Real reason why Project is inferior to Shock

[iinnate]

the REAL reason project is far inferior vs shock is because it gimps burst NOT help it like some trolls who play bads all day believes.

 

When a jedi sage cast project at 30 meters(or 35 with pvp set bonus) the delay is close to 3 seconds. When i fight people that are actrually skilled, they will just use vanish/immune/shield abilities to completely negate it, and pretty much all class have one of those abilites, some class even have 2 or more...you may be a troll and ask why would they waste a negate ability on porject? well take a look at this:

 

- Jedi consuler have a talent called upheaval (45% chance to instantly cast a second project debree that does 50% of normal damage)

 

so basically any time i talent proc an instant second rock with my project talent, my opponent sees 2 rock coming out of the ground one after the other in very bold animation with plenty of time, then they just activate immune/vanish/shield it because they know thats when i'm trying to do all my burst. making me not only waste the project, but the freaking burst proc talent altogether and other whatever spells i might cast. it's like having a double lagged burst that is completely predictable to the enemy. I am only speaking from experience because i duel top players form my server all the time and they do this to me on a regular bases. I don't even put any talent points in upheaval any more because it's so bad...

 

There is no reason to talk about other aspect of project any more because it has already been discussed to death. But people need to understand that at the highest level played project gimps burst NOT help it. BW please fix it thank you! bump this thread for fairness plz.

Edited February 12, 2012 by iinnate

[Ysgraithe]

this is absolutely true, a consular build specced 10 in balance will rely on project a lot to be viable in PVP and it is simply NOT INSTANT-unlike shock, it needs a boost to make it on par. How many times I've seen a rock float in midair after the opp vanished?

 

too many to count.

 

Even if they fix the issue and it hits invis opponents, it wil STILL remain inferior due to the 1-2 sec delay.

 

It needs a 5% damage boost to compensate imho.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Ysgraithe

[RockysRevenge]

I believe this is why there are so many posts in the project animation thread. It's the animation that keeps it from being instant. So why not change the rock throwing animation to TK throw, have multiple rocks, and do something completely different for project? It just makes sense.

 

Now what to actually use as the animation for project? I don't know. Maybe a ball of energy, dragonball-style, or something. It does need a serious look at though.

[DirtyDiggler]

so the coolest Jedi force animation you want to change because people are using tactics and sometimes outplay you.

 

 

I vote no, for the love of God don't change the animation bioware!

[Ecmelt]

You vote no cause it's animation is cool. I see. I'm sure your opinion will be taken serious. *Sigh*

 

It's a game with pve and pvp. If you are playing it only for the animations and graphics i suggest you to watch a starwars movie instead.

[iinnate]

so the coolest Jedi force animation you want to change because people are using tactics and sometimes outplay you.

 

 

I vote no, for the love of God don't change the animation bioware!

 

i'm happy for you that you like the animation, personally i don't care about how the animation looks. But don't you think it would be a win/win situation if they keep the animation and just make damage apply instant? unless you really think the damage number would look that much prettier if it is applied at the end of the animation.

Edited February 8, 2012 by iinnate

[LORDcorgath]

You all fail to see how great that skill is. think about it if the skill takes 2 seconds before it hits the target. You can activate an insta-cast spell and they would both hit at around the same second good burst for someone who is smart. To me 2 spells hiting the target at same time is much better.

[LeeTone]

I like the animation as well.

 

As many have suggested, keep the animation but simply make the damage and effect apply at the same time as it does with SI abilities.

[iinnate]

You all fail to see how great that skill is. think about it if the skill takes 2 seconds before it hits the target. You can activate an insta-cast spell and they would both hit at around the same second good burst for someone who is smart. To me 2 spells hiting the target at same time is much better.

 

I think you missed the whole point of this thread which you prolly didn't really read...I thought I specifically wrote it for people like you who think project is good at burst que ;(

 

maybe I should make a TLDR version:

I understand your incredible vision of how project can be good for burst... but in reality it is only VERY SLIGHTLY good at queing up damage vs bad players that just stand there and face roll keyboard. When you que up damage vs skilled players it is not only useless but often times become counter productive and you waste all your proc/burst/resource while doing zero damage.

Edited February 8, 2012 by iinnate

[Oktaine]

I love the rock throwing too, but it's seriously messed up like it is. A 2 second delay cant be bursty any way you look at it. The saber throw sounds cool. Then put the rock throw on mind crush, that animation is kind of lame any way.

 

And once again, breaking shock is project is broken is not the answer.

[FalmeseReb]

all they need to do is nerf SI to have the same delay.

[KilmarFyrewynd]

You all fail to see how great that skill is. think about it if the skill takes 2 seconds before it hits the target. You can activate an insta-cast spell and they would both hit at around the same second good burst for someone who is smart. To me 2 spells hiting the target at same time is much better.

 

Until the person cloaks on you or casts their damage debuff/shield/anything damage mitigating because they saw your Project from a mile away. Then, you hit NOTHING.

[Calimwulf]

I think you missed the whole point of this thread which you prolly didn't really read...I thought I specifically wrote it for people like you who think project is good at burst que ;(

 

maybe I should make a TLDR version:

I understand your incredible vision of how project can be good for burst... but in reality it is only VERY SLIGHTLY good at queing up damage vs bad players that just stand there and face roll keyboard. When you que up damage vs skilled players it is not only useless but often times become counter productive and you waste all your proc/burst/resource while doing zero damage.

 

So let me see if I am understanding what you are saying. If I can fairly consistently hit the opponent in such a manner where I am doing more burst damage, which is king in PvP, then I'm a worse player or consistently fighting against worse players than you are? That is ludicrous.

 

L2P

[Onager]

Easy fix: If you're in combat and the cooldown on Project is up, you hoist the rock immediately and it floats there until you lob it at your target, and then the rock comes back up as soon as the cooldown finishes. Now we have instant Project.

 

OR

 

Have the Sorc do like an Egg Shen charge-up before throwing shock for an equal time to the animation on Project (Longer animation for further distance) so that it's mechanically identical.

 

Which version is better is irrelevant as long as both sides get the same version.

[MeanMartian]

I agree with the animation and the use of quick thinking and tactics to negate a lucky proc. Which is why my answer has always been to nerf shock. Give shock a similar delay and a similarly visible extra damage proc.

[inseeisyou]

All other trollish arguments aside, the absolute definitive "Project is worse" moment is when you consider that the target can "Force Cloak" during the project animation and avoid the damage totally. This happens quite frequently as the Imps have learned this trick well.

 

Being able to "dodge" Project, which is usually a heavily proced finishing blow makes is far inferior to the "instant" Shock ability which is supposedly it's mirror.

[Vales]

All other trollish arguments aside, the absolute definitive "Project is worse" moment is when you consider that the target can "Force Cloak" during the project animation and avoid the damage totally. This happens quite frequently as the Imps have learned this trick well.

 

Being able to "dodge" Project, which is usually a heavily proced finishing blow makes is far inferior to the "instant" Shock ability which is supposedly it's mirror.

 

So you used a 6 second CD to waste a 3 minute CD or 45 second CD.

Where is the problem again?

[Calimwulf]

So you used a 6 second CD to waste a 3 minute CD or 45 second CD.

Where is the problem again?

I'm curious if it comes down to the fact that the folks 'complaining' are 1 vs 1 duelers, or if they just don't understand the math.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Calimwulf

[iinnate]

+1 for using stun before doubled project. And don't change animation - its epic

 

since when do you know your double project will proc? are you a prophet? lol, thats what makes project bad, you donno when your proc will happen, but on the other hand your enemy will ALWAYS know when it will happen because they will see it. if you fail to see that then i donno what to say...lets say even if you use ur stun AFTER u see u pull up 2 rocks, there is still a 1.5 second global in between the project and the stun....

 

also why must I use stun on my target every time before i project? lol i have alot better use for stun than that, i wont even need to go there. and to point out how severely your logic failed: a sith inquisitor can also stun a target before they use shock and achieve the exact same thing, but why won't they do that? cuz its stupid lol, so basically you are telling me any thing we can do sith can do better (cuz shock damage is still guaranteed even if stunned opponent use trinket)? I'm glad you found a way to compensate for your lag, but when the other side can do the samething and better its not really an advantage.

Edited February 12, 2012 by iinnate

[Gnorrior]

since when do you know your double project will proc? are you a prophet? lol, thats what makes project bad, you donno when it will happen, but on the other hand your enemy will ALWAYS know when it will happen because they will see it. if you fail to see that then i donno what to say...lets say even if you use ur stun AFTER u see u pull up 2 rocks, there is still a 1.5 second global in between the project and the stun....

 

also why must I use stun on my target every time before i project? lol i have alot better use for stun than that, i wont even need to go there. and to point out how severely your logic failed: a sith inquisitor can also stun a target before they use shock and achieve the exact same thing, but why won't they do that? cuz its stupid lol, so basically you are telling me any thing we can do sith can do better? I'm glad you found a way to compensate for your lag, but when the other side can do the samething its not really an advantage.

 

Lets put it this way.

 

Competitive PvP:

 

You will most likely be used in a meele train.

 

If you're meele training a target, chances are high that the target is stunned, incapacitated, etc, will be blowing every CD to escape, or is dead.

 

IE: It doesn't matter whether your burst happens 1.5s later or not. Well, aside from the fact that your burst will happen at the same time and be much harder to heal, as comparing to a sith assassins which will happen very separated.

 

This is talking about a group with coordination. IE: the kind of PvP which actually matters, and will likely become rated, eventually.

 

So, you use project, they vanish. Okay, all your procs are still active. Just wait 6 seconds and pick another target and wreck their face for 8k damage anyway. Either way you're killing someone. A tank can't vanish and keep holding a flag, for example.

 

Anyway i digress, the benefits of project with a delay far outweigh the cons.

[daggerdun]

Why can't the abilities be the same? That's the real question. If they are Mirrored classes with just different flavor for the effects then why can they not actually be balanced the same?

If anyone hasn't noticed when it comes to most of the major abilities that trooper-bounty hunter & Sith Inquisitor - Jedi Councilor, the empire wins. Their abilities work instantly, unlike republic's god awful delays.

 

For example Death From Above V.s. Mortar Volly. The Imp's get a version that works from the moment they press the key until the end of its channel time, and it cant be interrupted. Now try out the Mirror class trooper, Mortar Volly will take 1.5 second of channeling before the first tick of damage, and will tick one time a second after you've finished using it. Don't forget it's interpretable as well. Keep in mind this is one of The classes better abilities.

 

Then we come back to Shock V.s. Project. The Imp's get a better version that functions instantly without a 1.5 second delay. Notice a Trend? and there's more then just these two.

 

Point for point the Imp's get better classes then the republic. When the game is said to be "balanced" and that the classes are "mirrors" of one another, passing one side a series of rotten apples and telling them to just deal with it, how do you expect to be competitive?

You can't. You just have to work twice as hard as the other team.

 

As a republic player I often feel the following about the pvp environment:

Its kinda like playing High school sports except the other team is allowed to higher professional athletes and your stuck with whatever your given + 1 or 2 mentally challenged kids.

[Chaede]

Lets put it this way.

 

Competitive PvP:

 

You will most likely be used in a meele train.

 

If you're meele training a target, chances are high that the target is stunned, incapacitated, etc, will be blowing every CD to escape, or is dead.

 

IE: It doesn't matter whether your burst happens 1.5s later or not. Well, aside from the fact that your burst will happen at the same time and be much harder to heal, as comparing to a sith assassins which will happen very separated.

 

This is talking about a group with coordination. IE: the kind of PvP which actually matters, and will likely become rated, eventually.

 

So, you use project, they vanish. Okay, all your procs are still active. Just wait 6 seconds and pick another target and wreck their face for 8k damage anyway. Either way you're killing someone. A tank can't vanish and keep holding a flag, for example.

 

Anyway i digress, the benefits of project with a delay far outweigh the cons.

 

Totally disagree. Every extra 10th of a second delay is another chance for a heal to land on your target and for you not to get a KB.

 

I don't care whether they make the damage instant or delay the damage on shock. Mirror classes should be mirrored including delays due to animation. The fact it was not fixed before release was either lazy or short sighted by BW.

[DarthSalt]

1-The two abilities are supposed to function exactly the same.

2-They do not.

 

I am of the camp saying it's BAD to have the delay (i get the floating rock ALOT) &

my 'easiest' solution with least amount of work involved::

delay Shock

 

my 2cent.

Edited February 9, 2012 by DarthSalt

[Jatne]

Lets put it this way.

 

Competitive PvP:

 

You will most likely be used in a meele train.

 

If you're meele training a target, chances are high that the target is stunned, incapacitated, etc, will be blowing every CD to escape, or is dead.

 

IE: It doesn't matter whether your burst happens 1.5s later or not. Well, aside from the fact that your burst will happen at the same time and be much harder to heal, as comparing to a sith assassins which will happen very separated.

 

This is talking about a group with coordination. IE: the kind of PvP which actually matters, and will likely become rated, eventually.

 

So, you use project, they vanish. Okay, all your procs are still active. Just wait 6 seconds and pick another target and wreck their face for 8k damage anyway. Either way you're killing someone. A tank can't vanish and keep holding a flag, for example.

 

Anyway i digress, the benefits of project with a delay far outweigh the cons.

 

QFT your IQ is far too high to be posting on these forums!

[Xaehl]

Stun is used 'when a target is going to do something bad' (like run/heal/kill someone or capture the ball/turret etc)... If I use that to pretend that I didn't just "dessecrate R2D2's grave", then what do I do when I actually NEED the stun??

 

Besides which, doubled project is a proc, AFAIK I can't control when it happens? Accelerated project is also a proc for me, as-is project's cooldown.

 

I like the animation also, but it needs to deal the damage *then* throw R2D2's mangled corpse.

 

NO. that would be mind snap.