Tone down Smash/Force Sweep

[SicNNasty]

Just for a second let's imagine that Juggs/Guards smashes do hit for 6k.

 

You are complaining about 6k every 12s (specced), because the burst damage can actually throw off your healing. (Spike damage as opposed to consistant damage)

 

Okay, so let's see, I'll only use the two DPSers I've played, well the two real damage dealers of the game: Marauder and Sniper. (I say real, because damage is all thay can do contrary to other classes)

 

Over the course of one GCD over lap, understand by this: the use of an ability, triggering a GCD, then a second ability used at the end of that GCD. So over the course of one GCD over lap a sniper can max out about 12k, a marauder 11k. The mrauder would have laid down rougly 6k damage before getting to that burst, the sniper can obtain that burst as an opener.

 

Lets exagerate things to make them in favor of your argument: smash is to much.

 

Let's say after a 6k smash, the guard/jugg could finish his GCD over lap with a 3k hit (not possible but hey, trying to argue your cause here!), that would mean that the jugg/guard can lie down 9k on one GCD overlap, but has to use a combo of skills in order to reach that (impossible) burst.

 

Even then the Jugg / guard is laying down 2k less than a marauders spike, 3k less than a Snipers.

 

So my point is the following:

 

Why do you consider smash, even if it did crit at 6k, needs to be looked at, rather than the sniper's Ambush (4k) Explosif droid (2.5k) and followthrough (3k) all ticking at the exact same time.

[drdarpa]

OP's WASD keys don't work.

[furiousferret]

Every nerf this game has produced has benefitted ranged classes, so this will probably get nerfed.

 

Melee classes have to hit harder because their window is much smaller than ranged. I dont think Smash though is that bad, Im full Champ / Columni with and my biggest hit was 4500. I think there is some exaggeration here.

[da_krall]

Sentinels/Marauders are already the underdog. Let's not tone down anything.

 

They are only the underdog in your head, in reality they are one of the best PvP classes - 1v1, 1v2 and group

[Chaosmagistrate]

I think the Problem is still the PvP Adrenal and the Expertise Buff. +30% Damage and -30% Damage Taken. OP!

 

This should have been patched in 1.1, as Berserker no longer stacks on any adrenal. It actually overrides the adrenal.

 

I personally have not bothered to test that, but maybe instead of trusting Bioware complicitly, I should double check.

 

Also, Jugg smashes hit harder than Marauder smashes due to talents. But both can easily get the 5k medal with adrenal relic pop.

[Hamibal]

Difference is from healer's POV. You can heal through steady incoming damaga. You can't heal someone who's just got instagibbed with a pro warrior smashed his head into his big red mofo button of death.

 

Here is where the truth comes out.

[Shredbull]

Just for a second let's imagine that Juggs/Guards smashes do hit for 6k.

 

You are complaining about 6k every 12s (specced), because the burst damage can actually throw off your healing. (Spike damage as opposed to consistant damage)

 

Okay, so let's see, I'll only use the two DPSers I've played, well the two real damage dealers of the game: Marauder and Sniper. (I say real, because damage is all thay can do contrary to other classes)

 

Over the course of one GCD over lap, understand by this: the use of an ability, triggering a GCD, then a second ability used at the end of that GCD. So over the course of one GCD over lap a sniper can max out about 12k, a marauder 11k. The mrauder would have laid down rougly 6k damage before getting to that burst, the sniper can obtain that burst as an opener.

 

Lets exagerate things to make them in favor of your argument: smash is to much.

 

Let's say after a 6k smash, the guard/jugg could finish his GCD over lap with a 3k hit (not possible but hey, trying to argue your cause here!), that would mean that the jugg/guard can lie down 9k on one GCD overlap, but has to use a combo of skills in order to reach that (impossible) burst.

 

Even then the Jugg / guard is laying down 2k less than a marauders spike, 3k less than a Snipers.

 

So my point is the following:

 

Why do you consider smash, even if it did crit at 6k, needs to be looked at, rather than the sniper's Ambush (4k) Explosif droid (2.5k) and followthrough (3k) all ticking at the exact same time.

 

The fact is that its an AoE , thus extremely powerfull in situations with more players togheter, lets say a turret, or a ballcarrier.

 

Secondly, I am a sorcerer, full champion, with 8 battlemaster pieces, and my guildmates, the ones that play a juggernaut ( Also battlemaster) manage to crit 5.5k on me, and yes , thats after the surge nerf.

 

All decent geared juggs who know how to setup properly for these devastating crits crit above 4.8k on me, light armor.

 

So perhaps, you should stop defending juggernauts.

 

Oh and what's with the sniper hate? They can only do the ambush / droid trick every 20-30 seconds, and that IF they have enough energy left to do so, while being completely immobile and having to wait 2.5 seconds to cast this. If I get a sniper on me charging ambush I just hide behind something and watch him nerdrage. Snipers are so immobile it's hilarious and on top of that they have THE WORST energy managment system of all classes. They run out after 4 GCD's.

[Fan_Atic]

Couple of things. I'm a BM geared Rage Jugg. Smash will crit for 2-3k if you just hit it. BFD lol. Now if you set it up, I can crit champ geared people for 3800-6k depending on how many cooldowns I use and what debuffs they have. This is from a Jugg POV I don't have a guardian.

 

IMPORTANT PART PLEASE READ: Setting up a smash requires being on target and using a 4 rage Crush or a free Force Choke. We have a talent that increase smash damage by 25% for every tick of either of the 2 above abilities.

 

Force Choke is easily interrupted and is the inferior way to build those stacks as it requires a full duration choke, is about a 40 second cooldown, and wastes a very important interrupt/cc.

 

Crush is preferred as it is a slowing dot with mediocre damage. The cooldown for crush is talented to 18 seconds. When the dot ticks for 5 seconds we are ready to smash at 200% damage.

 

The smash buff stacks gained from crush/choke last ~ 9-10 seconds. And if we can't smash they are lost.

 

Smash in itself is a bit buggy. It has a ~1-1.5 second animation delay before damage. Once pressed the attack or animation cannot be cancelled (this is a huge problem with moving targets). If you are moving/kiting the warrior you have a 95% chance of avoiding it completely due to the small 5 meter radius and the animation delay.

 

If you are stunned or knocked back during the animation delay stacks are wasted and the smash goes on cooldown without doing damage. A good player can achieve this quite often.

 

If you're worried about being smashed you only need to move that's it. It is virtually worthless if the target or targets are moving.

 

Smash is the ONLY way a Jugg/Guardian can achieve a 5k medal period. To do this the target must be either under geared or the attacker must pop adrenals/relics or have a WZ expertise buff.

 

Smash is the only burst a warrior has if you still want an easily avoidable move nerfed prepare to have several other abilities of ours substantially buffed.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Fan_Atic

[MPagano]

So far I've gathered from this post that healers want smash to be toned down because it's AoE and it's hard or impossible to keep everyone on their team alive through that kind of crit. Why should you be able to heal everyone through that? Or even anyone?

[jonnyshadow]

@ OP....they are not going to nerf them if they do it would just prove how much of a fail bioware is first up its 5 METERS so basically you have to be right beside them for it to affect you...second up i read your post saying you can heal through the damage...well your not suppose to not all your heals are going to keep the person being healed up all the time so that was just a fail statement by you...and lastly juggs are just fine l2p and stop crying because another class looks "to strong" when it really isnt

[Coldin]

People complained about Scoundrel/Operative hitting for 6k, and that was single-target. It also had the same caveats that you had to be hitting some undergeared. Yet that got nerfed, so why not nerf Force Sweep too?

[FINALBOSS]

Melee does not need nerfs....sorry.

 

As someone who frequently gets hit by Smash, I still don't see the issue.

 

 

Ranged classes pretty much have their finger on the knockback button these days. On my 50 Sniper alt, I love shooting at a Sorc from afar...watch them take damage, and immediately smash their knockback key when NO ONE is around just because they were taking damage.

[drdarpa]

People complained about Scoundrel/Operative hitting for 6k, and that was single-target. It also had the same caveats that you had to be hitting some undergeared. Yet that got nerfed, so why not nerf Force Sweep too?

 

Because it doesn't hit for that much.

 

Oh and you have to be within 5 meters of it.

 

Not to mention that it doesn't hit for that much. Unless you have proof you or the OP would like to show us to back up your theory.

[copasetic]

I play a Rage Jugg and can confirm the only way to get 6k+ Smashes is with both Power Adrenal and Power Relic popped or Expertise Buff Pickup and Power Relic popped. My highest Smash post Surge nerf with every buff possible has been around 7400 and it was on either a very squishy Sniper/Gunslinger or Shadow/Assassin, I can't remember which. Keep in mind that I'm also fully decked in the optimal mods (str/power) and enhancements (power/surge). I have 4/5 Battlemaster gear and am only missing BM Relics, the belt, and my off hand. I have around 580 Expertise.

 

My average Nonbuffed Smashes are hitting for anywhere between 4500-5500 depending on if the enemy is a squishy or not. My average fully buffed Smashes hit for anywhere between 6000-7000. That 7400 Smash has been my only 7k+ Smash so don't think this regularly happens. I can get the 5k medal very easily and I am at the top of the total damage done chart in the majority of my WZs.

 

As others have already said, if they nerf Smash, they are nerfing the entire Rage tree since this tree has many talents that completely revolve around improving Smash. If they were to nerf it, they'd have to give some sort of buffs, even if they are minor, to Vigilance.

 

And it's already been said how easy it is to see a Smash coming and how to prevent eating it.

Edited February 23, 2012 by copasetic

[Kabaal]

 

My average Nonbuffed Smashes are hitting for anywhere between 4500-5500 depending on if the enemy is a squishy or not. My average fully buffed Smashes hit for anywhere between 6000-7000. That 7400 Smash has been my only 7k+ Smash so don't think this regularly happens. I can get the 5k medal very easily and I am at the top of the total damage done chart in the majority of my WZs.

 

 

I very much doubt the truth of this post and i say this as someone who has been a battlemaster Juggernaut since within the first few of weeks of the game's launch. Smash did not average 4500-5500 unbuffed even before the level 50 bracket was introduced even with extreme amounts of surge and there's no way your fully buffed smash's are always hitting for 6 to 7k in the game as it is now unless all you ever fight is fresh level 50 pugs in blue <50 gear.

[Iridor]

Difference is from healer's POV. You can heal through steady incoming damaga. You can't heal someone who's just got instagibbed with a pro warrior smashed his head into his big red mofo button of death.

 

Show me where a warrior can instagib someone, because that's ********. Yes, we have one ability that has high burst damage. It's on a cooldown... if a healer can't heal that three or four thousand damage back in 9 seconds, they're bad. If you're struggling because you're sitting around at low hp and a warrior jumps on you with four stacks prepared and gibs you, grats... you would have died to the first stealth, sniper, tracer spammer, etc. to come along. Warriors are hardly the only burst in the game.

 

And yes, one ability is that good... it's kind of like tracer missile/grav round, where the entire tree is built around that ability. They're not going to change the big hit mechanic, because that literally is what the tree runs on, and it's not unreasonable to expect you to be able to handle a single big hit every ten or so seconds in PvP.

[EternalFinality]

People who gripe about the damage numbers of a single move as imbalanced without looking at dps or the amount of time/buffs/items/gear needed to set it up are the worst kind of whiners - they are the clueless ones.

[copasetic]

I very much doubt the truth of this post and i say this as someone who has been a battlemaster Juggernaut since within the first few of weeks of the game's launch. Smash did not average 4500-5500 unbuffed even before the level 50 bracket was introduced even with extreme amounts of surge and there's no way your fully buffed smash's are always hitting for 6 to 7k in the game as it is now unless all you ever fight is fresh level 50 pugs in blue <50 gear.

 

I'll be sure to take some screenshots of my highest damage hits in my WZs from now on. I never saw the point since I assumed other equally geared Rage Juggs would be doing similar damage.

[XapM]

 

And it's already been said how easy it is to see a Smash coming and how to prevent eating it.

 

ORLY? All hints i see are "pop all your escape abilities and run away before it's too late" And if i can't run? Not everyone plays sorc/sage, not everyone is ranged. Do you honestly think your 6k+ smashes are balanced after surge-nerf if operative's hidden strike was considered op with 4-5k with old surge?

Edited February 24, 2012 by Wekeltes

[copasetic]

ORLY? All hints i see are "pop all your escape abilities and run away before it's too late" And if i can't run? Not everyone plays sorc/sage, not everyone is ranged. Do you honestly think your 6k+ smashes are balanced after surge-nerf if operative's hidden strike was considered op with 4-5k with old surge?

 

Stop trying to compare a Stealth Class's opener/rotation to a Rage Juggernaut.

 

Unless your CC breaker was off CD, you're forced to watch your health bar go from 100% to less than 30% for Heavies and 20% for squishies (sometimes even dead through the entire CC) without being able to do ANYTHING to prevent this. I don't mind dying to Operatives burst because I acknowledge that it is the ONLY way they can get kills. After their opener, they are relatively weak and can't do nearly as much damage until they restealth and reset.

 

When facing a Rage Jugg, you can do many things:

 

1. Look at his buffs he has. If you see a buff with 4 stacks on him, run/CC/knockback.

 

2. If he uses a spell on you that slows your movement gradually, run/CC/knockback.

 

3. If he uses Force Choke on you, run/CC/knockback.

 

4. Once you've acknowledged this player is a Rage Jugg that Smashes for very hard, simply tell your team to focus him down every time he leaps in. Rage Juggs are very squishy and have some of the worse defensive CDs in the game. They go down very quickly when focused.

 

There's four ways to counter a Rage Jugg.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Wekeltes

[drdarpa]

ORLY? All hints i see are "pop all your escape abilities and run the fck away before it's too late" And if i can't run? Not everyone plays sorc/sage, not everyone is ranged. Do you honestly think your 6k+ smashes are balanced after surge-nerf if operative's hidden strike was considered op with 4-5k with old surge?

 

WASD FAIL??!?!?!?!?! THAT'S UNPOSSIBLE!!!

 

So wait, what is your class, exactly?

[Fan_Atic]

Just another comment on the difference between the op/scoundrel nerf vs a possible smash nerf. Smash is completely avoidable and you can see it a mile away. You won't be standing around when a Jugg pops out of stealth and instagibs you in 4 seconds.

 

To me that makes all the difference in the world. A Jugg/Guard cannot sneak up on anyone they cannot choose to leave or reset a fight and the setup time requires 5-6 seconds minimum. It's not instant and they have nothing heavy at all to follow it up with.

[SmokingGoose]

Printscreen or it didn't happen.

Want to see a Bm geared get 6k'd by a smash.

Oh and you are asking them to nerf a class that doesn't need nerfing.

Yes when you say nerf burst from a burst skill tree its a nerf no matter how you redistribute the damage.

Edited February 23, 2012 by SmokingGoose

[vindianajones]

ORLY? All hints i see are "pop all your escape abilities and run the fck away before it's too late" And if i can't run? Not everyone plays sorc/sage, not everyone is ranged. Do you honestly think your 6k+ smashes are balanced after surge-nerf if operative's hidden strike was considered op with 4-5k with old surge?

 

I think it's time to give up. This guy isn't going to be convinced. He doesn't play the class and doesn't know anything about it. He's overstating the damage of the ability. He's clearly never missed force sweeps due to sync lag, ability/animation delay, knockback, stun, force speed, and missed out on damage that other burst builds with targetable abilities would never miss. He just got hit for a lot and now he sees red. No matter how much we explain he seems to be standing by his original point. No amount of convincing will do any good. This is a pointless debate. New thread.

[Subatia]

Stop trying to compare a Stealth Class's opener/rotation to a Rage Juggernaut.

 

Unless your CC breaker was off CD, you're forced to watch your health bar go from 100% to less than 30% for Heavies and 20% for squishies (sometimes even dead through the entire CC) without being able to do ANYTHING to prevent this. I don't mind dying to Operatives burst because I acknowledge that it is the ONLY way they can get kills. After their opener, they are relatively weak and can't do nearly as much damage until they restealth and reset.

 

When facing a Rage Jugg, you can do many things:

 

1. Look at his buffs he has. If you see a buff with 4 stacks on him, run/CC/knockback.

 

2. If he uses a spell on you that slows your movement gradually, run/CC/knockback.

 

3. If he uses Force Choke on you, run/CC/knockback.

 

4. Once you've acknowledged this player is a Rage Jugg that Smashes for very hard, simply tell your team to focus him down every time he leaps in. Rage Juggs are very squishy and have some of the worse defensive CDs in the game. They go down very quickly when focused.

 

There's four ways to counter a Rage Jugg.

 

Shhhhh...... You're giving away our secretes.

 

Personally, I wish Smash would get buffed to be insta-cast instead of doing the little flip in the air. I can't count the number of times I've been knocked out of my Smash between my button push and it hitting, resulting in either a Smash that hits nothing or Smash not even going off, but still going on cool-down. After, I'm stuck with little to do until everything comes off CD and I have to start over.