Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Sardia-Jax]

I think theme park MMOs is a dead end.

 

True "next-generation" game should be a neat mix of both theme park and sandbox.

 

Agreed.

 

I've played SWG (til the class and combat change), EQ2 (bout 3 months), WOW (4.5 years), and EVE (almost 2 years).

 

I think, all told, the most fun ive had, was with SWG (for the crafting, its all i did, LOVED IT, AND for the social aspect) and EVE (for the pvp and tactical/political environment...crafting too )

 

Now, saying that, yes, SWG had a TON of problems, buggy as hell, and alot of game issues in general. EVE also is kinda niche, as its not user friendly and the learning curve can be quite steep, but rewarding.

 

How i would like TOR to be:

 

1. GET RID of the classes....1 of the best things about SWG is you had 1 toon, but it could do ANYTHING...so what if its a grind to drop all of marksman or droid engineer to take up doctor or musician? Themepark design is a worse grind imo, because theres always a new set of tier to get, a new set of x gear for y character, dailies to do, UGH, enough with dailies!!!

 

2. BRING THE SOCIAL ASPECT!...SWG gave very good reasons to hit the cantina, because it was guaranteed to be populated (even on the worst planets) with people to talk to, or to get buffs, or just listen to the general rabble.

With TOR, its general chat on the station...and even then its a total pita to get a group together to do much of anything. Planets are worse...totally seperated people soloing 99% of the content, because everyone has a "pet". Very disconnected...

 

3. TOTALLY PLAYER DRIVEN CRAFTING/ECO. No brainer there...both EVE and SWG nailed that. "Dungeon drops? No. Crafting drops, YES. Do a wormhole op in a cl5 magentar wh, get sleeper loot to sell in jita, or use to craft your own t3 componets. KIll a ton of nightsisters for an armor drop, or kryatt dragons for weapon materials... Some "tier" stuff is fine, peachy, but make the majority of drops tradeable and useful. "Tier" barrles, crystals, cloth, the list is endless. This would have guilds either stockpile them so their crafters could make guildies items (aka WOW drops of purple crafting mats) or sell to buff the GB...pugs could just roll and sell them or use for themselves.

 

Thats some of my main wishes....but truth be told, unless bioware changes TOR to not be "WOW in space"...its going to be a 200 million dollar voicover disaster.

 

Oh and :

The ultimate MMO will be:

 

 

Themepark like SWTOR while LEVELING.

 

Sandbox like SWG/EVE while at MAX LEVEL.

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe any developer in the future will understand the need for sandbox elements at max level but having the leveling process be like SWTOR.

 

+10 to you sir!

Edited February 17, 2012 by Sardia-Jax

[Ineedmoreletters]

If SwG pre CU was considered a sandbox. A Sandbox MMo is just a theme park without the rides. I participated in "player" made content. Building cities wasn't rely that big of a task nor did anyone I talk to have pride in them. PvP riading of towns happened from time to time not because we where creative but because it was one of the few activities to do. Any time they added something else to grind everyone in this sandbox was there and doing it. Geo Blasters, holocrons, krayt scales, night sisters... ect . If you want to claim to be a sandbox where players create the content you would need a mix of minecraft and rpg maker to rely meet those expectations. Until then your just a theme park with a few shops and no rides.

[Dyvid]

To be honest I'm getting a little annoyed with people asking for sandboxes but can't break it down into specifics on what they want. How are the dev suppose to know what you are asking for when you don't even know?

[Evertal]

The defining key to Sandbox is Player driven may it be economy, world, events or whatever. As opposed to themepark which is dev driven, i.e the developers provide the content.

 

Now, you gotta ask yourself this:

 

Taking into account all those posting on this forum, would you want them to drive your gameplay or would you like BW to do it?

 

To me the answer is simple, I happily put my faith into BW hands instead of letting spoiled 7331-kids ruin my time off.

 

Also keep in mind that the level of enjoyment of a sandbox game follows the time spend in game. So if your RL dont allow for playing games more then a hour or two a day then Sandbox is probably not for you.

 

Now, do I think Sandbox is bad? No, it's just not my kind of game.

Would I like some Sandbox elements in SWTOR? Hell yea, if not for anything else then to make the forums a bit more quiet.

[Darth_Grissom]

To be honest I'm getting a little annoyed with people asking for sandboxes but can't break it down into specifics on what they want. How are the dev suppose to know what you are asking for when you don't even know?

 

In Ultima Online I was

 

0. I wasANYTHING i wanted to be. How can this be? How can one be a knight for a week wielding a sword and then next week be a mage carrying a staff? Simple, in UO, You had SKILLS to level instead of levels for a toon that was a class. If you wanted to change your character from being a Knight into a begger ((yes there was a skill called begging)). you could level up begging and your swordsmanship skill would decrease. I want that back.

 

1. An actual real estate agent for my whole server. People came to me to sell their hourses. I want that back.

 

2. An exterior house builder and an interier designer for player houses. I want that back.

 

3. a Dungon crawler. I already have that

 

4. A bounty hunter. I killed player kills for a reward that players put on each other's heaD. I want that back

 

5. An rper. Everyone on my server RPed. If you didnt, you typed OOC before your statement. I want that b ack.

 

6. A rare item collector. Some items in UO would not be able to be picked up except after a certain amount of time. One item I knew was able to be gotten once a YEAR. Some items were inique to a server meaning, ONE PERSON had it. Most if not all rare items were cosmetic and decorations for homes. I want that back.

 

7. A vendor mall manager and owner. I would sell things to players on my vendors in MY HOUSE. No AC, nothing. People came from all over to visit my house because I always made sure I had the best prices. I want that back

 

8. A tamer, where I would tame dragons and rare mounts for other tamers and sell them to those other people. I want thtat back.

 

In SWTOR I am a

 

1. Dungon Crawler

2. Pvper

 

There are more but I think you get the idea. Saddly, looking at that list and then looking at SWTOR I can see where SWTOR lacks dispite how fun it is for the wife and I. The day a Ultima Online 2 comes out, I am done with theme park games, unless of course it had theme park elements such as raiding and pvping in it.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Darth_Grissom

[ShardTosk]

The ultimate MMO will be:

 

 

Themepark like SWTOR while LEVELING.

 

Sandbox like SWG/EVE while at MAX LEVEL.

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe any developer in the future will understand the need for sandbox elements at max level but having the leveling process be like SWTOR.

 

No thank you. Sandbox while LEVELING too, I want to level more then one guy in the same faction without it being torture.

Besides SWTOR isn't a themepark. It's pretty much the same "ride" over and over with a few bumps in the track (class quests).

[ActionPrinny]

I don't see how having 3 factions would solve anything. There will still always be a more popular faction. In DAOC Albion generally had as many players as Midgard and Hibernia combined on a realm. Hibernia generally always the lowest.

 

And even the DAOC Mythic devs were incompetent. Yes they had a good idea with RvR, but anything related to class balance was a joke. Bandaid on top of bandaid, never addressing the core issues. They also tended to cave to the biggest group of whiners at the time. (Usually Albion)

 

I had a Bard originally and retired her for a Nightshade instead. Assassins were the most balanced right at release (after you couldn't stay stealthed after a 1-hit kill. I agree that was unfair) Then all the successive changes to them only made them originally overpowered, then later on irrelevant as they just gave "Iwin" buttons to their counter classes.

 

AKA: If you are wearing cloth and decide to walk around alone, you SHOULD die from a stealth attack. On the flipside of that, if the caster finds you unstealthed at range you rightfully get smoked by them.

 

Instead you got stuff like Shadowmaster pets intercepting from-stealth attacks while they stand 30yards from their owner. (And later an ability to make them like L80 for 60 secs) Wizards getting instant root spells. Longbowman being able to trip you, then shield stun you and fire an aimed shot pointblank into you, then if still losing just grapple you until friends came. Meanwhile Assassin from-stealth openers went from taking 90% of a casters health at release to maybe 30% in TOA.

[Goretzu]

Finding a group is content?

 

In original EQ1, yes it pretty much was.

 

So were a lot of other things that wouldn't be viewed as such now, trading from selling to buying and strange things in-between. Nothing like the "order on-line for instant delivery" Auction Houses that came later (in EQ1 - WoW didn't invent them).

 

 

 

 

 

The WAR mythic devs were craptastic at best, you want the real mythic go look at DAoC (still has a healthy sub rate) IMO find some of the original mythic devs and hand PvP/RvR over to them. It would flourish, the problem with the current mythic devs is they weren't around for the DAoC launch and tried to just create WoW but PvP instead of PvE.

 

Its truly a shame that they learned nothing from the Dev Vets at mythic and what they created.

 

 

DAoC was the better RvR game (it's almost impossible to beat 3 factions with 2, and DAoC's frontier design was much better than WARs 3 x basin idea).

 

But currently WAR has the best PvP core system for RvR there's pretty much ever been (much more balanced, fluid and better for actual PvP than DAoCs was/is). Annoying they actually have the best engine now too (it's much improved on what was released).

 

I'm just amazed none of that has carried over to SWTOR.

[Goretzu]

I don't see how having 3 factions would solve anything. There will still always be a more popular faction. In DAOC Albion generally had as many players as Midgard and Hibernia combined on a realm. Hibernia generally always the lowest.

 

 

3 factions doesn't solve everything (I'm always bemused why people think it would/could).

 

What it does do is mitigate things, and give you the most self-stabilising system possible.

 

2 factions on the other hand almost always ends up completely 1 sided (as WAR and SWTOR have shown), especially in RvR, it's the worst possible number of factions for that (anything over 2 is better, in fact) and population balance for a 2 faction system is like flipping a coin and getting it to land and stay upright on its edge.

 

Being the underdog faction in a 3+ faction system is a much more pleasant experience, than in a 2 faction one, and conversely being the top dog faction in a 3+ faction system is a much less secure place than in a 2 faction one.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Goretzu

[Oneiros_IV]

EVE is only true sandbox around (if we don't count minecraft) and even it barely manages to keep it that way.

 

Classic model MMO (TOR) is not sandbox compatible by design and no game can be both. I'm totally not against sandbox but I see it as a different dish. L2 and some other games with open world pvp aren't true sandbox btw.

 

I'll play devil's advocate here imagine average Joe McSkywalker building his sand castle out of patiently collected flowers then I show up, kick the castle in his damn face while telling him how ugly his girlfriend is and then post screenshots of his corpse, ruined sandcastle and whining in /1 for everyone to laugh at.

 

(I'd certainly do it given the opportunity)

 

EVE population consists of three categories of people

 

a) those who like to kick others in the face

b) those who like kicking others in the face and don't mind being kicked from time to time (most)

c) and those who weren't kicked in some terrible way yet and will quit the game soon

 

TOR (classic) ppl are different because classic MMO are about

a) creating collections (be that titles, cool looks, achievements or top-notch PVP/PVE gear) all of that is essentially hoarding of ~stuff~ that won't go away.

b) Fair competition, clear results of fair competition, set solid rules, limitations, precise class balance, 5% advantage will cause outrage on forums, it's perfectly normal. (I'm not talking swtor wich is currently unbalanced and has myriad advantageous bugs, just classic model generally)

 

So sandbox first will destroy all the sand castles, even slightest harm to them will drive off majority of SWTOR players in an ocean of tears.

 

After that it will drive off all the competitive ~cybersport~ type of players because these are in for clear ratings, measured performance, ruleset etc.

 

 

Like I said I'm in no way an opponent to sandbox model, just outlined why it will never happen.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Oneiros_IV

[runar_smugler]

I dont like Sandbox. Maybe its because I dont trust that most ppl will construct anything i like.

 

I like to be entertained, but I dont want to do the hassle of making something that entertains, in the same way as I love good movies, but I never ever want to make a movie myself.

 

For me its theme park all the way:)

[Pashgan]

I played sandbox SWG for two+ years. My subscription for SWTOR expires in a month and most likely I'll never reactivate it. Not-sandbox doesn't worth subscription fee. Edited February 17, 2012 by Pashgan

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[Goretzu]

EVE is only true sandbox around (if we don't count minecraft) and even it barely manages to keep it that way.

 

Classic model MMO (TOR) is not sandbox compatible by design and no game can be both. I'm totally not against sandbox but I see it as a different dish. L2 and some other games with open world pvp aren't true sandbox btw.

 

 

I simply don't accept that.

 

There's no reason levels and more sand boxy elements can't go together..... Minecraft has "levels" not a "skill system"!!!

 

 

You can quite easily have an EQ1 system and have sand boxy game play, it'll just be different, which is kinda the point.

[Goretzu]

If you played Eve without dying you played it completely wrong.

 

 

How can you play a supposed sand box game "wrong"?

[jarjarloves]

Sandbox Sandbox Sandbox

 

I never had more fun than playing SWG pre-cu

 

WoW was ok, had fun raiding till I got burnt on gear grind and lack of a dynamic world

 

SWTOR **** this game is the most linear, boring, mmo ever...I hope finally this epic 300M failure gets companies to either take mix of sand box / themepark or when in doubt just sandbox.

 

I do think a themepark for leveling w/sandbox style when at max lvl and of course OPEN WORLDS would be best combo.

 

then go play PRE CU SWG it still exists and you can play it for free.

 

I guarantee with in 1 week you will be back because you will realize how bad it is.

[Skienz]

They dont.

A lot do, but take eve online for example

 

I would say the same amount of theme park mmo's fail too

 

 

Eve has around 40K people logged on at peak times. Hardly a success story but probably enough to keep their head above water.

[jarjarloves]

Yes, in the context of SWTOR it was positively sand boxy, as I said originally.

 

ok clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. In no way was EQ1 a sandbox.

 

Even compared to SWTOR it wasn't sandbox. Compared to SWToR it is a buggy, hard mess with 0 content. I can't even think of a single sandbox feature that EQ1 had.

[Goretzu]

ok clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. In no way was EQ1 a sandbox.

 

Even compared to SWTOR it wasn't sandbox. Compared to SWToR it is a buggy, hard mess with 0 content. I can't even think of a single sandbox feature that EQ1 had.

 

No it wasn't a "sand box" (but then what is? SWG, AC or UO wasn't either, it just had elements), but it was very much more sand boxy than SWTOR is, comparatively. You had to do most things for yourself (from navigation to getting light source so you could see at night), there was very little guidance of any sort .

 

 

By most peoples definition it seems the opposite of theme park is sand box. I disagree, but if we're back to what is a sand box, well that is a circular argument that means nothing in the end, as there are as many definitions as you can think of, and no game encompasses them all (or even most of them).

 

 

But "sand boxy", yes EQ1 (originally) was much more so than SWTOR is, comparatively.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Goretzu

[jarjarloves]

No it wasn't a "sand box" (but then what is? SWG or UO wasn't either, it just had elements), but it was very much more sand boxy than SWTOR is, comparatively. You had to do most things for yourself (from navigation to getting light source so you could see a night), there was very little guidance of any sort .

 

 

By most peoples definition it seems the opposite of theme park is sand box. I disagree, but if we're back to what is a sand box, well that is a circular argument that means nothing in the end, as there are as many definitions as you can thing of, and no game encompasses them all.

 

 

But "sand boxy", yes EQ1 (originally) was much more so than SWTOR is, comparatively.

 

SWG very much was a sandbox. UO was not it was a PVP mmo.

 

 

Please tell me what elements of a sandbox game EQ1 had?

Edited February 17, 2012 by jarjarloves

[Huaracocha]

SWG did not run for 9 years. It died long before the CU and NGE.

 

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/06/15/ex-star-wars-galaxy-designer-talks-nge/

 

I don't know if this has been pointed out yet, but you're completely misreading this article. The 200k subs and 10k pcm bleed was at the point of the NGE directive - i.e. after the CU. The CU caused this bleed effect and the "failure" you speak of.

 

Prior to CU most estimates put the subs around 300k, the article yourself mentions that it was making a profit and it was indeed regarded as one of the more successful MMO's at that time.

 

WoW numbers are irrelevant. Nobody has ever gotten anywhere close so let's not compare. The only games to get even a significant fraction are the Korean / Asian ones such as Aion. If you take WoW out of the picture and compare other MMO's in the Western market, SWG pre-CU was categorically a success.

 

It just wasn't a big enough success for LA / SOE so they decided to ruin it (twice).

 

 

EDIT - and you're wrong again..

 

then go play PRE CU SWG it still exists and you can play it for free.

 

I guarantee with in 1 week you will be back because you will realize how bad it is.

 

It doesn't exist. It is being worked on by SWGemu and SWGANH. SWGemu have a test server and an old / abandoned code server up. Neither is complete nor do they claim to be. We are still a long way off a fully functional pre-CU emu.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Huaracocha

[jarjarloves]

I don't know if this has been pointed out yet, but you're completely misreading this article. The 200k subs and 10k pcm bleed was at the point of the NGE directive - i.e. after the CU. The CU caused this bleed effect and the "failure" you speak of.

 

Prior to CU most estimates put the subs around 300k, the article yourself mentions that it was making a profit and it was indeed regarded as one of the more successful MMO's at that time.

 

WoW numbers are irrelevant. Nobody has ever gotten anywhere close so let's not compare. The only games to get even a significant fraction are the Korean / Asian ones such as Aion. If you take WoW out of the picture and compare other MMO's in the Western market, SWG pre-CU was categorically a success.

 

It just wasn't a big enough success for LA / SOE so they decided to ruin it (twice).

 

not what i was saying. It was bleeding subs long before CU.

Edited February 17, 2012 by jarjarloves

[Ratior]

Sandbox with PvP.

[Huaracocha]

not what i was saying. It was bleeding subs long before CU.

 

Do you have a source for that? I've never seen anything reliable on pre-CU numbers, only the general idea that it was somewhere around 300k, fairly stable, and making a profit at that level.

 

My own experience in-game was that the noticeable bleed didn't really start until CU.

 

Of course I could be wrong and would be interested to see some numbers

[Goretzu]

SWG very much was a sandbox. UO was not it was a PVP mmo.

 

 

Please tell me what elements of a sandbox game EQ1 had?

 

 

Could you do anything you wanted in SWG? No. You could do somethings and couldn't do others.

 

Therefore it wasn't a sand box, it was an MMORPG with a lot of sand boxy elements, and fewer restrictive elements.

 

UO had as least as many sand boxy elements, and AC had many too.

 

 

 

 

Now if you're comparing EQ1 to UO or SWG or AC EQ1 would be the least sand boxy, but compared to SWTOR it was.

EQ1 was in some ways more sand boxy than later games that had specific "sand box" paths because the players made it so, due to the lack of restriction and support.

 

EQ1 had many none combat trader characters, there were pure Taxi characters, there was ones that purely sold their buffs, there were even people that made a living guiding people across the world and in dungeons!

 

There was no support for this in the game, of course, yet they still sprung up, along with player casinos and many other things.

 

EQ1 was sand boxy in the context of give players a fairly functional world and no guidance or hand holding and see what they come up with, compared to SWTOR there is nothing of that.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Goretzu