Namlos Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 MMORPGs are meant to come out incomplete. They aren't meant to be released unfinished or without the basic utilities players expect now, i.e.world/universal chat or moveable ui. How could they sell us expansions then or dangle the carrot of "the next patch may add it Soon * tm" Keep subscribing until next patch and see... They have the taking your money part finished atleast, keep paying them and they'll get around to the other stuff someday maybe.. "Soon " * tm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotpar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) I think Bioware needs to becareful with any kind of LFG system.. It hasn't had the best impact on WOW.. They had to nerf the raids for LFG groups or pugs.. Which means they either aren't as good as players in guilds or they don't have the same quality gear.. All I am saying is that isn't working out so well for WOW right now.. It isn't working out for guilds either.. Dual speccing will be removed soon as well.. When Mists of Pandera is released.. There will no longer be talent trees.. Do we want that all to happen here as well.. SWTOR isn't finished, and in some areas it needs to stay unfinished.. There was actually nothing wrong with the initial implementation of the LFG tool. One that worked much like the raid browser they had in WotLK. The reason WoW went to hell is greed. Make the game easier and more accessible -> more people play -> more money is made. Of course, that's fine. It's a business. It's not like making games is a charity. But don't go using WoW "downfall" (which in reality was just solidifying their hold on the market) as an excuse for not implementing a LFG tool because they are completely unrelated. There was a time the LFG tool wasn't a matchmaker. It could matchmake, but it was poorly implemented so nobody used it, and instead used it as a browser to put together their own groups out of a list of people. If anything, I still think the LFG channel is the premier way to go because then people can join when they randomly see someone looking for people even if they initially didn't intend to do any grouping. The LFG channel may be archaic, but it's gosh darn effective. Edited March 5, 2012 by Grotpar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal-N Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 The state of completion is not defined by the player but by the developer. Where problems start is when features are clearly meant to be there but are missing or incomplete (coughlegacysystemcough). That said, it is clear that Bioware are not living up to their normal quality of game presentation and story telling. TOR feels like a case of quantity over quality. None of the class storylines come anywhere near to the quality seen in the Mass Effect, KOTOR or Dragon Age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakkology Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Yes i truly agree with the op and all the class stories seem pretty much finished to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 MMOs are released unfinished because you and people like you freely give them a pass on this. In any other industry, faulty and incomplete products are not tolerated, and neither should they here. But no, we smile and eat up their unfinished crap while simultaneously asking for more. This game would have been exponentionally better at release had they waited another 6 months. Half of what they are implementing in 1.2 was stuff that should have been in at launch. They would have lost out in holiday box sales but increased their subscription retention base significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 "We need to wait and suffer but support the game for our children in future" I agree 100%, actually, I feel pretty noble about the suffering and sacrifice we're going through here. That said, I have a concept for a really neat game. Send me $120 now, and $15 a month for the rest of your life...your kids will love you for it. LOL..."Dad, what about my college money?"..."Shaddup son, and play your computer game, I suffered and sweated blood to get that for you"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traven Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Some of the things will improve in time yes. But what i have heard/read in these forums is that some of the more serious issues has to do with the game engine itself. Now, i don't pretend to know anything about game engines or how to fix them. But when problems exist in the core structure itself i highly doubt its fixable in a simple patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinMaki Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 I dont give it a pass. I am also frustrated. I have 3 mission logs that are unremovable in my logs (reported it a month ago with nothin), my T7 is missing in my ship so i cant do his missions. I just understand that some changes needs to be universal and doable before being done. Like back in RF Online, there was this issue with the item duplication. Everyone loved it. But is it benefiting the game community..no. It destroyed it. I know most of you would hate me for saying this but I really am not quitting until I see the changes that I want to see. That's why Im posting it on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edryk Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) The thing about most people is that they keep complaining on that this should be implented upon launch and this and that. The thing is, if you have played a lot of MMORPGs, the reason for staying is to wait for those to come out. All MMORPGs are released without a certain feature or some sort. The content should be unfinished, as progressing the story is the point of an RPG. The game, UI, tools, and features should be there to make the game enjoyable from release. Having to change my camera zoom every time I turn is not fun. Making my camera reset every time I run forward is not fun. Constantly questioning what hit me and why I died is not fun. Not being able to move my UI elements around is awful. The GTN is frustrating as anything. No high res textures - not fun. Can't take more quests because log is full of greyed out quests that can't be abandoned hinders gameplay. People missing from raid frames hurts gameplay. No macros means my bars are full and ugly. Not knowing how much damage I do and how to tweak my spec is lame. None of these things has to do with content, story, or character progression. Basic UI elements and tools that allow you to control your character are missing or frustrating. Sorry, I don't buy the argument 'it's supposed to be bad so it can be improved'. We are supposed to deal with crap so that when we get the good version we have something to compare it to? No, that's totally ridiculous. Edited March 5, 2012 by Edryk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinMaki Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 with that i have to agree. i effin hate the UI and would love macros to reduce the buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigota Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) The blocks of this game are broken that's the problem. That it is unfinished is the logical result of it. Because it's hard to build something with broken 'blocks'. Edited March 5, 2012 by Rigota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlaxitov Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 The current industry standard business model for many online purchasable game releases has become something along the lines of "pay me now and I'll entertain you later, I promise." Battered wives like the OP and several others who have posted in this thread have made all that possible. This game isn't just "unfinished." MMORPGs aren't finished in reguards to adding things untill theyre dead. This game didn't release with enough to do past the first two to three months. It tops out at two weekly eight man raids in the end and each boss drops between five and six pieces of loot. The endgame was basically a short give away. Please stop using the fact that mmos continuously add things to justify developers not releasing a solid game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solnar_xan Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) In my opinion a MMO will never be complete because the nature of this type of game is to constantly add new "content" to keep the subscriber on the "hook". I know this to be a fact and have know it for a very long time. The problem with SW:TOR is quite simply that it was rushed to launch, was not in development for long enough and continued to have problems after launch related to adding half thought out content. Now it can be argued that TOR is one of the best MMO launches to date; I would have to agree with that. That said does it mean the launch wasn't rushed ? NO. Does it mean that things were not add in half baked? NO. Does it mean that things were handled in the best possible way? NO. Does it mean that we got everything we should have received at launch? NO. What a lot of you are doing is miss conceiving the use of the word finished. Go ahead and through that word out and use instead "functional complete and triple tested" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_testing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_driven_development A MMO is not Agile and yet we are forced into agile testing. A MMO is not agile because most of the information about what is going on is kept "secret" or detail is shared in as little as possible until it hits PTS and the time any iteration spends on PTS can be limited and is most likely not based on what testing actually needs to take place, but demand. The fact is that the way these games are developed does in fact violate many of the rules of ethical software development as does a lot of other software.... To the best of my knowledge this game was in development for what 3 years? That isn't long enough. The game may have been in "dev" for a year before they talked about it or two years I don't know, but it still wasn't long enough. Proof? Legacy System. Anyone who thinks this was not intended to be in place at launch? I like the game, really I do, but it was mishandled. Just stop for a minute and think about the quality of the product we could have received if we had only been willing to wait for the product to be ready to ship instead of rushing it. I know I may be the minority, but I think good things and especially great things are worth waiting for, and that if you can't be bothered to wait you don't really want a good/great product you just want a new shinny. I posted another thread in which I blamed BioWare/EA since then I have re-evaluated my opinion to be more focused on blaming the user. We allow and encourage this; some fault can go to the developer for allowing us to push them around, but most of the fault is on the gamer because we want our buggy rushed to production game and we want it yesterday because we can't be bothered to wait. Edited March 9, 2012 by solnar_xan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 The content should be unfinished, as progressing the story is the point of an RPG. The game, UI, tools, and features should be there to make the game enjoyable from release. Having to change my camera zoom every time I turn is not fun. Making my camera reset every time I run forward is not fun. Constantly questioning what hit me and why I died is not fun. Not being able to move my UI elements around is awful. The GTN is frustrating as anything. No high res textures - not fun. Can't take more quests because log is full of greyed out quests that can't be abandoned hinders gameplay. People missing from raid frames hurts gameplay. No macros means my bars are full and ugly. Not knowing how much damage I do and how to tweak my spec is lame. None of these things has to do with content, story, or character progression. Basic UI elements and tools that allow you to control your character are missing or frustrating. Sorry, I don't buy the argument 'it's supposed to be bad so it can be improved'. We are supposed to deal with crap so that when we get the good version we have something to compare it to? No, that's totally ridiculous. Hey! This guy gets it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayln Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) The problem is there is just a LOT of MMO newbies out there. No MMO has ever launched bug free, ever NONE of the MMO's that launched have the features that they have now ( not even SWTOR ) Very few remember the games that started it all, and the slow evolving process toward what is a standard MMO today. SWTOR launched with more features and more complete than any MMO launch I have played yet. But the Newbs can only compare to games that are years, sometimes decades old, and point to the features that evolved in those games over years and years of updates as if they started that way. And they expect every feature in any other game to be included in this one ( they actually WANT a clone game ) Most of us do not want a clone game. Edited March 9, 2012 by Dayln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quarlo Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 It's 2012 and to say that MMOs are 'meant' to come out unfinished is kinda a simple statement. Yes, there will be bugs that ship with the game. No amount of QA and Beta testing will catch all the exploits/problems a game will ship with. But for a game to be released days away from 2012 without features that have become industry standards in a AAA MMO is not to be brushed under the rug. If this game had been released in 2005 it would have been leap and bounds beyond anything else on the market. I'm glad that Bioware has made promises to bring some (but not all) of these features into the game with the 1.2 Holy Grail Patch. If the state of the game and it's missing features are fine with you then I'm glad for you. But for me, and many others who feel the same as I do, SWTOR reeks of laziness and will always be considered a disappointment at launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 The thing about most people is that they keep complaining on that this should be implented upon launch and this and that. The thing is, if you have played a lot of MMORPGs, the reason for staying is to wait for those to come out. All MMORPGs are released without a certain feature or some sort. By and large the community understands that MMO's are a work in progress. However, there is an expectation of certain basic elements of the game to be present when it goes live. This game was delivered to us in a raw state that shocked a lot of players given Biowares history. This is a big issue. Secondly, it's OK to have sparse content at first IF the game can continuously entertain people with the amount that is delivered. Right now, it's so easy to get thru all the game has to offer that people find themselves having to repeat content, and that is not turning out to be very fun. This doesn't apply to everyone, lots see the game differently. But I think those that are disappointed with the game have some valid reasons to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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