Midichlorien Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Two reasons come to mind: 1) If this is your second MMO, you will never recapture the feeling of wonder you got from your first. This is likely some kind of metaphor or life lesson 2) WoW has seven years of post-release content development packed in. TOR is new. I would suggest that TOR's competitive advantage is not the volume of content, but its quality. For a new game, TOR is remarkably stable and has a good amount of endgame content. The question now is, how quickly can they add, adjust and balance? Good poost I agree with for the most. My addiction to EQ will never be surpassed. Just one protest to the point "quality": Sorry, but I think the technical state of the game on release was an utter poor performance. I don't mean bugs, but design flaws (UI, Market place menu, crafting itself, luck based PvP reward system...). I keep playing this game because I am hooked by the storyline and I like the PvP WZ (with exception of Illum, but Hutball is great) and I level alters and hope BW will fix this stuff (that wouldn't have needed a fix at all, if thing go normal), but my patience isn't endless and it's not angelic and I will continnue to call b.u.l.l.s.h.i.t "b.u.l.l.s.h.i.t". No pink glasses to watch the world, not at all. Edited February 16, 2012 by Midichlorien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirRobin Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) In my previous mmorpgs, what kept me playing in endgame was PvP. Never been a huge endgame PvE'er but thought TOR would change that trend for me. Well TOR has fallen far short on the PvP mark, for me, and the PvE has not proved as engaging as I had hoped it would be. So I'm leveling alts but while the different class story is nice, dealing with the exact same world stories is getting tiresome. I recall having more leveling options in most of my previous mmorpg. Honestly I wasn't paying any attention to GW2 before, but I am actually starting to look now. Edited February 23, 2012 by SirRobin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Also, i feel there is nothing to strive for... Like in WOW (Vanilla mostly) we had top guilds running around with fancy gear that i could not even dream of getting. In a weird way that made me more motivated to play Ding ding... winner. Game designers have gone way too over the top with just handing stuff out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jontyld Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Ding ding... winner. Game designers have gone way too over the top with just handing stuff out. ok. I usually buy into the whole "dont compare games to 2004 wow, they should be compared to 2012 wow" myself. But seriously? Right now you're comparing whats being "handed out" to what would have been UBRS loot. If in a few months when we start seeing content higher than entry level, I'll be right there with you, but for now this stuff is all entry level, and the rakata stuff being more along the lines of +1 versions of columi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 ok. I usually buy into the whole "dont compare games to 2004 wow, they should be compared to 2012 wow" myself. But seriously? Right now you're comparing whats being "handed out" to what would have been UBRS loot. If in a few months when we start seeing content higher than entry level, I'll be right there with you, but for now this stuff is all entry level, and the rakata stuff being more along the lines of +1 versions of columi. Do you know how long it took to see the first Epic in WoW? Do you know how long it took before the average player got an Epic of their own? Everything currently being "handed out" in TOR is the equivalent of Vanilla WoW - which included Onyxia and Molten Core which had both Tier 1 and Tier 2 raid items. So, considering people had their first "purple" here in TOR, no matter who you were, within a week or two of playing, says a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 If youre bored its because you are boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumpiduke Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Ding ding... winner. Game designers have gone way too over the top with just handing stuff out. Couldn't agree more. You don't keep subscribers by handing everything out on a silver platter. MMO's need grinds to keep their subscribers interested. I don't understand why that is such a hard concept to grasp. The carrot in TOR is just too easy to catch: 1. Flashpoints can be completely bypassed by doing 8 man easy mode operations; thus, no incentive to do them other than for social points and story. 2. Crew skills are completely lacking and offer no real value, which causes the economy to be non-existant. 3. Artifact gear, in general, is far too easy to get. Prototype gear is essentially a tier that isn't even used. I can't for the life me understand why you basically go from orange modded gear to purples and completely bypass a whole tier of loot. Why is prototype gear even in the game? Might as well just be White > Orange > Purple with the way they throw around supposed 'Artifacts' Bioware expects players to roll alts, but because the leveling experience is so linear, it's hard for me to get excited about playing through some of the incredibly boring and lifeless zones again just to see the personal story Here's to hoping 1.2 adds a feeling of actual progression to a watered down, super casual MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jontyld Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Do you know how long it took to see the first Epic in WoW? Do you know how long it took before the average player got an Epic of their own? Everything currently being "handed out" in TOR is the equivalent of Vanilla WoW - which included Onyxia and Molten Core which had both Tier 1 and Tier 2 raid items. So, considering people had their first "purple" here in TOR, no matter who you were, within a week or two of playing, says a lot. they're different games. the color purple around an item is irrelevant, its the increase in actual quality that matters, and this is all pretty standard with what vanilla wow looked like. I would argue that we don't even have our "molten core" yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumpiduke Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 they're different games. the color purple around an item is irrelevant, its the increase in actual quality that matters, and this is all pretty standard with what vanilla wow looked like. I would argue that we don't even have our "molten core" yet. I disagree that the color is irrelevant. Color indicates progression. People like to see progression on their characters. What happens when all of your items are all purple? Well, as the game dictates now, just get a higher tiered purple which to me is completely unsatisfying. I remember how awesome it felt to find that first epic item in older games. I'm not saying that it should be super grindy like it used to be, but it's clearly too easy to as it is now. My character was in full artifacts after two weeks playing casually. That's not my idea of satisfying progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkiii Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Demanding things in a video game ... Threatening to quit if needs are not met in a video game ... Posting frantically about what is not liked in a video game ... Does this generation even understand what Gaming is anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumpiduke Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Demanding things in a video game ... Threatening to quit if needs are not met in a video game ... Posting frantically about what is not liked in a video game ... Does this generation even understand what Gaming is anymore? That's the thing about MMO's. They're kind of a unique genre because in conjunction with being video games, they're also a service that you're paying for. Repeat customers have a say in any business relationship. That's just how business works. If you want to keep your customers satisfied, you need to know what it is the customer truly wants. Edited February 23, 2012 by Dumpiduke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloro Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 In vanilla WoW I spent 6 months of playing 10 hours every day just to get rank 13. Weren't those added with TBC? I honestly forget, but am fairly certain that no PvP ranks existed at WoW's launch. Why grind PVE gear when you don't require any particular PVE gear to make PVE progress? You've just exposed the fault in one of your underlying assumptions. You clearly assume that players SHOULD grind for PvE gear. Bioware doesn't seem to agree. Progression raiding is not the only model for games, you know. If that's really what you want, you're not very likely to get it here. SWTOR was designed to be casual-friendly, and the devs deliberately removed most of the grinding. So, yes, you can acquire rewards more quickly. Another way of saying it is, you have to suffer through less unpleasantness here to obtain the rewards you seek. After all, "grind" isn't something players generally enjoy or desire. It remains to be seen how the PvE endgame model will work here, longterm. A lot of progression raiders who came over from WoW were quickly disillusioned and became VERY vocal about how this game doesn't meet their needs. I'm curious to see how many of the remainder will adapt, and how many will just go back to WoW. Note: I'm not saying one playstyle is better than the other; only that one game uses one model, and another uses a different one. Some players clearly prefer to have endless treadmills, and some prefer more immediate gratification. Both approaches have their downsides. Treadmills require repetition of content to seek rewards, instead of repetition because it's fun and enjoyable. Immediate gratification leaves players with little in the way of goals to strive for. Personally, I've tried both and for now, I prefer SWTOR's approach. In this game, I do things if they're fun, and not otherwise. I don't feel compelled to grind anything I don't enjoy, simply to get a reward that's only meaningful in the context of the game itself. If I'm not enjoying my activities in a game, I don't much care about my relative level of power in said game. But to each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citronvand Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 In my previous mmorpgs, what kept me playing in endgame was PvP. Never been a huge endgame PvE'er but thought TOR would change that trend for me. Well TOR has fallen far short on the PvP mark, for me, and the PvE has not proved as engaging as I had hoped it would be. So I'm leveling alts but while the different class story is nice, dealing with the exact same world stories is getting tiresome. I recall having more leveling options in most of my previous mmorpg. Honestly I wasn't paying any attention to GW2 before, but I am actually starting to look now. Same here mostly. I think PvE is fun as long as it doesn't require me to join a guild and make a schedule. I play games for fun, period. A game shouldn't feel like a second job and force me to grind so I can get to the fun parts. The whole game should be fun. But PvP I love, but when I say PvP I mostly mean World-PvP. I sure as hell don't mean NHL (National Huttball League). I just find the so called PvP in this game extremely boring and static. But it seems like GW2 is going to fix all these issues and more. I never liked the first one but I am very interested in GW2 after I made some research. A lot of new stuff that breaks the mold in that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirRobin Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So, considering people had their first "purple" here in TOR, no matter who you were, within a week or two of playing, says a lot. Yeah, leveling just seems so fast in TOR. I recall it took me months in vanilla WoW to reach endgame and I played a lot more then than I do now. Bioware expects players to roll alts, but because the leveling experience is so linear, it's hard for me to get excited about playing through some of the incredibly boring and lifeless zones again just to see the personal story This became a much bigger issue for me than even I expected it to be. I understood going in that far less than half the content would be unique to each class. I got that. What I didn't realize was that the rest of the factional content would be identical, except for some different lines during the dialog scenes. When I saw there were so many planets, I figured some would cover the same level ranges so we could level on one instead of the other. Nope. I've always had altitus but it can get almost painful after the second or third time through Dromund Kaas or Coruscant. Here's to hoping 1.2 adds a feeling of actual progression to a watered down, super casual MMO. Lord I hope so. Keeping my fingers crossed. If not? I'll probably just quit until we get an actual xpac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirRobin Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Weren't those added with TBC? I honestly forget, but am fairly certain that no PvP ranks existed at WoW's launch. The "honorocalypse" was a few months after launch. The Honor system was actually in the manual that came in the box, but they waited months before finally implementing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Demanding things in a video game ... Threatening to quit if needs are not met in a video game ... Posting frantically about what is not liked in a video game ... Does this generation even understand what Gaming is anymore? MMORPGs are not designed as simple video games. They are intended to be consumed more as a hobby, and something we pay an ongoing service fee for. We are customers, we are consumers, we have the right to demand things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnokar Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Two reasons come to mind: 1) If this is your second MMO, you will never recapture the feeling of wonder you got from your first. This is likely some kind of metaphor or life lesson 2) WoW has seven years of post-release content development packed in. TOR is new. I would suggest that TOR's competitive advantage is not the volume of content, but its quality. For a new game, TOR is remarkably stable and has a good amount of endgame content. The question now is, how quickly can they add, adjust and balance? Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khryn Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You need to move to an RP server and start getting some serious ERP going on. MMO Burnout. Playing any game for more than 5+ hours a week is bad. Familiarity breeds contempt. Etc etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citronvand Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 MMORPGs are not designed as simple video games. They are intended to be consumed more as a hobby, and something we pay an ongoing service fee for. We are customers, we are consumers, we have the right to demand things. I also want to add that considering how much money a game can make, it's pretty much serious business from a uhh business perspective. So they should really care what we - the paying customers - think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghep Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I got bored too, un-subbed. Might come back after awhile if I start to miss it, or if they add something and I'm like, "OMG! I MUS DO DAT!!!" Though I highly doubt it, I had my fun with, don't regret playing it at all, just a standard game. =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZedFighter Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 ToR took too much of a copy and paste approach, i feel like i have already played this game. Nail meet head! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirRobin Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I also want to add that considering how much money a game can make, it's pretty much serious business from a uhh business perspective. So they should really care what we - the paying customers - think. Oh I am sure they do really care but its pretty much a "catch 22" I think. Make it too hard and bunches will get frustrated and quit. Make it too easy and bunches will get bored and quit. You would think that there should be a "sweet spot" somewhere between the two for "most." Maybe there isn't. Maybe it has to be one or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khryn Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I got bored too, un-subbed. Might come back after awhile if I start to miss it, or if they add something and I'm like, "OMG! I MUS DO DAT!!!" Though I highly doubt it, I had my fun with, don't regret playing it at all, just a standard game. =/ See? This is the way to do it. No big "THROW ME A PARADE I'M QUITTING" threads... Acknowledged he's bored, left the door open to come back if it suits him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghep Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 ToR took too much of a copy and paste approach, i feel like i have already played this game. Yeah, you're kinda right, but you will probably be E-destroyed over that. Might have already, haven't read through the whole thread yet. =p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citronvand Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Oh I am sure they do really care but its pretty much a "catch 22" I think. Make it too hard and bunches will get frustrated and quit. Make it too easy and bunches will get bored and quit. You would think that there should be a "sweet spot" somewhere between the two for "most." Maybe there isn't. Maybe it has to be one or the other. Yes, of course. But it was more of a reply to a reply to one who thought we shouldn't state things like "If X is not fixed I will quit" and similar critique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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