More than one regualar downtime a week is a SERIOUS problem...

[Dirtybomb]

Actually yes. If they take the ignore approach, eventually people lose faith and negative criticism/PR ensues.

 

But there a few flaws with the implementation here. First, take a look at the forums. Most of it is negative and rarely described in a constructive way. In short, people are throwing tantrums. Second, if you have a legitimate concern and/or suggestion, the general forum is not the place to report it. This has become where people go to cry. Open a ticket or send an email to BW. Posting them on the forums (especially in the manner the OP used) is not helpful to anyone.

 

But the best tool we have at our disposal is our subscriptions. If I was as worked up as the OP seems to be, I'd end my sub, at which time I will be offered the option to describe why. Make a clear description of what you don't like. Describing your grievance while eliminating your $15/month from BW's coffers will be much more effective than throwing a tantrum on the general forums.

[Jensyth]

I completely agree with OP and I just want to try and provide MY personal input in response to some 'common' responses I see in this thread:

 

- It's only a few hours a week, stop complaining/get a life/do something else/etc

I actually have a very busy life with work, a family, and other interests. My primary chances to actually play SWTOR is usually 11pm-2am PST. So considering that ALL these maintenances cut right into my only play time, I do feel that I have paid for a product that I cannot use. Also, if the argument is that it doesn't impact everyone so it's not a big deal, I'd like to point out that the freezing/glitching issue that was the reason for the most recent patch never affected me; that doesn't make it any less real of an issue.

 

- It's a new game, deal with it while they work through the growing pains. Most other MMOs had the same issue

While I agree that most MMOs had/have the same issues, I know this can be improved. I joined Rift at launch and I have never seen a smoother launch in all my MMO playing experience. Were there unexpected downtimes and maintenances? Sure, but they handled them in a way that made me feel confident that Trion knew what they were doing and that it really was an 'extreme' case. I feel here that BW is putting out knee-jerk patches that are inadequately tested. Even worse, their lack of real communication and connection to the community makes this even worse. The 'blog post' from the Exec. Producer is probably the first time I've seen anything close to BW trying to connect with the community and let folks know that they KNOW there are things they need to work on and actually detail what their plans are to do so.

 

- If you don't like it, don't play

I've paid almost $100 bucks to play this game (base game, upgrade to deluxe/ce, 1 month sub). While I've cancelled my recurring subscription, I would still like to get SOMETHING out of the money I paid for the game itself. These complaints are my attempt (and others) to try and help BW see where they can improve so that I WANT to resubscribe.

 

- First you complain they aren't fixing bugs, now you complain they are fixing them too often. Stop flip-flopping

This is a completely stupid argument/response. If I complained to a waiter at a restaurant that the steak I ordered was too well done (I ordered Medium Rare let's say) and their response is to bring me a raw steak, you're damn right I'm going to complain. There is a right way and a wrong way to 'fix' something. Having a maintenance/patch on a nearly 50% basis is definitely the WRONG way to fix this. If you think about it, it's been 6 weeks since this game launched, and someone noted there were 20-22 maintenances. Subtracting 6 for each of the weekly maintenances mean they've had 14+ maintenances that were 'emergency'/'hotfix' maintenances. That CLEARLY points to either an issue with what they categorize as 'emergency' worthy, or a problem with their dev/qa/release process and either not fixing issues or introducing new ones every time. Something needs to change.

 

I think there were a couple others but I doubt many will read this far. As I mentioned, I've already cancelled my subscription but I'll be doing all I can to enjoy the remaining days on my current month as well as try and HELP BW change what I personally think is necessary for me to come back.

 

On that note, here are some ideas I've thought of (and I've seen a couple mentioned also by others in this thread) that I think could help with the specific issue of maintenance.

 

1. Obviously, fix the dev/qa/release process, or revise your methods for deeming bugs as emergency worthy

 

2. Alternate release windows so that it's not always the same group of people that are hit every time. I'm sure people have 'regular' windows they play in and I know that I personally have lost 3 'days' of playtime this week.

 

3. Stagger the releases by servers so that if my main server is down for maintenance, I could roll an alt on another server and at least get some enjoyment that way. I know this may be technically impossible, or difficult, or on the roadmap, etc. but see item #4 below. If BW could at least inform folks of why these take so long, or have to happen all at once, or when they plan on changing architecture, etc. that would go a long way to restoring faith in their ability to OPERATE a MMO.

 

4. Hire some community managers whose sole purpose is to be a representative to the community and interacts on a more frequent basis than just a one-off blog post or announcement. Help people SEE that BW is involved/aware of complaints and provide some sort of feedback. I mean, aside from what I feel is just a canned 'thanks for being patient as we maintain service' tagline, I get no sense that BW is aware of this as an issue, or that they are working to improve this process, or how specifically, etc.

 

5. I completely understand how it may come off as a bratty, self-entitled demand, but seriously, after all these maintenance downtimes and issues, any reimbursement of game time is appreciated. I know in a lot of ways it seems hypocritical to say the game is bad and the experience is awful, and then say I want free play time. But it's not the game time itself that is important, it's the feeling that BW understands it's a point of pain for many and that they want to try and make amends. That is the real point.

 

I had a bunch more earlier this morning while I first read this thread but I've forgotten a couple I think.

 

TL;DR - These are valid issues even if they do not impact everyone equally. These posts are an attempt to improve the game.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Jensyth

[Englisheart]

I have paid too...and without the last mini patch I couldnt raid or pvp...I am constantly amazed by some ppl Edited February 2, 2012 by Englisheart

[SwampHobbit]

The trick is to find hilarity in some of the more ridiculous things people say. Many complaints are valid, but some are just too funny.

 

The freeze/hitching issue is still not completely resolved. I've checked my end (again for the umpteenth time). Now, it is mildly better than when it started for me - on or around 6:00 pm Tuesday night - but I'm still seeing black skill boxes, slow refresh screens when transitioning, and very long transitions to NPC chats.

 

Prior to Tuesday, I had not experienced anything but World Error 9000.

 

In 45 days of playing time, I avoided the really annoying stuff til this week.

 

Overall though, this game has been remarkably stable considering it is a new launch.

Edited February 2, 2012 by SwampHobbit

[Dramion]

They complain if the servers stay up and are having issues. They complain if the servers go down to fix them. They complain cause the fix does not fix the servers. They complain, oh wait did I mention they complain.

 

It is a MMO, stuff like this will happen. It happens to the best of them. No matter how angry you get nothing will change the way they fix the servers.

 

Deal With It!

 

ALSO read the agreement you sign before logging in, in there it talks about maintenance =)

[Lorealin]

These downtimes are nothing compared to blizz patches...especially starting out when we would lose days at a time to downtime.

 

Really? 8hrs downtime is nothing every 3rd day?

What planet are you from?

[Asuka]

To try and put this as plainly as I can, taking the servers down as often as they have been is completely unacceptable. It is also painting Bioware as completely amateur regarding their understanding of both how MMOs are run and what customers expect.

 

It is NOT acceptable to take servers down every couple of days to fix minor exploits, performance issues that affect less than a majority of customers, or any other reason besides extreme stability issues which make the game unplayable. Because I can guarantee that most people would rather deal with such issues than not play the game at all.

 

I realize this is a young game and there will be some growing pains. But I know for a fact a LOT of people are becoming really turned off by this attitude of "OOoooo! We found a bug, let's take the servers down!". I am mad enough as it is and I am on EST. Can you imagine how pissed people in the West Coast are who are getting their service shut down at midnight every couple of days because of relatively insignificant issues?

 

I am not sure what the reason is for this apparent total lack of concern for industry standard patching schedules, but it had better end quick or this game is going to lose a lot of subs. That is not a threat, it is just reality.

 

EDIT: If you are going to make some comment about "I am glad the servers are down at least they are fixing the game", save your breath. Every other MMO I have ever played has fixed their games by taking the servers down once a week. And I will add this: I guarantee you wouldn't be singing the same song if they took them down during YOUR prime playing hours.

 

 

Seriously, get over it. They don't guarantee 100% uptime and reserve the right to take the servers down at any time day or night. The online time they should really avoid taking them down if possible is weekends.

[Brickabrack]

it was down for 90 minutes in the wee hours of the morning. Why so SERIOUS?

[Jimer_Lins]

The SWTOR servers are the most stable of any game I've ever played, and I'll bet dollars to little green apples that they are for anyone reading this too. If the price of that stability is the time BioWare needs to make sure they stay that way when deploying and validating patches, it's cheap at twice the price.

 

There would be far more raging and QQ if random server failures or rollbacks (which is pretty much par for the course on some other games) were a regular occurence. So far, the worst thing anyone can complain about is that the announced downtimes are too frequent.

[theAdt]

West Coast here. I'm with the OP on this one. Minor-Moderate Bugs/Exploits should be resolved in a single patch during the scheduled maintenance window each week. While major/global issues should be fixed immediately. There have been numerous occasions when we've been brought down early on non-maintenance days (even on Friday or Saturday) and it's been a real inconvenience to be logged off by midnight - and I struggle to believe that each time was a major event which required immediate patching.

 

Server uptime metrics are important. I would love to see the game developers acting like it.

[Englisheart]

mmm green apples

[dosadnik]

...If you think about it, it's been 6 weeks since this game launched, and someone noted there were 20-22 maintenances...

 

Well someone obviously can't count cause they've only had 10 maintenances. Now go ahead and subtract your six from there and let's see what happens.

[Jensyth]

So far, the worst thing anyone can complain about is that the announced downtimes are too frequent.

 

Um, I think that's what this thread is....

[gurugeorge]

To try and put this as plainly as I can, taking the servers down as often as they have been is completely unacceptable.

 

No, actually, it's not.

[Jensyth]

Well someone obviously can't count cause they've only had 10 maintenances. Now go ahead and subtract your six from there and let's see what happens.

 

Looks like more than 1 person can't count actually. According to the patchnotes page, depending on whether you count from early start, or official launch, there have been either 19 or 15 patches (although some have the same date so I can't recall if they got deployed in 2 separate windows or not) but still definitely more than 10. Subtracted the 6 weekly maintenance windows and you still average out to 2-3 a week (closer to 2 yes but still).

 

I do want to address your main point though and agree that yes, if it's only counted from official launch day, and some of those patches were applied on the same day, then the number of additional maintenances is much lower and not as bad. Perhaps it's really more that there have been 6 maintenances since 1.1.0 which was released on the 18th. So just barely over 2 weeks, averaging 3 a week. It's this trend that is the real trouble. I just want to help make sure that the trend stops!

[Chumpbeater]

I completely agree with OP and I just want to try and provide MY personal input in response to some 'common' responses I see in this thread:

 

- It's only a few hours a week, stop complaining/get a life/do something else/etc

I actually have a very busy life with work, a family, and other interests. My primary chances to actually play SWTOR is usually 11pm-2am PST. So considering that ALL these maintenances cut right into my only play time, I do feel that I have paid for a product that I cannot use. Also, if the argument is that it doesn't impact everyone so it's not a big deal, I'd like to point out that the freezing/glitching issue that was the reason for the most recent patch never affected me; that doesn't make it any less real of an issue.

 

- It's a new game, deal with it while they work through the growing pains. Most other MMOs had the same issue

While I agree that most MMOs had/have the same issues, I know this can be improved. I joined Rift at launch and I have never seen a smoother launch in all my MMO playing experience. Were there unexpected downtimes and maintenances? Sure, but they handled them in a way that made me feel confident that Trion knew what they were doing and that it really was an 'extreme' case. I feel here that BW is putting out knee-jerk patches that are inadequately tested. Even worse, their lack of real communication and connection to the community makes this even worse. The 'blog post' from the Exec. Producer is probably the first time I've seen anything close to BW trying to connect with the community and let folks know that they KNOW there are things they need to work on and actually detail what their plans are to do so.

 

- If you don't like it, don't play

I've paid almost $100 bucks to play this game (base game, upgrade to deluxe/ce, 1 month sub). While I've cancelled my recurring subscription, I would still like to get SOMETHING out of the money I paid for the game itself. These complaints are my attempt (and others) to try and help BW see where they can improve so that I WANT to resubscribe.

 

- First you complain they aren't fixing bugs, now you complain they are fixing them too often. Stop flip-flopping

This is a completely stupid argument/response. If I complained to a waiter at a restaurant that the steak I ordered was too well done (I ordered Medium Rare let's say) and their response is to bring me a raw steak, you're damn right I'm going to complain. There is a right way and a wrong way to 'fix' something. Having a maintenance/patch on a nearly 50% basis is definitely the WRONG way to fix this. If you think about it, it's been 6 weeks since this game launched, and someone noted there were 20-22 maintenances. Subtracting 6 for each of the weekly maintenances mean they've had 14+ maintenances that were 'emergency'/'hotfix' maintenances. That CLEARLY points to either an issue with what they categorize as 'emergency' worthy, or a problem with their dev/qa/release process and either not fixing issues or introducing new ones every time. Something needs to change.

 

I think there were a couple others but I doubt many will read this far. As I mentioned, I've already cancelled my subscription but I'll be doing all I can to enjoy the remaining days on my current month as well as try and HELP BW change what I personally think is necessary for me to come back.

 

On that note, here are some ideas I've thought of (and I've seen a couple mentioned also by others in this thread) that I think could help with the specific issue of maintenance.

 

1. Obviously, fix the dev/qa/release process, or revise your methods for deeming bugs as emergency worthy

 

2. Alternate release windows so that it's not always the same group of people that are hit every time. I'm sure people have 'regular' windows they play in and I know that I personally have lost 3 'days' of playtime this week.

 

3. Stagger the releases by servers so that if my main server is down for maintenance, I could roll an alt on another server and at least get some enjoyment that way. I know this may be technically impossible, or difficult, or on the roadmap, etc. but see item #4 below. If BW could at least inform folks of why these take so long, or have to happen all at once, or when they plan on changing architecture, etc. that would go a long way to restoring faith in their ability to OPERATE a MMO.

 

4. Hire some community managers whose sole purpose is to be a representative to the community and interacts on a more frequent basis than just a one-off blog post or announcement. Help people SEE that BW is involved/aware of complaints and provide some sort of feedback. I mean, aside from what I feel is just a canned 'thanks for being patient as we maintain service' tagline, I get no sense that BW is aware of this as an issue, or that they are working to improve this process, or how specifically, etc.

 

5. I completely understand how it may come off as a bratty, self-entitled demand, but seriously, after all these maintenance downtimes and issues, any reimbursement of game time is appreciated. I know in a lot of ways it seems hypocritical to say the game is bad and the experience is awful, and then say I want free play time. But it's not the game time itself that is important, it's the feeling that BW understands it's a point of pain for many and that they want to try and make amends. That is the real point.

 

I had a bunch more earlier this morning while I first read this thread but I've forgotten a couple I think.

 

TL;DR - These are valid issues even if they do not impact everyone equally. These posts are an attempt to improve the game.

 

 

This is awesome.

[SolGravion]

Well someone obviously can't count cause they've only had 10 maintenances. Now go ahead and subtract your six from there and let's see what happens.

 

And how many emergency patches have we done? There has been one a week for the last three weeks. How convenient for you to overlook.

[ArtMonster]

"gimme gimme gimme...."

 

 

that's all this thread is.

 

 

nothing more.

 

 

but that's OK.... it's not going to affect thier maint. schedule one teensy bit.

 

 

.

[Mergon]

The regular lock-ups caused by Tuesdays patch were more than just irritating. Another day of them and I'd have been posting in the Support forum and complaining. I am quite satisfied with BW taking down the servers for a couple of hours, at 3 am EST, to fix bugs.

 

A once a week downtime is great for maintenance, but you fix irritating bugs asap or you end up with a very unhappy clientele.

[TheAlmightyPoe]

What is wrong with you people.

 

This thread is here for people with the problem to speak to customer service.

 

This thread is also here for us to bounce ideas off one-another.

 

All i'm seeing is people reading the OP post, skipping the rest and complaining about OP's post.

 

What about the several other people who have had legitimate gripes?

 

What about the other people who give well thought out responses to OPs gripe?

 

 

Right now im seeing the last 4 pages of this thread just say "QQ less pl0x" because they're too lazy to read a thread. If you can't read a thread, **** of the forums. I am not OP, but i posted my concerns on here, in hopes of someone reading it and discussing it, let it be another member, or a customer service official.

 

Now because of all the people who dont want to even read a few pages, its nothing but a hate thread.

[TheAlmightyPoe]

it was down for 90 minutes in the wee hours of the morning. Why so SERIOUS?

 

read the whole thread.

[Jimer_Lins]

Um, I think that's what this thread is....

 

And the fact is that if the worst thing you can come up with to whine about is that downtimes are too frequent then I have no sympathy. I play on the west coast and have been more impacted than many by the downtimes, but I'll happily take it in return for knowing the servers are rock solid the rest of the time.

 

In short- quit whining. There's better things to be worked up over and most of the alternatives to the downtimes are far worse.

[SolGravion]

And the fact is that if the worst thing you can come up with to whine about is that downtimes are too frequent then I have no sympathy. I play on the west coast and have been more impacted than many by the downtimes, but I'll happily take it in return for knowing the servers are rock solid the rest of the time.

 

In short- quit whining. There's better things to be worked up over and most of the alternatives to the downtimes are far worse.

 

How about you quit? Sure there are better things to be worked up over, but just coming into a thread and telling everyone to **** is just plain rude.

[HolyGigi]

I'm from Europe, I work in shifts and I have a life outside swtor. So I sometimes get to play under 8 hours a week.

 

ALL the maintenances have been a big hassle for anyone in Europe. There was one that ended at 9:30PM my time. ***? Last week we had patches every 3 days, with one on Saturday that lasted till the mid afternoon, about 5-6PM. Thats on a weekend when most ppls are free to enjoy their hobbies.

I really loved the game, had almost 3 days of /played in the first week since launch. But the holidays are over. Now I wake up, start swtor and see that the game will be offline till 3-4 PM. And at 6PM i have to go to work. So no point in logging in.

 

Either separate the maintenance windows for US/EU, or do one every week or two weeks. and NEVER ON WEEKEND!.

I wouldn't have any problems if the maintenances were at 2am like they are for US. I'd be asleep or at work at that hour anyway.

 

I'm really bummed that i got 3 months sub right after i got the game. Im very determined not to continue paying if BW keeps this up. Im paying for something that i cant use. Yeah, if i had 50+hours a week to play swtor, maintenances wouldn't bother me. But I dont, so if my max is 8-9 and they do a maintenance on a Saturday, i'll end up with about 3-4 hours played on a week. At most.

[Jensyth]

And the fact is that if the worst thing you can come up with to whine about is that downtimes are too frequent then I have no sympathy. I play on the west coast and have been more impacted than many by the downtimes, but I'll happily take it in return for knowing the servers are rock solid the rest of the time.

 

In short- quit whining. There's better things to be worked up over and most of the alternatives to the downtimes are far worse.

 

Ok, first, I'd like to point out that I am NOT 'coming up' with things to complain about. That implies that my intent is to complain. My intent is not to complain, it's to find a solution to a problem that I am facing, and that SOME other people also are facing.

 

Second, while you may be on the West Coast and affected more than Central or Eastern, just because YOU aren't bothered by the number of maintenances doesn't mean it shouldn't bother anyone else. How many hours do you normally get to play a day? If you're losing 50% of your play time, whereas I'm losing 75% of my play time (arbitrary numbers, don't nitpick on this) then it would be reasonable to expect that I might be more bothered.

 

Maybe a better way to approach this discussion is to discuss some hypothetical situations. How many maintenances, for how many hours, taking place on a weekly basis would it take for you to be bothered? I can't imagine ANYONE would be ok with a maintenance every night for 8 hours, more so if there were no indication whether it was permanent or only for a week, etc. Or what if there was a maintenance every day for 2 hours but there was little to no advance warning? Would that bother you? Maybe that's too extreme, what if there was a maintenance 3 times a week but that was Friday, Saturday, and Sunday night?

 

I think at a fundamental level with any MMO, regardless of what you 'legally' agreed to in a EULA or TOS, there is an expectation that the game will be available a certain amount of time, or on a certain recognizable schedule. The core issue is that for some, the current state is bothersome and we of course would like to try and fix it. To argue that we shouldn't be complaining because YOU (not you specifically, but anyone posting negatively about this) don't think it's complaint worthy is the same as me saying other people shouldn't complain about freezing/glitching because it didn't really bother me, or about pvp balance because I suck at pvp and I die anywyas, or crew skills because I just took gathering skills, etc.

 

And, while not my primary goal, listening to these complaints IS something BW should do, simply because it will help them obtain further data points on why a subscriber will leave. I'm sure these forums don't paint a complete picture of the situation and the handful of people posting in support are the ONLY ones bothered. So be it. But I'll tell you this much, last night when I had to log off due to maintenance, I downloaded another f2p mmo, patched a popular MOBA I played before, and purchased an add-on for a third game. My point (besides showing that I play too many games)? Eventually, people WILL find other things to do during the maintenance window, and that may just be something that takes them away from SWTOR. I have to imagine it would be in BW's best interest to try and reduce those opportunities as much as possible.