So Why is Threat Invisible?

[Pzyc]

The most correct answer would be that "we don't know"; only Bioware does.

 

Of course, instead, we'll dabble and speculate a little.

 

The most likely answer is that "it's not needed". But that's not really an answer. If that were an answer, then the same could be said for any advancement in human history. Why did we invent cars? Why did we invent computers? They weren't needed. But the fact of the matter is that they still empower us, and make our lives better for it, so even if they weren't needed, they were still good things.

 

So instead, we should really look at it from the viewpoint of "what harm would it bring if threat meters were added"? Well, first is the obvious reason: developer cost. Obviously at the moment, developers are pretty stretched thin, fixing bugs, adding content, etc., so adding a new feature at high cost for minimal gain probably ranks pretty low on their lists. It's the same reason why addons/mods/macro support hasn't been added in yet, even though Bioware has stated clearly that they want this in some fashion sooner or later.

 

The second is something someone else mentioned: immersion. Now, personally, as an ex-hardcore WoW raider, I can never see raiding as anything more than spreadsheets, rotations, and so on, but there's still a large (read: ginormous) part of the MMO player base who might as well be playing with the UI turned off (and enjoy playing in this naive state). Adding more bars and more flashing UI things can hinder their enjoyment of the game, and let's face it: casuals are the moneymakers for MMO companies.

 

There are a couple other side arguments that I've considered, but I've thought against.

 

Difficulty: Threat meters would technically decrease difficulty, but would ultimately increase difficulty. The reason for this is because with a more technically empowered and enlightened player base, the raids must become harder to compensate. We've seen in WoW how the raids have evolved as an arms race between dungeon difficulty and addons. By adding in something even as simple as a threat meter, the dungeon difficulty would have to rise and possibly alienate casuals who were less able to use these tools.

 

However, this is highly mitigated by the fact that Bioware seems committed to keep three separate dungeon difficulties, and unlike WoW, the normal mode is easy enough for even casuals to run through.

 

Player communities: It was mentioned that threat meters might make them mandatory (which it might, but only due to the aforementioned reason stated before), and that hardcore players would belittle casuals for not using them. Aside from the fact that casuals will probably be doing less dps (lacking the theorycrafting knowledge to do so) so that their threat wouldn't even matter, I think this is a false statement regardless. Hardcore players are going to hate, threat meters or no.

 

But the good part about it is that hardcore players are usually in hardcore guilds, which are self-selective and, for the most part, secluded from the rest of the player base. The most they'll do is laugh at a casual applicant for trying to apply, but because the applicant is casual, he probably wouldn't have been a good fit anyways, so it would be better overall if he joined a guild with those of his own play style. Adding in threat meters wouldn't change anything about this hardcore/casual social dynamic.

 

Anyways, take what you will from this post. It's pretty clear that these forums are not the best place for intelligent discussion, since you can't even expect people to read what you say (it boggles the mind how many l2p responses there are in this thread).

[_Brandr_]

Everytime I have ever played a dps class in an mmo in a group setting I always make sure to throw my threat decreasing move into my rotation every so often. Usually that is enough to prevent gaining aggro. So far looking at alot of the dps players that post screen shots, most of them don't even have those abilities on their hot bars. It's a nifty tool, use it.

[GalacticKegger]

threat meters are for the dps

.

.

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threat meters are for the dps

Actually, tanks can use them too in tag-team situations where they trade off to beat debuffs and the swap-out has to be clean and decisive. Are they a need? Nope. But there are situations where tanks can benefit as much as dps from using them. Edited February 2, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[DarkSeverance]

Threat meters technically aren't needed for the tank, they are needed for the DPS. The problem is that the tank and the healer have access to them. So you are adding a mechanic that only 1/3 of the roles is needed.

 

It makes for lazy tanking and bad tanking. They just watch the meters, instead of watching groups health. It also doesn't show them mobs threat unless that mob is selected, so instead of watching the battle they are watching the indicator.

 

Back in EQ, L2 there wasn't a threat meter. It was very simple if the DPS was getting attacked, he was A) Doing too much DPS, B) Attacking the wrong mob, C) Or the tank wasn't doing their job properly... in that order. DPS learned the first A and B quickly because the healer only healed the tank. In SWtOR the healer can't really not heal the DPS, but it is a group effort. DPS is lower on the healing priority and the tank needs to be properly controlling the battle to make sure he has threat. The tank should also notice who is pulling threat because of A,B or C as well because it is pretty easy to see if you position the mobs properly (ie: face them away from the group, so everything should be facing the tank).

[Gerrard_Ennui]

I'd use a threat meter if I had access to one.

[GellonSW]

Threat meter is a waste of UI space. No thanks.

[mangarrage]

oh man lol

 

It is invisible because you do not need it to tank

People that need a threat meter want a system where they do not want to do their job

 

They want the computer to tell them what they should be attacking

 

99% of mmos that I have played do not have it

 

If you fel you need a threat meter in order to do the role you chose to undertake then you should reroll a character that doesnt have to worry about it

[Dirtybomb]

That works great until you start getting yelled at for losing threat on an enemy and it two-shots the healer. (If they can hit that hard; I don't have a 50 yet.)

 

Protip: Don't run with people that would yell at you.

 

I think there should be some sort of threat meter someplace. I don't seem to have problems holding threat, but more info is always good. If you don't like the idea of threat meters, don't use them once available.

[Brad-]

Threat is not invisible. Each action produces threat. It is not spoonfed to you, but it is not invisible.

 

Most games do not spoonfeed threat information to you. Most games require you to learn threat manangement.

[GamewizX]

Why do we have an invisible game mechanic? It's like not being able to see health or resource bars. What possible reason could there be for this?

 

Some bad answers I want to head off at the pass: "I can kinda sense where my threat is based on how hard I'm hitting things." Unless you're an robot, no you can't. You just can't. And even the robot would need to know all the threat values anyway, and we just don't have this information. You might have a vague notion of your threat, but this is the whole problem I'm on about. Why not just show us like heath or resources?

 

"See?! This is why they need to give us mods!" No, they just need to show us the values in game like every other value; health, resources, resolve, cooldowns... again, why is this one value singled out for invisibility?

 

Let me guess, you came from WoW after they implemented the threat meter.

[Thundergulch]

"See?! This is why people need to actually LEARN how to play their character instead of relying on something to tell them when to back off on the threat."

 

Fixed that for ya.

 

almost all of the add-ons in wow made people stupid.

they all tell the player when to do stuff.

Learn your toon in a group/raid setting and how it performs with other classes and you'll be fine.

We don't need add-ons, or mods or dps meters in order to be elite at end game, we need brains.

[Jandi]

This forum really is worthless. No one even reads the posts, they just make a new post without having the slightest clue about any points that are being made. It's not a discussion, it's a spam fest. Worthless, completely worthless.

[iThrax]

The game is full of bugs at end game.

 

In other words - the game wasn't finished when they released it.

 

There was no time to think about quality of life features. There apparently wasn't time to test the end game either.

[Ancientwolfgr]

The most correct answer would be that "we don't know"; only Bioware does.

 

So instead, we should really look at it from the viewpoint of "what harm would it bring if threat meters were added"? Well, first is the obvious reason: developer cost. Obviously at the moment, developers are pretty stretched thin, fixing bugs, adding content, etc., so adding a new feature at high cost for minimal gain probably ranks pretty low on their lists. It's the same reason why addons/mods/macro support hasn't been added in yet, even though Bioware has stated clearly that they want this in some fashion sooner or later.

 

The second is something someone else mentioned: immersion. Now, personally, as an ex-hardcore WoW raider, I can never see raiding as anything more than spreadsheets, rotations, and so on, but there's still a large (read: ginormous) part of the MMO player base who might as well be playing with the UI turned off (and enjoy playing in this naive state). Adding more bars and more flashing UI things can hinder their enjoyment of the game, and let's face it: casuals are the moneymakers for MMO companies.

 

Difficulty: Threat meters would technically decrease difficulty, but would ultimately increase difficulty. The reason for this is because with a more technically empowered and enlightened player base, the raids must become harder to compensate. We've seen in WoW how the raids have evolved as an arms race between dungeon difficulty and addons. By adding in something even as simple as a threat meter, the dungeon difficulty would have to rise and possibly alienate casuals who were less able to use these tools.

 

Player communities: It was mentioned that threat meters might make them mandatory (which it might, but only due to the aforementioned reason stated before), and that hardcore players would belittle casuals for not using them. Aside from the fact that casuals will probably be doing less dps (lacking the theorycrafting knowledge to do so) so that their threat wouldn't even matter, I think this is a false statement regardless. Hardcore players are going to hate, threat meters or no.

 

 

Some very good points in the above worth contemplation.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Ancientwolfgr

[Calsidian]

Look guys, no one's worried, okay? Can you all stop waving your tanking e-peens around?

 

The question is "What reason is there to have it invisible?"

 

The question is not "Who can boast the most about not needing it?"

 

I can boast way more about not needing it than you can, that's for sure!

 

But yeah, no idea why it needs to be invisible.

[Dropro]

Honestly... I'd be just fine with a Target-of-Target option... Maybe thats in the works and thus it could be their reasoning for not having (Optional or not) a threat indication.

[zrinking]

Tanks know. Edited February 2, 2012 by zrinking

[Epicrisis]

With experience as a tank, you know what your threat is. You do quick math in your head. Sounds hard at first - like a robot has to do it for you - but its not that hard when you've tanked a hundred times in similar gear with similar people.

 

I like threat meters, cause then I don't have to do math in my head. I like damage meters, because then I can gauge how much threat people in my team have. I like indicators that say I'm about to lose threat, just in case my math is off. But I don't need these things. They just do part my job for me.

[harpuax]

With experience as a tank, you know what your threat is.

 

Please oh elite god of mmo tanking, explain to this poor noob exactly how? How much threat does every (because dps and healers need to be aware of their threat as well) ability generate? What value is given for threat and where are you getting your numbers?

[LyriaFrost]

I think the main reason that threat was invisible (and still is, in most games) is simply to add a little more challenge to the game.

 

It's kind of funny, in a way. People talk about how "easy" MMOs have gotten, and how they're not a challenge anymore. Well, yeah. When you're able to pin down every single number in the game, have it displayed in front of you, have macros to run your abilities and add-ons to show you every single aspect of the game, it's not really "playing a game" anymore. You're playing with a spreadsheet that has graphics.

 

As a DPSer, I have a good idea of what I can do before I'll pick up aggro, based on the tank I'm working with. If I do pick up too much, well, I have tools to help me deal with it until they can get it back. And I know, for the future, that I need to ratchet down my damage by a little bit. Same thing as a healer.

 

As a tank, I know when my taunts are ready, I know which abilities cause more threat. Sure, having a little window up at the top showing me all the numbers would be "useful", but it's just one more window I have to keep track of, and the more windows I have to keep track of, the more it's like watching a spreadsheet, rather than playing a game.

 

So sure, having all these copious amounts of "useful tools" can be handy for people. But it also dumbs the game down, and takes away a lot of the mystique, and FUN, of playing the game. At least to me.

 

When things have been segmented into all their convenient little boxed compartments, and it's no longer a game, I stop playing.

Edited February 2, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[inseeisyou]

I've tanked multiple operations and I can say I'm never really unsure about my threat level. Sure I don't have any quantifiable values for my threat, but I know what is and is not attacking me. I taunt when needed, and beat on the most dangerous mob to maintain threat. Simple, really.

 

Are you having trouble holding aggro and you just want something to blame?

[Roda]

Let me guess, you came from WoW after they implemented the threat meter.

 

Before I quit EQ2, they implimented a Threat meter as well. They're probably had theirs for a couple of years by this point.

 

Back in EQ2, I had x3 abilities which wiped my combat threat on the target mob and reset my Threat score to 1 pt below the person with the next highest threat. Thus if I had 90% Threat (with 100%+ meaning that I had pulled threat) and hit my threat wipe, the end results were very variable. If I was the only strong dps player present, then my 90% could easily be reset to 40% Threat. Yet if there were a bunch of strong dps players present, then the 1st wipe would only reset me to 85% Threat. This would force me to hit my other x2 Threat Wipes in a row. In the end, my Threat would start at 90% and would skip down to something like 90% > 85% > 75% > 30%. For this kind of situation, having the Threat meter available was invaluable since it give me proactive control which a Threat Loss mechanic that was completely subjective since it depended on the Threat levels of everyone present.

 

I'm not claiming that EQ2 is the most cutting edge MMO for setting a standard, but the concept of having a Threat Meter (which became part of EQ2's core UI choices) has become increasingly more common.

[wifeaggro]

Why do we have an invisible game mechanic? It's like not being able to see health or resource bars. What possible reason could there be for this?

 

Some bad answers I want to head off at the pass: "I can kinda sense where my threat is based on how hard I'm hitting things." Unless you're an robot, no you can't. You just can't. And even the robot would need to know all the threat values anyway, and we just don't have this information. You might have a vague notion of your threat, but this is the whole problem I'm on about. Why not just show us like heath or resources?

 

"See?! This is why they need to give us mods!" No, they just need to show us the values in game like every other value; health, resources, resolve, cooldowns... again, why is this one value singled out for invisibility?

 

Everything is invisible in this game. there are no combat logs the mechanics are very very stripped down. if we had visibility it would be way more easier then it is , its horribly easy already.

[Holden_Dissent]

Honestly... I'd be just fine with a Target-of-Target option... Maybe thats in the works and thus it could be their reasoning for not having (Optional or not) a threat indication.

 

can't you hit a key stroke to do target of target?

[Razhah]

It has probably already been stated in the 20 or so pages here that I am not going to read all of but, an indicator of skill for a DPS class is how far he/she can push it without pulling aggro from the tank. Aggro meters take away from that skill by making it rediculously easy. There should always be a little mystery in a game or else its all just math.