Healing - the worst imbalance in PVP history, in it's current form

[Ziljin]

I completely agree with the OP and it seems so obvious that it boggles my mind that people would disagree. We had the same problem in WoW. Why they decided to repeat it is beyond me.

[RealAeiouy]

The main issue is that healing requires very little effort to do in regards to team tactics, while stopping it is significantly harder. Let's assume a typical situation

 

Squad A) Guarded Healer + Tank.

Squad B) DPS + DPS

 

The Optimal solution is that one DPS stuns the tank [to prevent taunts], while the other interrupts the Healer, and begins to dps. The second DPS then joins and interrupts the second heal attempt while dpsing. Once the tank is unstunned [3-4 gcds], the first DPS goes and uses his stun on him again before turning back to the Healer to DPS. During this time, it is important that if they have any dots that require GCD to place them on both the Healer and the tank.

 

The issue is, it is substantially harder to have two dps players operate efficiently in tandem without pushing the Healer into Resolve or wasting their interrupt on the same move; however the Healer/Tank combo merely spams taunts and heals without the use of any planning prior. It's ever so important that the tank cannot get his taunts out, since those are the true damage killers once factored into Guard. Everyone blows their best abilities at the start of the fight, and so a burst can become a joke after a taunt.

 

Even still, the easiest strategy is to always dot the healer, dot the Tank, and AOE. The tank will receive damage 1.5x the usual damage from the dots, while still taking the damage that is being handed to him from the healer. As a Hybrid Operative Healer, I can have 7k worth of dots [ticks done in 20 seconds] on the Healer and Tank within 3 global cooldowns. As long as others are focusing down the healer, the tank won't be able to receive the attention he needs. By placing dots first, you vastly ignore the damage reduction of taunts as well.

 

Just like in Team Fortress 2, Medic + Heavy > PUB Teams. They'll dominant, since it requires coordinated tactics to defeat the synergy.

 

It is signigicantly easier to effectively dps than it is to heal.

[zoofar]

I completely agree with the OP and it seems so obvious that it boggles my mind that people would disagree. We had the same problem in WoW. Why they decided to repeat it is beyond me.

 

Is the message that you are of the opinion - and the OP - that healing needs to be toned down in PvP?

 

If so, the OP has won a medal for most complicated way to post an opinion ever.

[Lochat]

Ugh, challengers posting about balance.

[KyoMamoru]

It is signigicantly easier to effectively dps than it is to heal.

 

To mindlessly Dps a dummy with a simple rotation, yes; however to actually DPS in tandem with another to take down a Healer+Tank? I think not. The ease of use certainly goes to the Healer/Tank combo over the dps/dps. The healer/Tank will hit their optimal configuration far easier than the Dps/dps, since it ultimately falls down to the Healer using LOS to absorb less damage while ccing/doting/slowing dps threats, and the tank taunting/pulling/ccing/aoeing. Timing is left to the Dps/dps to figure out, since that's the only way to take down the Healer without taking a significantly longer period of time to do so. The longer a fight goes on, the better off the Healer/Tank will be, while the DPS/DPS needs properly timed CC/Burst to win.

 

A random Healer/tank can work through not having voice chat or having teamed together prior far easier than a dps/dps can. I don't see it as an issue, since the Healer/Tank is supposed to be a force multiplier, while the Dps/dps is just straight additive. It requires high levels of cooperation to make two DPS work together in the same regards.

Edited February 15, 2012 by KyoMamoru

[Scionset]

Although I think I agree with the OP a little bit, Stuns in this game are way too long not to take out a healer with 1 or 2 dps. There is always the focus fire too. Although I have fought a few Troopers that it literally took 5 dps beating on him to take him down and this is not using LOS at all, just standing there. I think some of the Healing classes need to be looked at. I think dropping healing a bit along with the length of the resolve bar being shortened.

 

Stuns was one of the things I hated about rogues and Feral Druids in wow. a well geared Rogue could take you down before you could do anything. yes you could trinket out, but that is not always up. In this game you could use your trinket ability and the resolve bar is still long enough where you could still easily die. just my 2 cents.

[DarkfallDC]

Personally, I feel as though there is not enough reward for successfully interrupting a heal.

 

Granted, this would require fixing ability delay first to promote juking / fake casting, but I feel that a lockout timer on interrupts would help with the problem of simply being unable to stop a healer from doing his job.

 

However, to prevent it from being too broken, where a healer simply gets interrupted, stunlocked, then interrupted again, I'd suggest resolve playing some part in the equation, not stopping them from being interrupted, but rather lowering or altogether removing the lockout time while white-barring.

[Redmarx]

Personally, I feel as though there is not enough reward for successfully interrupting a heal.

 

Granted, this would require fixing ability delay first to promote juking / fake casting, but I feel that a lockout timer on interrupts would help with the problem of simply being unable to stop a healer from doing his job.

 

However, to prevent it from being too broken, where a healer simply gets interrupted, stunlocked, then interrupted again, I'd suggest resolve playing some part in the equation, not stopping them from being interrupted, but rather lowering or altogether removing the lockout time while white-barring.

 

 

The HPS of a healer relative to people's health bars in this game is VERY low.

 

In WoW, 1 big heal would restore up to 60% of a player's health, so you basically had to create windows of opportunity with CC to burst down a target while their healer was unable to get a heal off.

 

In SWTOR, a big heal is around 20% of a player's health. For interrupting to cause a full lockout, healers would need their healing output buffed by around 200% to compensate. It is not a good idea.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Redmarx

[Darth__Carnal]

I want my five minutes back, you owe me five minutes.

 

Are you really complaining about healing in PVP? Truly?

 

If you have such a huge problem with healers doing what they do, then dont fight them.

 

^ This is the most idiotic thing I have read in the last 10 minutes.

 

1. Truly ? Did you read the post ?

 

2. How do not fight someone in a WZ filled with DPS/HEALER specs ? All I fight is Sorc/Sage specs because everyone is flocking to that class because its the flavor of the month, because it is OP.

 

3. Are you suggesting quitting WZ early ?

 

To the Original Poster, yes, you are right, healers are out healing everyone to the point that 6 lvl 50 characters, (yes, six..) pounding on 1 healer still may not grant a simple kill. The numbers need to be looked at more carefully by the dev team.

 

I am not sure if the Surge nerf was the answer or if it made things worst, only time will tell.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Darth__Carnal

[ErnieVega]

it sounds like to OP just wants this to be completely a numbers game. one build/gear set is mathematically better and should win etc... healers add more randomness to the fights making their outcomes less predictable. A good healer can change to shape of a battle, and adds tactical depth to what would otherwise just be a total zergfest.

[Youmu]

To the Original Poster, yes, you are right, healers are out healing everyone to the point that 6 lvl 50 characters, (yes, six..) pounding on 1 healer still may not grant a simple kill. The numbers need to be looked at more carefully by the dev team.

I want to see an Operative healer tank 6 players... Even a single competent DPS is enough to force me to heal myself while running around pylons, boxes, and everything else to break the LoS simply not die. Add a second guy to the bunch and I'm dead. Or cloaking the hell out, disabling myself for 10 seconds + whatever time it takes for me to heal up.

[Aphexdash]

The biggest roadblock is that healers think they should be able to outheal a dps attacking them. I have encountered this attitude (mostly in MMOs) a lot recently.

 

Healers are a support class, they aren't tanks. They are the one the team is supposed to protect. At the moment, a full team of healers would beat anything (I have nightmares about a full team of Sorc healers *shudder*). I mean there are PvP videos of people outhealing 2 or more dps attacking them whilst they dps AS WELL and end up killing them.

 

Healers should fear DPS, not just brush them off/ignore them. They should have to use utility to escape them, not lol while spamming 1 or 2 heals.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Aphexdash

[KnightVane]

OP too many words.

 

Short answer is that healer is under represented in the game because it is far from over powered. I will always stack at the base of the medal table as a healer that heals for the benefit of the team win, and cannot kill anything 1 to 1 unless they are really bad (which is fine I never started a healer to be uber 1v1 pvper).

 

If you made a healer any less apealing you would find the few of us left who didn't already respec or reroll would do so.

[RealAeiouy]

The biggest roadblock is that healers think they should be able to outheal a dps attacking them. I have encountered this attitude (mostly in MMOs) a lot recently.

 

Healers are a support class, they aren't tanks. They are the one the team is supposed to protect. At the moment, a full team of healers would beat anything (I have nightmares about a full team of Sorc healers *shudder*). I mean there are PvP videos of people outhealing 2 or more dps attacking them whilst they dps AS WELL and end up killing them.

 

Healers should fear DPS, not just brush them off/ignore them. They should have to use utility to escape them, not lol while spamming 1 or 2 heals.

 

 

 

Thinking a healer should not be capable of out healing a single dps class is to not understand a healers role in team pvp.

[RealAeiouy]

To mindlessly Dps a dummy with a simple rotation, yes; however to actually DPS in tandem with another to take down a Healer+Tank? I think not. The ease of use certainly goes to the Healer/Tank combo over the dps/dps. The healer/Tank will hit their optimal configuration far easier than the Dps/dps, since it ultimately falls down to the Healer using LOS to absorb less damage while ccing/doting/slowing dps threats, and the tank taunting/pulling/ccing/aoeing. Timing is left to the Dps/dps to figure out, since that's the only way to take down the Healer without taking a significantly longer period of time to do so. The longer a fight goes on, the better off the Healer/Tank will be, while the DPS/DPS needs properly timed CC/Burst to win.

 

A random Healer/tank can work through not having voice chat or having teamed together prior far easier than a dps/dps can. I don't see it as an issue, since the Healer/Tank is supposed to be a force multiplier, while the Dps/dps is just straight additive. It requires high levels of cooperation to make two DPS work together in the same regards.

 

 

 

I really don't think I could disagree more. Two dps working together takes little communication and awareness. A tank/healer combo requires much more.

[TheronFett]

There is a lot of rambling and also a lot of truth to what the OP says. Healing in this game is overpowered. Maybe not the heals, but the near limitless resource pool and the amount of classes who can heal.

 

I agree that there is an imbalance. A healer should not be able to infinitely heal themselves while at the same time beat on someone w/ double their armor and win...consistently. It shouldn't take 3-4 people to focus down a single healer.

[SWB-NL]

The biggest roadblock is that healers think they should be able to outheal a dps attacking them. I have encountered this attitude (mostly in MMOs) a lot recently.

 

Healers are a support class, they aren't tanks. They are the one the team is supposed to protect.

 

If a healer were unable to outheal a single DPS, it would be essentially pointless to have healing in PvP. If a single healer cannot even counteract a single DPS, it would be more efficient to bring zero healers and just replace them with DPS, since killing the other team faster would be more effective than having this healer do healing which can't counter that single DPS. Quite simply why would you bring a healer if he can't survive against a single DPS? Why would you bring a healer then, if as a result double DPS would easily beat healer + DPS since the healer can't even counteract the one DPS.

 

This is why in many MMOs the balance was set at healers who are not being harassed being able to outheal the output of two damage dealers. This would allow a healer + DPS to compete with two DPS players, it coming down to whether the healer + DPS survive the double DPS before they can wear them down, with the outcome depending on who uses peels and interrupts the best.

 

Personally speaking, I have no problem with healers as they are in the current game. I have no problems killing or at the very least harassing them into ineffectiveness as a Kinetic Shadow (allowing my teammates to kill the DPS in the meantime). My one gripe in general is how little interrupting a spell currently comparatively matters (since it only locks out the spell which was interrupted), which can make it a little frustrating to see the healer just cast another heal instead. That said if they started implementing school lockouts or the like, healing might have to be toned up (as well as ability to kite for some 'casters') to compensate for this, since I don't consider healing overall to be overpowered right now.

 

 

The OP as a whole comes of as a long rambling statement by a person who tries to hide his ignorance behind a wall of text in an effort to seem informed and more insightful than other players. It's a lot of text, but has very little logic or substance, depending on a ridiculous concept which has never been used and makes zero sense (maximum potential health) and contrived situations of small scale combat. The reality in PvP is that it's a team game, where shockingly both sides have healers which are very much capable of being shut down or bursted down. You can keep trying to come up with hypothetical situations where supposedly the healer's side has infinite health and the side with only DPSers does not, but this is not how things work in reality. The healer's team will have considerably lower DPS output meaning it will take a fair amount of time to wear down the DPS players. Moreover burst DPS will force healers to use a lot of less efficient heals, and will run them out of resources eventually. (A healer cannot exactly heal indefinitely at maximum power, which is required to keep up with multiple players focusing a single player)

 

In the end, having healing and tanking in PvP makes it a far more interesting team effort than just putting teams made out of DPSers only seeing who can burst down the other team quickest, and every player dying in a matter of seconds when attacked.

Edited February 15, 2012 by SWB-NL

[DcyfR]

As a combat medic. I sometimes tank 3 people just healing myself and running around. While doing this my team kills them.

 

What makes healing OP the most is that on voidstar and alderan if you have 2-3 good heals to can easily win objectives as nobody dies.

[Xsorus]

There is a lot of rambling and also a lot of truth to what the OP says. Healing in this game is overpowered. Maybe not the heals, but the near limitless resource pool and the amount of classes who can heal.

 

I agree that there is an imbalance. A healer should not be able to infinitely heal themselves while at the same time beat on someone w/ double their armor and win...consistently. It shouldn't take 3-4 people to focus down a single healer.

 

A. A healer can't just heal himself and kill some dude at the same time, If that is happening to you, get something besides greens.

 

B. It doesn't take 3-4 people to focus down a single healer in this game, It might take 3-4 people to focus down a healer who's being guarded and a tank is taunting the people.... But no.. it will not 3-4 to kill a Healer.

[Falkonwing]

@OP

I guess you never played a healer in this game, or any other MMo.

 

Yes I play a healer and i hope nobody even listens to your "great" ideas...

You want to balance the healerrole around a modell that can never work out in fight with more than 4 persons involved.

[_Flin_]

There is a lot of rambling and also a lot of truth to what the OP says. Healing in this game is overpowered. Maybe not the heals, but the near limitless resource pool and the amount of classes who can heal.

 

Well, no. The OP should concentrate more on the pretty girls instead of the other stuff, when they take him down, to the Paradise City.

 

 

The argument is beyond flawed.

If dps > hps => Damage dealer wins.

If hps > dps => Healer doesn't die.

 

The potential limitless amount of healing done (which is capped by the max life) is counterbalanced by the potential limitless amount of damage done when someone gets healed. It is not a constant but a flowing variable. It's the derivative of the healing / damage function that matters. No absolute values.

 

OP thought he had a moment of clarity and found an eternal truth. But in fact, it is really trivial.

[Uzed]

Incontrovertible fact: A character with 10k health can have a maximum damage done to him of 10k. At 10,001 damage he is already dead.

A team of 10 guys with 10k health each have a maximum amount of damage they can absorb of 100k.

Pretty simple.

Incontrovertible fact: Strategy games require strategy. Pretty simple.

 

It's quite sad how many people can't move beyond thinking that they are either being attacked, thinking I am complaining about my personal experience in the game, or thinking we need their advice on how to PvP better.

 

Just because you preface your posts by saying "any one who replies with A, B, or C, is incorrect" that doesn't make those replies incorrect. In your case, they very well might all be true:

 

A) By saying that healing is unfair you are attacking all healers.

B) By reading your posts, we can tell that you are indeed complaining, most likely because of personal experience.

C) By what you post about pvp mechanics and strategy, it's evident that you need to PvP better.

 

The fact of the matter is that healing is a fundamental game mechanic. It will not go away, ever. Join the club of people who know at least one thing about large scale pvp strategy and "kill the healers first".

Edited February 15, 2012 by Uzed

[Liriana]

I'm sure this will cheese off a lot of people who play healing classes. I'm well aware of the arguments that healing classes are weak, easily killed or otherwise countered.

 

 

In what reality were you PVPing? I cannot remember a single game with PVP that did not have some form of healing. PVP is not just a DPS race, it invloves at its best a group dynamic, knowing what classes/who is healing and either CCing or bursting them down. You can also try aoeing damage to overload the healers ability to keep everyone up(not the best idea depending on class but sometimes viable)

 

PVP at its core is eliminating your opponents, it is not a dps race. Some of hte best PVP classes were not burst but high control/CC with moderate dps.

[DervimNorth]

I just love how OP lumps up all the healers together. Well, sorry to say, but as a merc I can't do both dps and healing at the same time and I can't keep healing non-stop. Well, I can-do the healing scan(1.5sec)=>rapid scan(2.5sec heal)=>rapid shots to cool off/till healing scan cd resets=>healing scan again. The snap is that it takes 1.5+2.5 seconds with a 6 seconds cooldown for a healing scan... And it still isn't enough to outheal the damage that gets delivered in a meantime.

 

Sure I can spam my 2.5sec big heal non-stop, but that gets me overheated in a matter of seconds, after which I can only do rapid shots. Than again, I can always pop my supercharged gas and go on healing frenzy... Oh wait! I need to collect 30 charges first and it only last for a few seconds.

 

Of course there's the whole damage dealing part, you know-it's when I stop healing and actually trying to hurt you...with a 1.5sec cast that gets me overheated just as fast as spamming my rapid scan... And it won't be all that effective, by the way.

 

So as a healer merc I simply can't do both dps and healing at the same time. In fact, I can only prolong the inevitable.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that OP/scoundrel healing is no better. I remember pretty well, how two healer-scoundrels could barely keep my health up while I had jug offloading at me. Now, I'm no expert on op healing, but those two weren't only spamming their default healing.

 

 

Which leads me to believe that if merc and op can't really outheal burst and constant flowing damage, that leaves us with sorcs... Good luck balancing those out! If you nerf'em for pvp they end up being total gimps in pve. And the sad part is- you can't really pve without of them.

[der_mawel]

strong heal makes the game more difficult to play in pvp as focused dmg, burst dmg and interrupts/cc need to be coordinated better in order to score a kill. a kill becomes a team effeort and solo players have less chances to kill anything on their own so they start articulating their dislikes in the forums.

 

heal gives us the advantage to choose our targets by priority, not by the pobbability of killing the target beofore getting killed. without heal the fighting will become chaotic and wont punish lack of teamplay in a matter appropriate for an mmo.

 

besides in swtor healers are very weak since they cant even heal themselves up against a singel dd let alone dealing reasonable dmg to a dd AND healing up against him.

 

skill is not only how well u use your abilities but also how good youre tactics are. the presence of healers forces special tactics against them, as well as the presence of guard or stealth or cc.

 

teamplay will allways be superior to soloplay, u could calkl it imbalanced. you could also call unexperienced players imbalanced to experienced ones but itd be stupid becaus u dont want to end up to play /ramdom in am mmo.

 

balancing is only possible for the top lvl players (i dont want to call swtor balanced).