerks when seeing meters that 'aren't high enough' (the WoW general forums were full of this).

 

I think that Bioware should make an effort to make raids harder, and I also think that WoW does the MMO raiding scene very well (though I preferred the WotLK raid system to the way Cataclysm was managed) and Bioware could do well to emulate them somewhat (and by emulate I don't mean 'blatantly copy', I mean 'see what Blizzard has done well, figure out why it's done well and see if you can add that to your system while also putting in other improvements'.). *shrug*

[Resallaprov]

I didn't miss your point. You think knowledge and information is a crutch. You prefer going in blind. SO DO I. IF and ONLY if it does not hinder the difficulty and diversity of encounters that BioWare can and will create.

 

I do not know how to make myself more clear. I am arguing FOR the casuals. You are going to scream bloody murder if there are encounters you do not understand and cannot do. I am laying out the possibilities.

 

BRING IT ON.

 

Bring On threat based encounters, we will do it old school with timers and someone in vent barking orders on who is to stop DPSing and who is to start DPSing.

 

We WILL find a way.

 

My POINT is that this is a VERY old design philosophy that WILL alienate the masses and that has already evolved FAR beyond 72 man zerg raids and wing buffet knockbacks.

 

Bring it ON. Make me WISH we had proper tools. Make it SO difficult that I cry like I did when we finally killed Vael in WoW after 2 months of wipes for server first.

 

BRING IT ON

 

I WANT THAT EPICNESS AGAIN!

 

I think there are a few guilds that want this as well. According to BW's metrics only 38% of players have even done an operation.

 

Hopefully in 1.2 we'll see Nightmare actually be just that. If not, I guess we'll find the next MMO with difficult encounters to play. I know my guild won't go back to wow though... I'm done with the D&D style look and feel.

 

/crossesfingers for truly epic encounters in SW:TOR in the very near future.

[Stupiddrummer]

well-written. good post, OP.

[Dejoblue]

I am not a casual player. I keep posting this, since you keep saying otherwise. It's grown a bit comical.

 

I do not need your help, in any sense, to complete content. I don't rely on you, despite what you may believe. I'm not going to "scream bloody murder"; I'll learn the fights myself, thanks.

 

Check the ego at the door, sport.

 

Oh I am so sorry.

 

So you are just here to argue for the sake of arguing, practicing those logic skills you learned in college eh? Good show old bean good show.

[RealAeiouy]

Fine, fine, I get it. Lets leave it as is. No metrics, no logs, no addons etc. Encounters will not be on par with WoW or EQ2 or RIFT. Talk about EQ 72 man tank and spank zerg raids all you want. If that is all you want, simple raids with minimal design, then go for it.

 

If you want to have world class guilds compete in SWTOR you need complex difficult encounters that require complex raid tools. If you dont then keep your fisher price mode and we will move on. We are here with bated breath waiting for the T2 raids and patch 1.2 to see what happens. This is SWTOR one shot to have an influx of players. The players in my WoW guild are waiting to see what happens as well.

 

If there are not difficult raids we are gone. If there ARE difficult raids then SWTOR WILL be the new big dog of raiding and will have a HUGE influx of WoW, EQ2 and RIFT players. It is that simple.

 

This is not about metrics and meters and addons. It is about raid difficulty and the top 1% of players that are being shunned.

 

Reread my OP, that is what it is about.

 

 

You claim you want difficult raids but then want a seriously dumbed down interface to overcome the content. That seems silly. Make the content harder without the training wheels. Enough of tough talking players who think real raiders need combat and threat meters

 

Anyone who needs those things are not hardcore nor elite.

[RealAeiouy]

There is difference between making things easier and seeing that the boss targets the tank with the second highest threat, ala patchwerk 2.0 sure you can go back to 1.0 where the tank with the highest HP is targetted.

 

There is a difference between making things easier and being able to get out yer calculator and calculating that you need to pull X amount of DPS in 5 minutes ala Festergut and seeing if the raid is even near that threshold. Instead we will simply beat our head against the wall and instead of saying hey player x is below DPS that we need we will have to chalk it up to a gear check and have no idea if we are even close or that hey we could swap out that player and kill Festergut tonight.

 

That is the difference, but you keep telling yourself that it is all about crutches.

 

"Knowledge and information is a crutch!"

If you need in game meters to solve those issues that is a player skill problem.

[halorix]

5th bullet point:

 

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19973-guild-summit-stream-live-blog/page-3

 

38% of level 50 players have participated in an Operation.

 

ha I'm part of the 62% IM IN THE MAJORITY!

 

in other news, i would like a threat meter, so then i can tell how much I'm annoying my tanks.

[Xerel]

If you need in game meters to solve those issues that is a player skill problem.

 

I keep seeing people say things like this, and I'm genuinely curious. How would you solve this?

 

It's a pretty simple scenario: A boss has an enrage timer and let's say your group is consistently wiping around 10%. You've been playing with these people for a while and are pretty confident none of them are terrible, also all of the DPS claim they're doing their best.

 

Now, you as the raid leader, how do you solve this? Keep in mind you have no metrics of any kind to evaluate the performance of your group members. So really, how do you deal with it?

[VladMorbius]

Well, SWTOR will lose those subscribers, sure. But one open question is: will Bioware gain or retain more players overall by choosing not to cater to the hardcore? We don't yet know the answer.

World of Warcraft has shown with Cataclysm that catering to casuals, with the dungeon finder, will get you a loss of 10% of your playerbase over the course of an expansion cycle.

I am truly sorry I am a better player than you, that I like to invest my time into being the best I can be and that you discount that because you think socializing is more important than being successful.[/b]

 

First off, take a few minutes and go read what the WoW designers interviewed in the past month say about what went wrong with Cataclysm; you’re in for a surprise. Secondly they have openly said the numbers were never better than when they brought Wrath of the Lich King out and the reason was the difficulty and design challenges of the content were far more rewarding then previous designs. One major factor with people leaving in droves is also the ridiculous repetitiveness of WoW content of late and the fact that so many people who started years ago no longer have the time or will to raid at the same level they did back then and the vast majority are tired of that same style of gaming; don't even get me started on the trinity.

 

You my friend suffer from a serious case of what I call “Red Slipper Syndrome”, you can’t go back to that time and you cannot recapture the newness of your first raid encounters and the challenges you faced then mostly because everything is a rehash of those experiences in one form or another and nothing will ever match that excitement and secondly those shoes aren’t really magic.