4/5 keys a dps commando/mercs spams is grav/tracer...

[Halefthaut]

An Aresenal Merc only needs 1 or 2 tracers to get their damage out. Those that contantly spam it are just people that don't know the class. You can output more DPS with 1 or 2 tracers + other skills than you can with just tracer with the advantage of not being a sitting duck and prone to interrupts all the time.

 

 

Wrong, you need 5 tracers to max Target Lock

[Loxion]

Wrong, you need 5 tracers to max Target Lock

 

I didn't say anything about Tracer Lock. With say 2xTM (therefore 12% railshot damage increase and 16% armor reduction), railshot, unload etc you can output more damage than 5xTM + the advantage of not being stuck to the same spot for as long.

 

If anyone is stupid / bad enough to get hit by 5xTM and allow Tracer Lock to get maxed out, without interrupting, stunning or LOS the merc then they deserve to die from the spam.

 

Admittedly this is from the perspective of a lvl 33 merc with 23 of those levels almost exclusively gained through WZ. Having said that, I regularly output more damage in a WZ than other mercs in the 45-49 bracket who just spam tracer.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Loxion

[Sykomyke]

I think the OP's point is (something that is clearly lost on all of the tracer missile/grav spammers defending their class) this:

 

The tracer missile does 4-5 different things at the same time.

It provides multiple debuffs, does very adequate damage.

 

Let me put this into a Juggernaut comparison.

 

Sundering assault has a minor cooldown, does the same thing as regular assault except it adds sunder armor stacks.

 

The difference here is that not ONCE (even with full 5 stacks on the target) can I continue to use sunder armor and get that kind of damage from sundering assault. It doesn't hit hard at all.

 

Sure mercs/commandos use other abilities, but their trees suffer from having a sub-par 31 point talent (something that seems to be a huge problem across the board)

 

The problem I see with tracer missile/grav is that it is a product of being too efficient. It gives too much damage, provides too many debuffs, and has a relatively short cast time. Sure it can be interrupted: yadda yadda whine whine.

 

If you don't like the fact of being interrupted don't go arsenal, go pyro. Any classes channeled/cast abilities can be interrupted. Saying "interrupt this spell" is pretty much the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. Sure it stops them from 4 seconds. Good players will just pop their knockback and/or shield to soak up damage until they can continue unloading their abilities in their preferred order again.

 

TLDR: The problem with tracer missile/grav spam is that it's too efficient.

[Cegenaus]

I think the OP's point is (something that is clearly lost on all of the tracer missile/grav spammers defending their class) this:

 

The tracer missile does 4-5 different things at the same time.

It provides multiple debuffs, does very adequate damage.

 

Let me put this into a Juggernaut comparison.

 

Sundering assault has a minor cooldown, does the same thing as regular assault except it adds sunder armor stacks.

 

The difference here is that not ONCE (even with full 5 stacks on the target) can I continue to use sunder armor and get that kind of damage from sundering assault. It doesn't hit hard at all.

 

Sure mercs/commandos use other abilities, but their trees suffer from having a sub-par 31 point talent (something that seems to be a huge problem across the board)

 

The problem I see with tracer missile/grav is that it is a product of being too efficient. It gives too much damage, provides too many debuffs, and has a relatively short cast time. Sure it can be interrupted: yadda yadda whine whine.

 

If you don't like the fact of being interrupted don't go arsenal, go pyro. Any classes channeled/cast abilities can be interrupted. Saying "interrupt this spell" is pretty much the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. Sure it stops them from 4 seconds. Good players will just pop their knockback and/or shield to soak up damage until they can continue unloading their abilities in their preferred order again.

 

TLDR: The problem with tracer missile/grav spam is that it's too efficient.

 

one can counter argument that if all of our offense is in one attack then we are easier to lockdown no?

[hadoken]

one can counter argument that if all of our offense is in one attack then we are easier to lockdown no?

 

Yes, and it's very true. Commandos and Mercenaries are incredibly easy to deal with if you know how they work. If you ignore them and let them do what they do, of course they're going to destroy you.

[DarthBloodloss]

This argument is getting so old, its boring to even try and defend it anymore. Tracer is so non-OP thats its not even funny.

 

Yawn. This thread and all the nQQbs have bored me.

[The_Duck]

This argument is getting so old, its boring to even try and defend it anymore. Tracer is so non-OP thats its not even funny.

 

Yawn. This thread and all the nQQbs have bored me.

 

NO $|-|it!

 

hell, i don't like the fruity pebbles that get thrown at me by consulars but you don't see me crying to mommy about it. GET OVER IT.

[Swaggz]

exactly - the 31 point skill should do more than simple damage , the 11 point skill should not do 6 things in one.

 

Tracer missile is pretty much the same damage as power shot, same cast time, yet it's a skill nobody uses.

 

If there was a reason to use power shot instead of tracer missile maybe it wouldn't be so obsolete.

 

In my previous Juggernaut example both "assault" and "sundering assault" give you 2 rage, sundering assault is on 5 sec cooldown and cannot be spammed, even though it's clearly the better ability, since it gives 4% armor debuff.

 

Anyway - 2 cr and all that.

 

1. You don't get all the tracer missile buffs/debuffs by just going 11 in the tree to get it. You actually have to spec into other parts to get the goodies.

 

2. My 31 point ability does more than "simple" damage. With just 4 stacks of my armor debuff up and hitting my power relic, I can get crits at 4.5k+ in pvp with my "simple" damage attack. Last time I checked, that's ALOT more than TM does on a crit.

 

3. Power Shot and TM aren't the same. Again, look at the tree. PS doesn't have a chance to vent heat on crits like our missiles do. PS doesn't leave a Heat Signature or a Target Lock like TM does.

 

If you want to QQ fine, but at least learn how the tree is set up and how it works. If you did, then you'd know that it would take an entire overhall of the tree inorder to nerf TM.

[Calastrophe]

TLDR: The problem with tracer missile/grav spam is that it's too efficient.

 

Actually, the main problem with tracer/grav is that too many people don't understand it and thus make wild statements about how powerful it is.

[Wesgile]

give a class an ability to hit something instantly for 9001 damage without any cooldown on its first skill at the tree, and then tie every other ability that buffs the skill even further on the tree to that single skill.

that way, the skill would then be immune to any kind of balancing / fix.

 

logic.

[Melasse]

give a class an ability to hit something instantly for 9001 damage

 

Dear sir, you are a troll.

 

If you let the comm/merc stand around long enough to do 9001 damage in 1 hit, you deserve to die in the (grease) fire.

[Miaxi]

This is a troll thread, right?

[CedricDur]

137th thread on the subject.

[Kastchey]

it's not a troll thread , it is a serious issue.

 

Also I never got an answer - why does a ranged class need armor debuff.

 

Speaking of which - why doesn't the trooper's tanking version get an armor debuff?

 

Armor debuff is a tanking skill - I think we all can agree on that.

 

Grav round crits for 3k and adds a ton of debuffs. and buffs for yourself.

 

interrupt you say? Well - it would work if counterspell locked out an ability for 15 secs. It's gone in 2 global cooldowns.

 

I dare you to point 1 other ability on any 1 class that does more things than a grav round/tracer.

 

As a comparison - think how would you feel if sundering assault was spammable and hit for 3k and generated on top of the armor debuff boosts to the juggernaut's other abilities.

 

This ability is freaking ridiculous to the point where the commando themselves see no problem in spamming the "1" key until target is dead.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Kastchey

[Niil]

BH merc casts a 1.5 secs tracer missile.

Several things happen.

 

1) a 1-2k normal or 2-3k crit

2) 4% armor debuff(stacks up to 5 times)

3) vulnerable to rail shot for 15s

4) 6% increase to railshot damage( stacks up to 5 times)

5) 5% damage increase to heatseeker missile (stacks up to 5 times)

6) 30% chance to finish the cooldown of unload and increase it's next damage by 25%

 

 

it shouldn't be as low in the tree it is in , hit as hard and on top of that add a buff/debuff.

 

Should be moved to the top of the tree if it's such a main ability , get a 6 s cooldown, or at the very least get it's damage cut, since it's a debuffer shot after all, or at least get it's cast time increased to 2.5 secs so commandos/mercs have a chance to learn where their other hotkeys are.

 

 

Elephant in the room and all that.

 

Discuss.

 

Or if you're attacking a guarded sorc with 800 expertise you can hit for 500 with it. Woooooooooooooooooo!

[Kastchey]

doesn't expertise cap at 11% damage reduction, or somewhere around there?

 

So instead of 3k you'd hit for 2.7k.

 

Guarding another player is a whole different thread.

 

I shelved my scoundrel( mix bm/champ gear) and my shadow( few champ pieces) to make a commando. All I can say is even in crappy gear I am surpassing anything my other two toons come close to. I suggest you make a merc and stop pulling your hair out. The game is so much more fun when it's easy.

 

 

BM/champ gear vs probably orange/centurion gear. And yet grav round spam wins. Need I say more.

 

 

Also - maybe not pvp related but - your raid leader , if they had to choose between any other class and a commando dps - honestly who do you think they'd choose

Edited March 2, 2012 by Kastchey

[Niil]

doesn't expertise cap at 11% damage reduction, or somewhere around there?

 

So instead of 3k you'd hit for 2.7k.

 

Guarding another player is a whole different thread.

 

I've read diminishing returns kick in pretty hard once you get past 10%. I'm at ~9% myself and that's just over 400 expertise. Why someone would forgo pve set bonuses to acquire almost negligible levels of mitigation I have no idea. Unless maybe they just choose not to pve for rakata. Either way, I don't crit nearly as hard as you're talking about on pvp targets that are geared comparable to me. When I hit someone that's not geared I know it immediately though. Surge nerf hurt a lot.

 

The example I listed above is not exaggerated. I was literally hitting for 520ish on a guarded 840 expertise sorc. That's roughly, before guard, ~1100 damage on a hit. That's nothing to freak out about. This was without me being taunted and he pulled 620k healing in the match. I'm in all champ gear, the guy (I'm pretty sure) was in all bm gear. On someone in that level of gear I wouldn't break 2k on a crit, which requires 10 crit tracer missiles in a row to crit to kill them, for a total of 15 seconds of uninterrupted cast time, presuming they don't heal themselves or kill me first.

[Kastchey]

not pulling numbers out of thin air - 3k crits -2 in rapid succession on a full champ geared sorcerer.

Anyway grav round is the prep skill - it softens the target - it increases the damage of the real high hitting skill(which is supposed to be the high impact bolt and full auto). Instead it's quite useful as main damage skill.

 

think of juggernaut's sundering assault critting for 3k , being spamable , having 30% chance to reset the cooldown on impale(which damage it also increases ) and also giving 25% bonus to say obliterate.

 

That is pretty much the description of grav round except put into a juggernaut terms.

[EthicsGradient]

Speaking of which - why doesn't the trooper's tanking version get an armor debuff?

 

Armor debuff is a tanking skill - I think we all can agree on that.

lol why?

 

As a comparison - think how would you feel if sundering assault was spammable and hit for 3k and generated on top of the armor debuff boosts to the juggernaut's other abilities.

 

Sundering assault is instant. Hurf blurf some more.

[Superastro]

If you're geting killed by a Mercenary casting 1.5 tracer missiles I strongly suggest you to level up one and see for yourself how easily countered you can be.

Tracer Missiles are real good against people who tunnel vision a lot, generaly players new at the game, or at the pvp scene at all.

[Fallerup]

Moving this from the top of the tree wouldn't fix anything... further it would make 0 sense. What would justify having several of the abilities in a tree buff an ability that you have no access to until you top the tree... that is utterly illogical.

 

 

ahemm.. Assassin: Darkness Tier 1: Thrashing blades: increases the damage dealt by Thrash, Lacerate and Volcanic Slash by 3/6%

 

You were saying? Volcanic slash is at the top tier of the deception tree. Grated, it buffs 2 other skills that are base, but it still makes your point invalid.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Fallerup

[Polimeris]

I am quite fine with the issue here.

The only thing I would want is tracer missile and grav round to be dodgeable/deflectable.

 

And maybe a light nerf of the armor penetration given by armor piercing cells.

[Veluthurk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klm2Q7xu_d4

 

tl;dr version skip to 0:25.

[genesiser]

How about instead of nerfing grav round or tracer missle, they fix a bug with the class that's making them stronger than they should be.

 

The "stance" they use while in that spec is bugged. Armor piercing cell (sorry, don't know name of the merc equivalent stance) says it makes your shots ignore 35% armor, but in reality it ignores 35% damage reduction. What this means is that while in this stance all their moves are doing 100% dmg when fighting anything other than a tank because it's only a tank that gets over 35% damage reduction. However even when fighting a tank they don't see much of a drop in damage because a tank will have roughly 50-55% damage reduction which means their skills are only losing 15-20% damage.

 

Compare that to a sorc which sees their non dot moves regularly do 20-30% less dmg and 50-55% less dmg when fighting a tank. Same with every other class. However with that stance it gives a commando or merc an advantage that other classes can't match.

 

Fix that bug and the class will be where it should be.

[loudernoises]

Just to clear up the fallacy that the Mercenary Pyro tree is a lot more mobile than the Arsenal tree. It's simply not true. That tree is built around fishing for Railshot procs that are gained from casting Powershot and Unload, much akin to laying on your debuffs with Tracer missile. Sure, you'll get lucky sometimes and get a proc after 1 Powershot or Unload but it doesn't happen all the time. Thermal detonator's cooldown is equivalent to Heatseeker missile. Yes, you get Incindiary missile but that's a high heat cost ability that usually is used once or with Thermal Sensor Override (personally I use TSO with Fusion Missile but different strokes and all that).

 

I don't think any Merc would argue against having more mobility but not at the expense of damage. Just calling for blanket nerfs because you don't actually know the tree from Adam is kinda silly. I'd like more tools in my tool box but for the time being, I'm going to work within the specs that I'm given. You reduce the damage of Tracer but then you need to adjust the damage of either Heatseeker, Unload or Railshot. The massive amount of tears if they raised Heatseeker and Unloads output would be legendary because those are, by far, our hardest hitting single target abilities.