What has BioWare & TOR done to push the genre forward?

[Vecke]

As a person who's played MMO's since he was a small child. I can tell you what BioWare and TOR did to push the genre forward. They made leveling less of a borefest the first time through. I don't think they did it exactly right, simply due to the lack of options in places to level and linearity of the game itself, however as the first hammer mark on the unforged blade of the future in storytelling in an MMO? It's a strike in the right direction.

 

Games in the future will incorporate more story into their games than before, and tell it in ways that players will pay attention. I suspect there is a healthy middle ground to be had between story and game play that will eventually be discovered.

 

GW2 is integrating voiced personal story into the game, albeit much less of it than SWTOR - but maybe in the future we'll see games that balance it right. Good times ahead I think, no matter what happens to SWTOR.

 

I think this is a very good post and pretty much nails exactly what TORs place is in regards to moving the genre forward.

[Mourngrim]

4. None of them involved the kind of cinematic, choice driven storytelling Bioware implemented in this game. That is completely new to MMOs, and thank goodness, because after playing SWTOR I won't play a game with Quest Text as storytelling mechanism again.

 

Choice driven...? the idea at first seemed very interesting, until you actually realize that the choices mean very very little. The outcome is the same, because the story is set in stone. there are no real alternate endings...other than perhaps letting letting someone live might lead to some future email from them with an item of little value or creds. The system as originally conceived may have been something to cheer, but as it was implemented and released... it really doesn't add anything. of course, this is just my humble opinion.

[VenthiosLestaran]

Companion involvement is a very big one. People overlook this for some reason, but its definitely a genre first. Hirelings and voiceless tag-alongs in other MMOs do not count. This is pushing the companion forward in MMOs, DEFINITELY.

 

The personal story, context to quests, VO for every NPC. This is pushing the genre forward. It's been done before to a much lesser degree, yes, but as I said, this is pushing that metric FORWARD. It has not been done this well in any game previous. No where even CLOSE. No, not even Conan. Maybe if they continued what they had on Tortage with the rest of the game you could argue that, but even then, this is far better.

 

Those are two really big things. You can't dispute either. Sure maybe you don't like them, or they don't appeal to you, but that doesn't discredit them in any way.

 

The companions are a distinctly sharp double edged sword. They remove need for other players - while at the same time they offer more choices for the solo player. This needs better balance because at the moment it's actively discouraging questing with other players as far as I'm concerned. I like pet classes, I played a Mage in EQ1 for years. They were tied at the hips to their pets, just like you are in TOR to your companions.

 

They tell stories yes, they are interactive yes, but at the cost of what is a good question. Even GW2 was considering companions, but they removed it entirely because they felt it detracted from community interaction, which I believe it does. TOR's a prime example.

 

Another issue is they're effectively pointless at 50, until new leveling content comes out. They need to find a way to better blend their companions with all aspects of the game, without detracting from the experience of an MMO. This may not be feasible at this time - however in the future of MMO's, it may very well be. I'm not a dev though.

[KurleyKilla]

Ok well this appears just an issue of preference I guess. I would love to see all future games do what SWTOR has done with character story. It is genuinely the first MMO I've played that has felt like it deserved the RPG label.

 

 

Your opinion on this is clear however baseless I may find it.

 

 

Stories in other mediums, not other genres. Films and books are not the same medium as video games. Yes you will find other games that top SWTOR in story, but they are single player (there you might be able to argue from the genre point of view).

 

 

 

It is by no means just action movies that do this. We tell the same stories, it is arguably our nature but certainly the business model of entertainment industries. The subtle differences are what tends to make classics rather than some huge revolutionary shift in style.

 

Regarding your multi-faceted characters that are interesting bit, I couldn't agree more. That is one of the things that makes me put a book in the pile I'll recommend to friends rather than the pile I'll just donate to the library and forget about. Where we differ I suspect is in claiming that SWTOR's characters are one dimensional and or not moving.

 

 

I am talking about stories in other genres now, try to keep up, I didn't say Films and books are the same medium as games..

 

I don't even need to use a Single player story as a comparison.

 

What about Diablo 2? It is multiplayer... In fact I spent a whole hell of a lot more time with people in my party playing that game then this dead sharded game.

 

It had voiceovers and text at the same time! Even Diablo 1 had voiceovers.

 

We wanna talk innovation.. lets get real here..

 

The story/lore of that game was awesome and interesting. Better then swtor? I guess that comes down to an opinion again... I guess it didn't have any dialogue wheels so that's one knock against it.

 

 

Nor did I say action movies are the only movies who do that... You brought up Action movies as an example. But thank you for reiterating something I already know...

 

Yea I don't even need/want some crazy new innovation. I actually love a lot of the same things I used to love in my MMO's or any genre for that matter.

 

A lot of times all it really does take is a couple fresh ideas on top of a derivative solid foundation. I am ok with that.

 

Swtor falls short of even that.

 

What MMO's have you actually played to max level anyway?

[Icebaron]

I am actually disappointed in myself for missing this. Back when I used to run more instances I found the group conversations one of the more enjoyable additions to the game. Used to rave to my friends about them, unfortunately I am not too huge on PvE dungeon runs etc. Definitely a nice new addition with potential to do really neat things in the future.

 

That is why my BT groups always fill up instantly when I say into the general chat

 

"LFG BT speed run, space bar required"

 

that's right...instantly.

 

Like everything else innovative Bioware has done, it's only interesting once. GREAT idea for an RPG, horribly stupid for something you want people to pay monthly to keep playing.

[Merex]

Story in MMOs. The Lore of WoW, and well, pretty much every other MMO is just laughable now. I also tried questing in WoW last week (I pay for both games), and it was unbearable. The story element really does make a difference. I also played Tera last weekend and saw their version of "story" quests, and nearly fell out of my chair. Edited February 29, 2012 by Merex

[VenthiosLestaran]

That is why my BT groups always fill up instantly when I say into the general chat

 

"LFG BT speed run, space bar required"

 

that's right...instantly.

 

Like everything else innovative Bioware has done, it's only interesting once. GREAT idea for an RPG, horribly stupid for something you want people to pay monthly to keep playing.

 

Idea =/= Implementation. The idea is you need to find a way to balance the two, like everything. If SWTOR adopted the idea that ArenaNet came up with, they might make some damn good use of it. Story mode in a dungeon you have to do first - which unlocks exploration mode. Where you can go and do more things, find more stuff, encounter different events and enemies on different paths through the dungeon.

 

Now, with SWTOR's design as it stands? Impossible for these older flashpoints. However there is not one thing stopping new flashpoints from incorporating new and great ideas. Balance, in all things. Even the Force.

[DJunior]

Everybody is talking about the storytelling. Well, I have this to say.

 

The stories are overrated! The stories are overrated! I never felt so used as when I found out how many others had been Darth Baras' apprentice. I feel so trashy!

 

This is supposed to be an MMO, but what it is a massively single-player oriented game with thousands of others... and one out of every eight of us share basically the same storyline.

 

The storylines are, in fact, a nice addition in the respect that they make 1-50 questing a little more enjoyable, but for me, that would be very little.

 

Again, they're overrated, and the real idea of a multiplayer game has very little to do with talking to NPCs. The community is what needs work. People practically talk more to NPCs than they do to each other in this game. By adding in the single-player concepts, Bioware fail to a degree on the multiplayer.

 

That's what I think anyhoo.

Edited February 29, 2012 by DJunior

[Icebaron]

Everybody is talking about the storytelling. Well, I have this to say.

 

The stories are overrated! The stories are overrated! I never felt so used as when I found out how many others had been Darth Baras' apprentice. I feel so trashy!

 

This is supposed to be an MMO, but what it is a massively single-player oriented game with thousands of others... and one out of every eight of us share basically the same storyline.

 

The storylines are, in fact, a nice addition in the respect that they make 1-50 questing a little more enjoyable, but for me, that would be very little.

 

Again, they're overrated, and the real idea of a multiplayer game has very little to do with talking to NPCs. The community is what needs work. People practically talk more to NPCs than they do to each other in this game. By adding in the single-player concepts, Bioware fail to a degree on the multiplayer.

 

That's what I think anyhoo.

 

Exacltly, now many members of the Dark Council are there anyways? Thousands it appears.

But to be honest, I'm just picking at the story because I didn't like it that much. Cata had me save the world along with every other lvl 85 out there and I loved that story. So maybe I am just bitter.

[Knockerz]

This isn't the military or a research related industry. Innovating is risky. Why should game companies take a deep risk like innovating as you put it "pushing the genre forward." In case you haven't notice a lot innovation is risk and I only see new players or not established companies taking the risk to innovate cause those companies don't have the resources to stand toe to toe against large software companies. It's the same reason microsoft and apple originally started in a garage. Besides, why should companies innovate cause mr op isn't satisfied with the latest mmoprg. It's not just a software question, but a hardware one too. Unfortunately, hardware advancement has slow down especially in terms of processing power of new cpu developed, which is why amd and intel having been developing multi-core cpu's cause they can't significantly increase the processing power of a single cpu like they used to pack in 2001.

 

 

 

I don't expect major innovations in this type of mmorpg genre simply cause the technology set limit both for the developing company and the user, their computers. At this point, I never really been happy with this genre cause I was expecting battles with hundreds of players and not some cheap 20 vs 20, but more like 200v200 or maybe in the thousands. Thus, the genre is already limited by hardware, so I don't expect much different until major computer innovations or next big jump like going from vacuums vs transistors.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Knockerz

[Dee-Jay]

Huttball is pretty awesome

 

And proving that compelling narrative is actually a strong motivator. I'm still not convinced it's all that well suited for an MMO though.

[VenthiosLestaran]

Huttball is pretty awesome

 

And proving that compelling narrative is actually a strong motivator. I'm still not convinced it's all that well suited for an MMO though.

 

In this current iteration? It isn't. However, now that the rough lump of ore has been dropped in front of the developer market - it can be processed and refined.

[KahnyaGnorc]

It feels more like a table-top RPG campaign than any MMO I have ever played. While it still has its limitations, I think it is a huge step forward.

[KurleyKilla]

It feels more like a table-top RPG campaign than any MMO I have ever played. While it still has its limitations, I think it is a huge step forward.

 

So.. basically, it feels more like something that is not an MMO at all, then any MMO you have ever played?

 

yup huge step forward.

 

All rpg's are spawned of course from the original Pen and paper RPG but... really?

 

The MMO part of MMORPG is the part Swtor is missing.

Edited February 29, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[Vecke]

Everybody is talking about the storytelling. Well, I have this to say.

 

The stories are overrated! The stories are overrated! I never felt so used as when I found out how many others had been Darth Baras' apprentice. I feel so trashy!

 

This is supposed to be an MMO, but what it is a massively single-player oriented game with thousands of others... and one out of every eight of us share basically the same storyline.

 

The storylines are, in fact, a nice addition in the respect that they make 1-50 questing a little more enjoyable, but for me, that would be very little.

 

Again, they're overrated, and the real idea of a multiplayer game has very little to do with talking to NPCs. The community is what needs work. People practically talk more to NPCs than they do to each other in this game. By adding in the single-player concepts, Bioware fail to a degree on the multiplayer.

 

That's what I think anyhoo.

 

How is that different from every other mmo in existence. Every boss in every instance is - story wise - just killed by you. But he's actually killed by thousands. Every quest is a quest only accomplished by you, but it's actually accomplished by thousands. Every named mob is killed - over and over - by thousands.

 

Really, what you're complaining about is a complaint toward all MMOs, not SWTOR.

[cipher_nemo]

The only thing Bioware might have done to push the envelope is to have voice-overs for most mission interactions. Otherwise it's just a cookie-cutter when it comes to developing and evolving the MMO genre. In fact, many things are a step backwards compared to other MMOs, such as the UI (which will be improved soon), the horrible lack of LFG tools, kill/activate X number of whatever quests, and the same-old raiding mechanics. No innovation here.

 

Even though I feel Bioware just tried to clone the genre, I must admit that their server reliability and up time is record setting for a developer breaking into the MMO market for the first time. Otherwise, yeah, same old grind.

Edited February 29, 2012 by cipher_nemo

[ShotByBothSides]

Aside from the story telling, which is entertaining for a while, I am sorry to say they have added nothing to the genre. In fact, so many mechanics have been lifted from other "in the mold" MMOs that it is unlikely to hold my interest for months on end.

[jontyld]

Probably nothing. But players don't want things to move forward. If these boards are anything to go by people don't actually want MMOs to move forward, they want time machines to replay EQ1, SWG, or WoW:BT

[KahnyaGnorc]

So.. basically, it feels more like something that is not an MMO at all, then any MMO you have ever played?

 

yup huge step forward.

 

All rpg's are spawned of course from the original Pen and paper RPG but... really?

 

The MMO part of MMORPG is the part Swtor is missing.

 

MMO - Massively-Multiplayer Online . . .

 

Online, well, yes, it is over the Internet, so check.

 

Multiplayer - yes, there are more than one player, so check.

 

Massively - a lot, as a adverb describing "Multiplayer" . . . there are a lot of players, so check.

 

It fits the definition of MMO. However, TOR makes HUGE steps forward in the RPG department in the MMO sphere.

[Rhymez]

Fill in the blank.

 

Should we expect a new game to push the genre forward?

 

Is it ok if a new game does not push the genre forward?

 

Not in this case no.

Considering that WoW has been around for years, and this is exactly the same, bar a star wars skin and the odd gimmick, its a bit of a con for people who have been playing WoW for so long.

It's also baffling why dev's even bother copy/pasting things from WoW because with all the time its been around, they've had plenty of opertunity to make things perfect.

 

It's also annoying to realise that dev's that make games like this just seem to want a piece of the pie that WoW has managed to get.

The problem is, WoW is it's own game, nobody should copy core gameplay elements from it, or if they do, they should at least make it feel different, maybe for endgame etc...

This is why i think this game will be go the way of Rift, whilst not bad, its not brilliant either, like many (including me) thought it would be.

 

Nothing new added to the genre at all, a massive missed opertunity as far as i'm concerned. Hugely disappointing as well

 

/rant lol

Edited February 29, 2012 by Rhymez

[ThiborF]

Most mmo's start at endgame. SWTOR ends at endgame. That is not innovation, that is a flawed design.

 

Actually no, your mode of thinking is what has flawed this genre.

 

The RPG based on the old PnP games like AD&D had a leveling process. In fact the old PnP games really didn't have an end-game. There were just different adventures to go on.

 

Computer RPGs have long included the leveling process. From the early days of Ultima and Might & Magic and into the MMO versions.

 

But, I honestly think many of you would be happier if these were like Battlefield ... pick your kit and go. No leveling. No questing. Minimal to no story. Just hop from one "end-game" dungeon map to the next.

 

That wouldn't be a MMORPG ... it would be a MMOFPS. If that's what you're really looking for I suggest keeping an eye on Planetside 2 .. it might end up being more along the lines of what you're looking for.

 

I've been hearing since the early days of WoW (never heard it really in AC2 or SWG) and it was probably a carry over from the EQers coming over to WoW at how the game begins at 60. I guess all the detail in quests, stories, environments, etc from 1-60 is a waste then? I'm glad developers don't all feel the same.

 

The game begins at level 1. If your view of it is that the developers are just wasting your time to get to end game than perhaps you should look for a different genre that better suits your playstyle. I hear things like Team Fortress 2 have no leveling required at all.

[KurleyKilla]

MMO - Massively-Multiplayer Online . . .

 

Online, well, yes, it is over the Internet, so check.

 

Multiplayer - yes, there are more than one player, so check.

 

Massively - a lot, as a adverb describing "Multiplayer" . . . there are a lot of players, so check.

 

It fits the definition of MMO. However, TOR makes HUGE steps forward in the RPG department in the MMO sphere.

 

 

Online- yep it uses internets... as does almost every game that comes out these days.

 

Multiplayer- Yep once again.. Multiple players can play together

 

MASSIVE- The main part of MMORPG, the part that makes it different then just an online multiplayer game such as Diablo 2.

 

Could this game be any less massive? go from planet to planet... Incredibly empty? yes...

 

Too many players In one planet? You get split up into a separate shard... or basically a WHOLE OTHER WORLD... therefore this is not an MMO, if you use every other MMO in existence as a comparison.

 

this debate has really been done to death.

 

 

This game is more comparable to a multiplayer online game like Diablo 2, then any MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER online game ever.

 

The planets have invisible walls that if you cross.... You will start to die of exhaustion?

 

massive? yea right...

 

The fact that there are lots of players playing does not automatically make it massive. They are divided up into there own dimensions. Similar to Diablo 2.. where thousands of people are of course playing... ONLINE.... but they are all divided up into there own games... Therefore not making it an MMO..

[WutsInAName]

EQ2 looks horrible compared to SWTOR... what are you talking about...

 

You must have a bad rig. EQ2 is the best graphic MMO out bar none. The textures and layers and even particle effects are 'lightyears' beyond anything SWTOR is doing some 8 years later.

 

 

http://www.google.ca/search?q=EQ2+%2B+max+graphics&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHMO_en-gbCA470CA470&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=Wo5OT4foLeqxiQLOrZC7Cw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=677#hl=en&rlz=1C1CHMO_en-gbCA470CA470&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=EQ2+%2B+max+graphics+%2B+sky&pbx=1&oq=EQ2+%2B+max+graphics+%2B+sky&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=24574l25868l0l26172l6l6l0l5l0l0l165l165l0.1l1l0&gs_l=img.3...24574l25868l0l26172l6l6l0l5l0l0l165l165l0j1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=d94cee0196bd98a5&biw=1024&bih=677

 

^^ If you think those are worse graphics then SWTOR you need your eyes examined.

[Hellapain]

For me personally the big push forward was alleviating the grind. I've yet to feel like I'm ever grinding unlike every other MMO since UO. I'm just playing the game and enjoying it.

 

Also for the first time I've actually gotten heavily into crafting since I don't have to sit there and watch a progress bar while twittling my thumbs. Huge advance from my perspective.

 

I'm actually progressing more than a single character to level cap just to experience the different storylines. Never even considered doing that in any other MMO after experiencing the grind.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Online- yep it uses internets... as does almost every game that comes out these days.

 

Multiplayer- Yep once again.. Multiple players can play together

 

MASSIVE- The main part of MMORPG, the part that makes it different then just an online multiplayer game such as Diablo 2.

 

Could this game be any less massive? go from planet to planet... Incredibly empty? yes...

 

Too many players In one planet? You get split up into a separate shard... or basically a WHOLE OTHER WORLD... therefore this is not an MMO, if you use every other MMO in existence as a comparison.

 

this debate has really been done to death.

 

 

This game is more comparable to a multiplayer online game like Diablo 2, then any MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER online game ever.

 

The planets have invisible walls that if you cross.... You will start to die of exhaustion?

 

massive? yea right...

 

The fact that there are lots of players playing does not automatically make it massive. They are divided up into there own dimensions. Similar to Diablo 2.. where thousands of people are of course playing... ONLINE.... but they are all divided up into there own games... Therefore not making it an MMO..

 

I've seen large parties (as in celebrations, not as gameplay groups) which enormous numbers of people RPing, talking, dancing, and the like. The largest of these were a few dozen or so (too large to be in a single operation raid group). It is MASSIVELY-Multiplayer. Sharding is for convenience and lag (do you really want to wait a huge time to kill that named elite for your quest or bonus quest?).