Expertise - As seen from both sides of the fence. It is broken.

[me_unknown]

no, expertise ist NOT broken. your observation is FULLY INTENSIONAL and is good as it is. here why:

 

you need something like expertise to make pvp gear >>> pve gear for avoiding the need of endless grinding gear if you only wish to do pvp. there is to be expected that with new pve content also new and better pve gear apears, so you need a stat not affecting pve but only affecting pvp to not make you need grind in pvp.

 

actually expertise is TOO WEAK!

 

regarding the issues a new 50 has...

1. you would have them with or without expertise. because if there would be no expertise than the equip would be on other stats imrpoved and still would make it easy to own any fresh 50

2. so what? it takes only 1-2 weaks even for one with low time available to get good enough gear.

 

the complains about expertise and fresh 50s vs good geared ones is one of the most stupid complains i ever read in any game forum.

 

unbelievable!

 

@VincentWolf: correct: experitce needs to get tripled or even more!

 

edit: but not the effect on healing. this should either not be changed at all or removed.

Edited March 5, 2012 by me_unknown

[Endowed]

So ... you want to play 1 hr a day at most ... and compete with a person playing for months.

 

Well , ic the problem ... you dont understand how MMOs work at all...

 

Excellent post.

 

Not sure how I missed it before.

[Endowed]

actually expertise is TOO WEAK!

1-on-1, yes it kinda is.

 

Team on Team.... it isnt weak at all. Far from it.

[lightertripod]

Couldn't agree more with the OP. I just got to 50, and went from dealing over 200k damage in almost every WZ, topping the damage charts 90% of the time, to being completely worthless, dealing around 75k per WZ.

 

Like he said, frustrating doesn't capture the feeling. It is depressing, I don't feel like I even want to spend the time trying to painfully grind out better gear just so I can start having fun.

 

Expertise should reduce incoming damage ONLY, and not have an effect on outgoing or anything else.

 

nice answer brain box your issue is you did 200K now you do 75K so you get expertise now you take less damage thus you do less damage this will not keep you at 200K it will keep you at 75K

 

yes its painful to find gear without but thats a short lived issue if you force pvpers to pve for gear like lot of MMO's thats a longer term much more painful issue I for one would not PVE in this game for gear and I am pretty sure most other pvpers would not either

[Ancaglon]

Listen up pumpkin,

 

If you got over 400 expertise in 2 days, you play WAY more than the average player. Your argument is thus invalid, and stupid.

Its not from mass hours, its from proper planning.

 

LEVEL in PVP and not PVE.

 

FTR: I did the two weeklys (6) and two dailys (2) and had 1 Champ Bag before I hit 50 (1) and 1000/1000 accoms (5-almost, but I did some pvp zones for more wz accoms after purchase) stocked up before I dinged 50 as well.

 

I opened 14! bags by day two of capping my level.

You just proved his point. Most people don't play this game to level to 50 via PVP. I do have an Alt that's going for the 6 bags + expertise from 46ish weapons route, but even there he's 10 valor ranks below his level because he's done a modest amount of levelling via the storyline and missions.

 

My experience on entering level 50 warzones matches that of the OP pretty accurately, even though I already had mostly Corellia gear with Belsavis augs and so on. The availability of a "fresh 50 PVP set" would have made that a lot less traumatic.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Ancaglon

[Magnesium]

Firstly, Expertise is broken and not working correctly (In my opinion), simply because having as much Expertise should be the key in PvP but it is FAR from that based on the DR and stats you can pickup from Rakata Gear Vs the BM Gear, I'm not saying you don't have any but you have to balance when adding Expertise actually loses out over other items.

 

How can you have a PvP stat that is not the best to have at all times?

 

Next, Rated Warzones should help to add another bracket so new 50s have an easier time because gear is one thing, but team play is also another major part. Helping new 50s get some Exp gear from the start would be a good idea to help them out but I do not agree that a brand new 50 should be on the same level in gear as someone who had to work towards theirs, either have NO gear difference at all or have it make sense...

[origamikitsune]

Hokay. So. I'm a newbie at PvP. I've been doing it for about a week now. And most of that is overnight Central US Time, so its not a lot of experience - never any war zones for four hours at a time, and minimal PVP on illum at best.

 

When I do get into a full WZ, wherein someone doesn't quit, or we have no healers, they have all healers, etc., etc., and the teams are fairly well balanced, this is my experience as a "new 50 with about the best you can get without being in Champ/Rakata" and all that.

 

My first day I sucked.

My second day I asked people I had seen before for tips.

My third day I didn't suck.

My fourth day I did ok.

 

Now, I have two Columi or whatever, my two crafted rakata, and a couple of champion pieces. Its not the best, but its what I've got. I have 94 Expertise. Today I got a comment, "Only 94 expertise? Damn, I thought you had a lot more, the way you play."

 

Am I the best tank? Not by a long shot. But I hold my own 1:1 against any class (I may loose more than I win, but not without taking the other guy to within an inch of death). I don't feel out classed - I feel out played. Of course I want better gear and the like, but the only time I dread going in to a WZ with my crappy gear is when my group is all PUG, and I see 8 people with the same guild name on the other side.

 

TL;DR? - OP's experience was not mine. Far from it, I felt the difference was noticeable, but something to be overcome rather than raged against. And I am about as average as PVPers come in terms of skill, more of a PVE'er.

[kckkryptonite]

And what do you suggest? No one is saying expertise doesn't give you an advantage. If you remove expertise or nerf it too much, people will simply gear out in Rakata, which is even less accessible to the casual player/PvPer. You guys really need to think things through sometimes.

 

I also might suggest to the TS, you look pretty foolish since I don't see how some 10% damage/mitigation from expertise changes a triple digit crit into a 4k crit, it's not JUST expertise. In addition, you are comparing a tank class to a stealth class. When you change classes and specs, things can change; whether it be results and/or survivability.

 

tldr; you're naive to attribute all of your conceived problems to expertise alone.

Edited March 5, 2012 by kckkryptonite

[AstralProjection]

Hokay. So. I'm a newbie at PvP. I've been doing it for about a week now. And most of that is overnight Central US Time, so its not a lot of experience - never any war zones for four hours at a time, and minimal PVP on illum at best.

 

When I do get into a full WZ, wherein someone doesn't quit, or we have no healers, they have all healers, etc., etc., and the teams are fairly well balanced, this is my experience as a "new 50 with about the best you can get without being in Champ/Rakata" and all that.

 

My first day I sucked.

My second day I asked people I had seen before for tips.

My third day I didn't suck.

My fourth day I did ok.

 

Now, I have two Columi or whatever, my two crafted rakata, and a couple of champion pieces. Its not the best, but its what I've got. I have 94 Expertise. Today I got a comment, "Only 94 expertise? Damn, I thought you had a lot more, the way you play."

 

Am I the best tank? Not by a long shot. But I hold my own 1:1 against any class (I may loose more than I win, but not without taking the other guy to within an inch of death). I don't feel out classed - I feel out played. Of course I want better gear and the like, but the only time I dread going in to a WZ with my crappy gear is when my group is all PUG, and I see 8 people with the same guild name on the other side.

 

TL;DR? - OP's experience was not mine. Far from it, I felt the difference was noticeable, but something to be overcome rather than raged against. And I am about as average as PVPers come in terms of skill, more of a PVE'er.

 

This, OP's experience is not everyone's experience.

 

To just as many people, getting a little expertise, or even competing without it is do-able.

 

With expertise or not, a PVP guild's pre-made is still going to beat you. It's not the expertise.

[Haldern]

And what do you suggest? No one is saying expertise doesn't give you an advantage. If you remove expertise or nerf it too much, people will simply gear out in Rakata, which is even less accessible to the casual player/PvPer. You guys really need to think things through sometimes.

 

This is what I suggest. Make the best PvP gear equivilent to PvE starter epics/blues (PvE stat-wise), make it craftable (and reasonably cheap) and chuck an absolute ton of expertise on it. Everyone can buy it off the GTN when they ding 50. Hey presto, gear doesn't matter anymore in PvP.

 

PvP ranks provide better looking/rarer gear for something to aim for for the e-peen factor (and lets face it we all love the e-peen factor). Bioware chucks in a new look occasionally to keep things fresh.

 

This is never going to happen though as the PvP in this game is basically marketed to the kind of player who wants gear to make a difference. The rest of us will have to wait till GW2.

[Tenndou]

luckily the best gear for anyone with a clue is 450 expertise and the rest rakata gear

 

thats why ppl use 4set pve bonus and the rest pvp gear

 

the problem isnt expertise

 

it is people who cant even be arsed to remod their gear or put minimal effort into equiping their character

 

it takes 2 weeks of casual play time to get 2-4 columni pieces a couple of champion pieces and cent for the rest and u r good to go. do ur weeklie quests twice and u r fully geared - that means 18 warzones and some hours of afk in illum and that still is too much?

 

this game already gives out epics in an insanely fast rate and u guys want it faster? why dont they just put all battlemaster and rakata gear on a vendor for 1 credit each and get it over with - why do u ppl even play an mmo? because its so much fun playing the same 3 warzones just for the pvp?

 

u are not losing to full pvp gear ppl u r losing to ppl who put more thought and effort into their character than u did

 

ppl are quitting the game due to lack of content and u guys want stuff to be even easier amazing

Edited March 5, 2012 by Tenndou

[venjinze]

the perpetual 'wah' train keeps chugging along. PvP and PvE both require progression. You aren't going to hit 50 and head straight into nightmare mode ops, so why would you hit 50 and be able to fair well against someone who's been 50 for awhile and has put effort into gearing themselves out? 'Effort' is the operative word here, less people seem to want to put in the time. It will take a whole 2 weeks or less to gear yourself out in centurion/champ gear, thats nothing.

 

Rated warzones, dont worry - I can assure you new 50's won't be competing against full BM teams, this should wein out the frustration of having to face such geared opponents. Also, they are going to be giving a set of 'free' level 50 PvP gear for you people that are incapable of doing anything for yourselves.

Edited March 5, 2012 by venjinze

[Cerdo_hormiguero]

Takes 2-4 days to get full PvP gear at 50, too small a period to rebalance pvp around. Man up.

[Lerdoc]

Expertise is NOT getting more nerf and neither is the PvP gear.

 

You low new lvl 50 are not worth the air you breath in a wz , FACT.

 

Still the BM gear is meant to compete with the rakata gear , which let me break the news for you who know NOTHING about the endgame , is alrdy stronger than the BM set.

 

Now , yeah keep nerfing the BM gear , we will go get the rakata and use it in wzs , then guys you will see what a true trashing is all about.

 

Newsflash, that stops to be true the second 2 or more players are targeting you.

 

Rakata might be superior in duels and for pure dmg/healing, if you are being focused by 2 players or more, additional mitigation>>>>additional HP.

[Tenndou]

Newsflash, that stops to be true the second 2 or more players are targeting you.

 

Rakata might be superior in duels and for pure dmg/healing, if you are being focused by 2 players or more, additional mitigation>>>>additional HP.

 

ye because an additional 3% dmg reduction make u live 0.5 seconds longer gz so many clueless ppl here rly

[Infalliable]

So ... you want to play 1 hr a day at most ... and compete with a person playing for months.

 

Well , ic the problem ... you dont understand how MMOs work at all...

 

A person should do better, largely b/c they're better. Stats make way too much difference IMO such that they matter much more than skill. They should augment your skill not trump it.

 

It's really sad on first entering the L50 bracket and having a hard time getting the 2.5k damage medal as a DPS character. I've got mostly L50 daily comms slotted orange gear at this point (it's not the best by far, but not horrendous for a new 50) and the damage dealt vs taken from geared people is depressing.

[Belwyn]

I may have misunderstood but you did it wrong, by the time you hit 50, you can get full Centurion gear. Unlike you I hit 50 on December 19th, I was 60 valor and had full battlemaster gear by late January before the lv 50 bracket.

 

Expertise is fine the way it is, you just need to get your centurion gear as early as possible. Working hard to get battlemaster means getting owned by if you don't any pvp gear at all.

 

I was walking over people with battle master gear, when I just had my centurion. I've also seen pretty even fights with peopel champ and BM gear.

 

I just started playing wiht my Assassin, lv 50 just 22 valor but full centurion gear, and Im still getting 1st, 2nd and 3rd places on WZ. With about 320 expertise give or take, I may not be top of the charts in DPS but Im still getting my 10, 25 kills medal, Im averaging 7 medals in WZ getting up to 10 in civil war.

[venjinze]

A person should do better, largely b/c they're better. Stats make way too much difference IMO such that they matter much more than skill. They should augment your skill not trump it.

 

It's really sad on first entering the L50 bracket and having a hard time getting the 2.5k damage medal as a DPS character. I've got mostly L50 daily comms slotted orange gear at this point (it's not the best by far, but not horrendous for a new 50) and the damage dealt vs taken from geared people is depressing.

 

This argument is so redundant, is everyone in SWTOR new to MMO's? Seriously, there are people in better gear , in every game and they got that gear doing the same thing you're doing - by PvPing, but with the advantage of them being 50 longer and having already done the gear grind. You guys just hit 50 and expect a red carpet ceremony? Toughen up, seriously.

 

The word 'skill' gets thrown around too much, always with the speculation that people in full battlemaster only win against new 50 because of their gear... are you *********** kidding me? If you think you're on par with someone who has played at that level longer than you... get real.

[-sasori]

The best setup is a MIX of BM and Rakata.

But people with just full PVE gear get melted in seconds and delivering really low damage.

 

200 Points of your Mainstat do not make up for 12% Flat Damage increase AND Reduction.

 

 

And that's the catch, there is a difference in stats when comparing fresh lvl50 stuff and Champ / BM gear but none of these stats make it as much as unbalancing as expertise on top of that.

 

 

The damage difference from a weapon with 15 points more in your mainstat, 300 HP and 10 Weapon rating isn't game breaking. But coupled with additional 2% for additional damage and damage reduction on yourself it's a big thing.

 

 

If everyone would just have big HP pools a gang of low geared people can still pick im out. If he has 1/3 more hp and on top of that additional 12% damage reduction and Damage increase.....GG

 

 

Yes Expertise is the broken factor.

Edited March 5, 2012 by -sasori

[Celebrus]

You are right, I am not that great, which drives my point home even further. The fact that just by having my Champion get on one character I can run around slapping the **** out of people, staying alive, doing damage. But when I am without that gear, get exploded nearly instantly and do about as much damage as a NERF bat.

 

 

This is really a good point. As it is expertise is benefiting certain classes more than others, and it is also literally carrying people to victories they normally wouldn't have had. I noticed a huge difference between playing on my champion geared sniper and playing on my fresh 50 assassin.

[Darthshnooky]

I hit 50 last week. Been playing since early release but just leveled slowly, taking my time and enjoying the game with friends.

 

As a fresh 50, not even in daily reward gear, i jumped into the Warzones. Know what? I got stomped. A lot. Know what i didn't do? I didn't come to the boards and complain about it.

 

I watched for ways to help my team, passing the ball to better geared players, using slows and stuns instead of trying to get 1-on-1 kills, etc. Any player, of any class, with ANY gear can still help their team if they take a moment to think about what they can do beyond just "zomg killz!"

 

Since then (in the last week) i'm up to 2-3 pieces of Champion and 5 or so pieces of Centurion gear. I've just been doin' the Warzone dailies and one weekly, with some extra games here and there to buy bags. No Ilum yet. I've already noticed a tremendous difference. My kills and damage are going up, my medal counts are going up, and I can contribute in more and more ways.

 

Sure, i still get stomped sometimes -- especially if i get double-teamed. But i'm getting better, both in terms of skill and gear. Just by playing. Even after i've done my dailies, I queue up again. Know why? Cause i enjoy it. I like pvp and i find the Warzones fun.

 

The lack of xserver means i see a lot of the same people repeatedly. Getting to know folks who are on my team this round, and stunlocking me next is fun. I'm enjoying the game and slowly but surely i'm gearing up. My only complaint after a solid week of level 50 bracket pvp? The fact that I have not gotten a single champion token out of a bag -- Not ONE!

[Celebrus]

ppl are quitting the game due to lack of content and u guys want stuff to be even easier amazing

 

People are quitting the game because most of it sucks.

 

Expertise is a factor in that.

 

You simply cannot win in this situation as a developer though, and they've set themselves up for it, so don't blame the players.

 

If they remove expertise, "PvPers" will cry about it and unsub.

 

Then PvE carebears will cry about it and unsub because now all of a sudden you get close to equal gear from PvP (soloable) as you can from raiding (not).

 

Or you can nerf down PvP gear a bit, after removing expertise, then PvPers will cry again because they feel like their efforts should be rewarded with gear *at least* as good as what you get from raiding. As I said, Bioware's end game design is what put them here, not people crying for expertise nerfs, or kids that stay at home all day to grind gear. It's ****** design, at the core.

 

Or you could set your game up from stage one so that there is more of a reason to come back than soft gear resets. It's absolutely *********** ludicrous that we are only 2 months into the game's life and devs are already talking about the "next tier of gear coming in 1.2".

 

It is becoming extremely clear that this game's end game content is practically a carbon copy of WoW's. Complete with soft gear resets just to keep the gear grinders happy, because apparently thats the only crowd that belongs in MMOs.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Celebrus

[venjinze]

I hit 50 last week. Been playing since early release but just leveled slowly, taking my time and enjoying the game with friends.

 

As a fresh 50, not even in daily reward gear, i jumped into the Warzones. Know what? I got stomped. A lot. Know what i didn't do? I didn't come to the boards and complain about it.

 

I watched for ways to help my team, passing the ball to better geared players, using slows and stuns instead of trying to get 1-on-1 kills, etc. Any player, of any class, with ANY gear can still help their team if they take a moment to think about what they can do beyond just "zomg killz!"

 

Since then (in the last week) i'm up to 2-3 pieces of Champion and 5 or so pieces of Centurion gear. I've just been doin' the Warzone dailies and one weekly, with some extra games here and there to buy bags. No Ilum yet. I've already noticed a tremendous difference. My kills and damage are going up, my medal counts are going up, and I can contribute in more and more ways.

 

Sure, i still get stomped sometimes -- especially if i get double-teamed. But i'm getting better, both in terms of skill and gear. Just by playing. Even after i've done my dailies, I queue up again. Know why? Cause i enjoy it. I like pvp and i find the Warzones fun.

 

The lack of xserver means i see a lot of the same people repeatedly. Getting to know folks who are on my team this round, and stunlocking me next is fun. I'm enjoying the game and slowly but surely i'm gearing up. My only complaint after a solid week of level 50 bracket pvp? The fact that I have not gotten a single champion token out of a bag -- Not ONE!

 

See, people need to read this over. 50 last week and you have 8 pieces of PvP gear, was it that hard? Why is it so hard for people that come here and post irrelvant complaints?

 

BTW, you probably wont' see any champion token, they are extremely rare, its like a small chance to crit. The champion commedations are where you get the champion gear progression.

Edited March 5, 2012 by venjinze

[Darthshnooky]

See, people need to read this over. 50 last week and you have 8 pieces of PvP gear, was it that hard? Why is it so hard for people that come here and post irrelvant complaints?

 

BTW, you probably wont' see a champion token, they are extremely rare, its like a small chance to crit. The champion commedations are where you get the champion gear progression.

 

Yeah, I've kinda figured that is the case. But every time I open one of those bags, there's that brief Christmas morning moment. Then it's just more Cent and Champ commendations.

[gwrtheyn]

removing expertise and pvp gear iss easy

 

fixed stats @ warzones+open pvp(around bm level) even if you have no armor

no use items,only class skills

 

Edit: prob is you need to gain something in PvP,so something new must be there

Edit2: without something to gain all warzones and ilum would be empty since doing the same 3 warzones all the time(60%+ 1 of em) is little fun...

Edited March 5, 2012 by gwrtheyn