vekien Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I agree on this, because when you have gear vs gear, it just becomes "who has the highest numbers wins", nothing more, if you're both fairly skilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrianlol Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Any system that provides any method of obtaining a statistical advantage for one character over another character of the same class (not including consumables) is completely BROKEN. PvP is not and can never be based on an RPG because they are mutually exclusive concepts. RPGs are all about removing the player's impact on the outcome of the character's actions. PvP is all about removing the character's impact on the outcome in order to showcase the player's skill. What you want is a fighting game or an FPS. I don't see why you don't just go play one. It's EXACTLY what you want. You can even get the online play. With FPS you can play with multiple people at the same time. You should try it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroktar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) can i has my ranked WZ and arenas so i can fight people with the same gear instead reading this? ah and dont forget the cheezburger Edited February 1, 2012 by Kroktar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JingleHell Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Still eagerly awaiting some sort of response to my post on page 2 showcasing the DR on Expertise, and how it's only insurmountable if you consider it hopeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formulaic Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Competition is about WINNING. Not about being fair. People do what it takes to win. They grind for hours and hours on end to get the gear they need to WIN. What you are saying is the equivalent to rigging the olympics to give normal people a chance to beat trained and gifted athletes. Those guys "no lifed" it to get where they are. They had to put WORK in to be competitive. You might say "well this is just a game durr" but so is basketball and football, and those games you watch are played by people who bust their asses to be where they are. This thread just epitomizes american laziness and a feeling of entitlement. An athlete does not "grind for hours" to get the gear they need. They 'grind for hours' to (shockingly) get *BETTER AT THEIR EVENT*. For example - they might practice "passing the baton" (apparently they do)... and then, oddly, they would hopefully get better at passing the baton. In SWTOR terms - by playing PvP they would actually gain skill in playing PvP and become better players? Alternatively they could get some "gear" (or drugs as we call them) and win that way . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Competition is about WINNING. Not about being fair. People do what it takes to win. They grind for hours and hours on end to get the gear they need to WIN. What you are saying is the equivalent to rigging the olympics to give normal people a chance to beat trained and gifted athletes. Those guys "no lifed" it to get where they are. They had to put WORK in to be competitive. You might say "well this is just a game durr" but so is basketball and football, and those games you watch are played by people who bust their asses to be where they are. Actually, people who need e-peen bonuses to win are the ones who feel "entitled". I assure you, leveling the playing field does not hand wins to bad players. PVP gear hands wins to bad players. People who want to win more consistently still have to practice to be the best. Practicing to be the best however is something laudable. Grinding to be the "best" is a delusion. Edited February 1, 2012 by Qishari inappropriate content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrianlol Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) People complain about gear vs gear whoever has better wins blah blah. The thing is...what about when both people geared? Then what happens? Does the game just implode? No, it doesn't...and you get to see who is a better player. O wait...this game isn't balanced flawlessly, so it's still more of a class vs class with whoever rolled the better class. I propose that we make the game only have one class, with no gear....not even a lightsaber. Whoever can punch their way to victory first wins. Then we will see the TRUE SKILLS Edited February 1, 2012 by Qishari quoted/replied to removed content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amp_ Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Time is not the determining factor in gearing up, luck with the RNG is. You can pvp for hours and walk away with no gear. Someone can pop on, do their daily, and have more to show for it. The reward system is far more broken than the stat. A reward system based in luck does not reward people evenly and only perpetuates the gap between the haves and the have nots. Yes, you can get commendations, but if you don't get lucky with your bags you will be outpaced by anyone who is. I'm not saying Expertise doesn't come with issues. However, when the means to close that gap are not reliable, the system becomes worse than the stat. Maybe if some of you took the time to come down from your high horse once in a while you would understand this. Edited February 1, 2012 by Qishari quoted/replied to removed content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJMTL Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yes, let's make PvP even more pointless than it already is. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrianlol Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 An athlete does not "grind for hours" to get the gear they need. They 'grind for hours' to (shockingly) get *BETTER AT THEIR EVENT*. For example - they might practice "passing the baton" (apparently they do)... and then, oddly, they would hopefully get better at passing the baton. In SWTOR terms - by playing PvP they would actually gain skill in playing PvP and become better players? Alternatively they could get some "gear" (or drugs as we call them) and win that way . Right because they don't have grueling 2 a days in the off season and those hours and hours in the weight room were spent passing a baton...not doing work or anything. Work is work. The cool thing about MMO pvp is that you can grind gear WHILE learning how to play your class. Nothing is more effective at making a person L2P than being at a disadvantage. And when you DO beat someone that has better gear than you...how fulfilling is it? I find winning when the odds are against me to be the most invigorating feeling in an MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 The "Work ethic" of PVP response is a canned one I have heard many times before. They try to tell you that if you were not lazy, then you would just go grind. This is how they delude themselves into thinking they are "good at" something just because the numbers say they are. Back when I first started PVPing in SWG, a game where everyone could buy the PVP gear because it was all crafted, you had a different and MUCH more exciting grind. It was called dueling. A lot. Get together with friends and "spar". Exchange strategies, builds, and pointers. Practice your timing. Gear was a factor, but it became part of the perfecting of one's play style. Not an "I win" button. Did I gear for this statistic or that statistic? Which one better compliments my strategy? Rather then a flat "I WIN!" button that for some reason people who have deluded themselves into believing they are PVPers seem to feel is critical. You have been duped if you believe that you have done anything worth bragging about if your gear stat is critical to your ability to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 What you want is a fighting game or an FPS. I don't see why you don't just go play one. It's EXACTLY what you want. You can even get the online play. With FPS you can play with multiple people at the same time. You should try it out! So what you are saying is that it is ok for MMOs to charge for broken PvP because FPSs offer an alternative? That is a very strange argument. I guess doctors should be allowed to charge for oil changes since mechanics can do them correctly? Broken PvP is broken PvP regardless of the game it is latched on to. You cannot have a balanced RPG PvP experience because that is a logically impossible result to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfrio Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 can i has my ranked WZ and arenas so i can fight people with the same gear instead reading this? ah and dont forget the cheezburger nuff said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Right because they don't have grueling 2 a days in the off season and those hours and hours in the weight room were spent passing a baton...not doing work or anything. Work is work. The cool thing about MMO pvp is that you can grind gear WHILE learning how to play your class. Nothing is more effective at making a person L2P than being at a disadvantage. Sorry, but this analogy fails. A more accurate analogy would be if that new athlete had to benchpress 400 pounds as his starting workout and they got shot-up with steroids the more they sat in the gym trying to lift that weight in futility. That would go on until they were roided up as much as the veteran athletes and could now lift that 400 pounds. And when you DO beat someone that has better gear than you...how fulfilling is it? I find winning when the odds are against me to be the most invigorating feeling in an MMO. While that is certainly invigorating, in UO I also found it more invigorating beating a 5-man gank squad when I was by myself by out playing them, regardless of gear (btw I was a naked Wrestler-Mage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Right because they don't have grueling 2 a days in the off season and those hours and hours in the weight room were spent passing a baton...not doing work or anything. Work is work. The cool thing about MMO pvp is that you can grind gear WHILE learning how to play your class. Nothing is more effective at making a person L2P than being at a disadvantage. Grinding as the "work ethic" is for bad players. If you are a good player your grinding is actually PVPing and learning the best strategy and practicing your reactions. And when you DO beat someone that has better gear than you...how fulfilling is it? I find winning when the odds are against me to be the most invigorating feeling in an MMO. And when you win because of YOUR skill and not a set of code EVERY kill can be that invigorating. Trust me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greennunu Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Pretty sure balancing out your stats on gear is part of the skill thing. Right now most people just dump as much as they want into expertise and hope its the best stats for PvP, eventually with testing done people will find that for their class this is not always the case. Gear tailored to your spec and playstyle is part of the skill that is in MMO PvP. Without a noticable progression with time investment they might as well remove the leveling all together and let everyone end game everything PvE included. PvP gearing is in response to raid gearing, it creates a progression for PvP so that a PvE hero can't come in with their gear (world or WZ) and demolish the PvPers. Removing the PvP gear doesn't level out the playing field, now instead of getting kicked all over the field by the PvPer who has spent his time PvPing you get demolished by the PvEer who just wants to get a few kicks in for the day. That is unless you go and PvE for their gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 So what you are saying is that it is ok for MMOs to charge for broken PvP because FPSs offer an alternative? That is a very strange argument. I guess doctors should be allowed to charge for oil changes since mechanics can do them correctly? Broken PvP is broken PvP regardless of the game it is latched on to. You cannot have a balanced RPG PvP experience because that is a logically impossible result to achieve. I think the core of the problem here is that we have allowed greedy executives to re-define what MMO PVP is into something they hope will keep us playing their game longer. They are trying to apply the PVE grinding formula to PVP as far as what will keep people coming back. Gear progression is nonsense. Give us some RVR objectives that impact the game world we play in. THAT will keep us coming back. Or if you really must cater to the "donkeys" who think that the carrot on the stick they got is a magical item that makes them valid as human beings then give us a bracket where Expertise does not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlagaNerezza Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 /translation I want gear handed to me in pvp. I want the statistical advantage to be capped at 5% If you want the 5% bonus fine. Grind. You shouldn't need 20%. Whoever gave pvp gear that big of an edge is dumb. Period. That is the facts on battlemaster expertise gear verses level 50 gear no expertise. 20%. That is a huge crutch. I say reward the grinders with reasonable advantages. DON"T NERF THE GEAR. Improve the availablity of gear below valor 60 with expertise PREFERRABLY using crafters. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrianlol Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Grinding as the "work ethic" is for bad players. If you are a good player your grinding is actually PVPing and learning the best strategy and practicing your reactions. And when you win because of YOUR skill and not a set of code EVERY kill can be that invigorating. Trust me. no, because certain classes have statistical advantages over others as well..and then specs beyond that. This game won't have perfect balance even if we weren't wearing gear. But I'm telling you this now. Tons of people wouldn't do WZ at all if they didn't have to grind gear and then the ques for all you try hards that want to showcase you "skill" would go through the roof, if they aren't already that is. The problem in this game is there aren't any really 'interesting' abilities that can be used skillfully. So you find this disparaging gap between geared and nongeared players because "outplaying" someone isn't as much of a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosefeathers Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 ITT people with **** gear explain how good gear is bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calei Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 They would have to do some kind of bolstering system in warzones and world pvp for level 50s. You could make expertise a base stat for max level players so everyone has the same amount... You will still have the same problem. Six months down the road you haven't had any gear progression at all since you are a die hard PVPer. The person who has been raiding has better gear than you, does more damage, has more health, more crit etc. Not if the stats are normalized. Using a mathematical formula you can make ANY PVE gear of any tier deal Y damage to player X. Tier 1 player with 100 strength attacks player X with 1,500 health for 100 dmg. Tier 100 player with 10,000 strength attacks player X with 150,000 health for 10,000 dmg. Tier 100 player with 10,000 strength attacks player X with 1,500 health for 100 dmg. No matter the gear, player X dies in 15 hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RycheMykola Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 People who like to pvp don't need a carrot on a stick to do so. Before WoW implemented the honor system, there was no gear for pvp, but players still pvped anyway (I miss SS/TM). Its fun to pit yourself against others simply because you could. In an mmo pvp is most dynamic thing the game. I think the carrot on stick model has ruined mmorpg pvp as whole. I look forward to GW2 PVP back then, people in Naxxramas 40 gear OWNED all others. People were crying back then they needed to do PVE raiding to be competitive. Hence, the introduction of PVP gear into WOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 I want the statistical advantage to be capped at 5% If you want the 5% bonus fine. Grind. You shouldn't need 20%. Whoever gave pvp gear that big of an edge is dumb. Period. That is the facts on battlemaster expertise gear verses level 50 gear no expertise. 20%. That is a huge crutch. I say reward the grinders with reasonable advantages. DON"T NERF THE GEAR. Improve the availablity of gear below valor 60 with expertise PREFERRABLY using crafters. That is all. I miss the player crafter based economy of SWG. Where someone could actually be KNOWN for being a good crafter. And have that be something of note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolbenito Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 What makes the 1-49 bracket so "fair" is that 30-49 have a clear advantage over 10-29 for many classes. Don't act like everyone is on equal footing with no differences at all, that isn't even remotely true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RycheMykola Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I want the statistical advantage to be capped at 5% If you want the 5% bonus fine. Grind. You shouldn't need 20%. Whoever gave pvp gear that big of an edge is dumb. Period. That is the facts on battlemaster expertise gear verses level 50 gear no expertise. 20%. That is a huge crutch. I say reward the grinders with reasonable advantages. DON"T NERF THE GEAR. Improve the availablity of gear below valor 60 with expertise PREFERRABLY using crafters. That is all. I can agree with this. Great idea. Would actually give the professions some useful gear to make too. PVPing at 50 with 0 expertise is rough! Edited February 1, 2012 by RycheMykola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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