Hardmode bosses need mechanics not unfairness

[IThrowRocks]

Okay - so your preferred option to address an issue that many people take exception to is to simply ignore it because they won't change it anyway.

 

That helps me greatly to assess where you are coming from.

 

I just don't know what you people want. The game implements mechanics. The game has timers so that you face the mechanics head on while still keeping a tight rotation. If you want the mechanics to be more difficult then complain for more difficult encounters but that argument is completely independant of an enrage timer.

 

And what is all this about enrage timers limiting group composition? You are mad because tank/heal/dps/dps is the only viable group comp? This is the group composition that the game has because it makes sense. One guy needs to absorb the damage, another guy needs to keep the party alive, and the rest can focus on damage. So heals/heals/heals/tank isn't ok because it is too easy to just keep everyone alive. Tank/heals/dps/dps isn't ok because it's too contsricting?

 

What do you want? 2tank/2heals? The ability to just pick up 4 people and run something without any care for composition? I mean what is your point with this crap?

 

The game has an optimal composition and it's not restricting. It's just the way the game needs to be played. You don't see baseball teams running two catchers, 5 infielders and one outfielder.

[Thyferra]

Well you see football teams that run one goalie, four defense, five midfield, 1 forward or 1 goalie, four defense, 3 midfield, 3 forward.

 

And i never said that you should not care for composition but make it a little bit more flexible.

Why cant i run a flashpoint with 2 tanks, 1 heals, 1 dps ? Only because of enrange timers. even if all players are skilled and have the gear they might just fail because of enrange timers.

 

Of course it makes sense to run the optimal setup but if you cant find that second dps (yes highly unlikely) or all other dps in your guild are already doing something but you have that great other player on you sometimes just can't bring him because he is not dps.

 

There are 3 "archetypes" in this game. Tank, Healer, Damage. So every "archetype" should be present to complete a zone. Thats the triangle this game is build on. But why does this game require the last person to be a dps in most cases? especially when you are not already geared out.

[Loendar]

I just don't know what you people want. The game implements mechanics. The game has timers so that you face the mechanics head on while still keeping a tight rotation. If you want the mechanics to be more difficult then complain for more difficult encounters but that argument is completely independant of an enrage timer.

 

And what is all this about enrage timers limiting group composition? You are mad because tank/heal/dps/dps is the only viable group comp? This is the group composition that the game has because it makes sense. One guy needs to absorb the damage, another guy needs to keep the party alive, and the rest can focus on damage. So heals/heals/heals/tank isn't ok because it is too easy to just keep everyone alive. Tank/heals/dps/dps isn't ok because it's too contsricting?

 

What do you want? 2tank/2heals? The ability to just pick up 4 people and run something without any care for composition? I mean what is your point with this crap?

 

The game has an optimal composition and it's not restricting. It's just the way the game needs to be played. You don't see baseball teams running two catchers, 5 infielders and one outfielder.

 

If you can't figure out what people want at this point in the thread I can't help you. I couldn't have been laid out any more clearly than it has been by myself, X and many others.

 

You are asking again about group composition that I *just* addressed in my previous response and has also been addressed by others after that.

 

The optimal composition is the ONLY viable composition unless you are overgeared for the fight. That is the definition of restricting.

 

I beg you - play something other than WoW or SWTOR and see how actual design works. You are showing that you aren't qualified/experienced enough outside your limited MMO scope to understand what we are talking about.

[SliggXx]

Engrage is bad/lazy game design. Period.

 

If they want to do a gear check, there are ways to do it without it being cheesey.

[AlyII]

Please stop trying to argue with Loendar.

 

Just be thankful that the game is as it is, with enrages and won't be changed.

 

 

We can't be thankful for an endgame content with lots of problems and the enrage timers are one of the biggest problem for some of us. You can't simply dismiss us just because you don't have this problem, not when there are simple solutions to fix this for everyone. Not to mention that feedback from players is the most important tool for improving the game.

[Frozenshiva]

 

I beg you - play something other than WoW or SWTOR and see how actual design works. You are showing that you aren't qualified/experienced enough outside your limited MMO scope to understand what we are talking about.

 

Right back at you!

All you know is EQ2. A game that... by a large stretch is outdated, old and somewhat dying.

All that being said, i'm not saying its a BAD game. But you ALSO have to learn to move on.

Do i think SWTOR/WoW's way of doing it is perfect? No way.

Do i think there are alternatives? Yes way.

Do i think there needs to be a balance between new and old? Yes again.

 

You people need to learn about compromise and adapting.

 

You must also learn that, as much as it pains me to admit, at the end of the day the majority needs to be satisfied.

It's ok to loose subs, it's ok to loose money, as long as the amount lost is smaller than the amount still flowing in and the end amount creates a satisfying profit.

 

I do also think it's not good to compromise too often because then we end up with bad games altogether that aren't worth much grain. However i would hardly consider this issue the game-breaking one you make it out to be.

[VulcanLogic]

You're right. Every other MMO that doesn't use an enrage timer on raid fights (see pretty much every fight in EQ2 and EQ1) gets by due to a full raid of healers.

 

Keep on believing that - I would hate to let reality and 10+ years of MMO fact get in your way.

 

The people saying the above have never seen that happen in practice and yet continue to cling to it like it is some kind of MMO truth.

 

Yeah and EQ1 and 2 were so well designed and people liked that kind of raiding so much that more people subscribed to them than any other MMO. Oh wait.

[Loendar]

Right back at you!

All you know is EQ2. A game that... by a large stretch is outdated, old and somewhat dying.

All that being said, i'm not saying its a BAD game. But you ALSO have to learn to move on.

Do i think SWTOR/WoW's way of doing it is perfect? No way.

Do i think there are alternatives? Yes way.

Do i think there needs to be a balance between new and old? Yes again.

 

You people need to learn about compromise and adapting.

 

You must also learn that, as much as it pains me to admit, at the end of the day the majority needs to be satisfied.

It's ok to loose subs, it's ok to loose money, as long as the amount lost is smaller than the amount still flowing in and the end amount creates a satisfying profit.

 

I do also think it's not good to compromise too often because then we end up with bad games altogether that aren't worth much grain. However i would hardly consider this issue the game-breaking one you make it out to be.

 

Hardly.

 

EQ1, EQ2, LotR, Rift, DDO, Vanguard, STO, DCUO, UO - the ONLY thing I haven't played is WoW and given the mentality and narrowmindedness of those I see here I'm thankful for that.

 

You know what the vast majority of those above don't do? Hard enrage timers on every encounter. SWTOR and WoW are the exception in taking that route, not the mainstream.

 

Just because WoW is the McDonald's of the MMO world doesn't make their implementation the best or even second best.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Loendar

[Loendar]

Yeah and EQ1 and 2 were so well designed and people liked that kind of raiding so much that more people subscribed to them than any other MMO. Oh wait.

 

Are you really attempting to say that those games aren't a success?

 

Because if you are - you are talking out of your arse and your opinion is likely reflective of that.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Loendar

[AlyII]

Right back at you!

All you know is EQ2. A game that... by a large stretch is outdated, old and somewhat dying.

All that being said, i'm not saying its a BAD game. But you ALSO have to learn to move on.

Do i think SWTOR/WoW's way of doing it is perfect? No way.

Do i think there are alternatives? Yes way.

Do i think there needs to be a balance between new and old? Yes again.

 

You people need to learn about compromise and adapting.

 

You must also learn that, as much as it pains me to admit, at the end of the day the majority needs to be satisfied.

It's ok to loose subs, it's ok to loose money, as long as the amount lost is smaller than the amount still flowing in and the end amount creates a satisfying profit.

 

I do also think it's not good to compromise too often because then we end up with bad games altogether that aren't worth much grain. However i would hardly consider this issue the game-breaking one you make it out to be.

 

 

Why to lose subs, why to lose money when you can take out the timers and add an extra "difficulty" mode with speed timers?

Edited February 16, 2012 by AlyII

[Xaearth]

You people need to learn about compromise and adapting.

 

There's a difference between compromising and being a sheep.

 

That said, I think I'll continue refraining from this discussion until I get over this blasted cold and can actually debate something without getting a migraine.

[XaviourEQ]

what are enrage timers? /sarcasm off

[Onnya]

Honestly, adding timers is the laziest way possible the devs could have chosen for HM and it does not actually add any difficulty, but limits the group composition and makes you feel like you reach a dead end. Timers could have been used as bonuses, in special rush modes, to motivate players to get something extra, and not as penalty: you don't do it you don't get anything and you are not allowed to go on. Anyways, I feel the mechanics lack creativity and instead of the group thinking of special tactics and trying to adapt these to the group composition, all you have to do is to get the right classes then dps rush. Not to mention that companions (that normally count against the party size number, so you might be tempted to think they equal a player) are out of question for the HM.

I've been playing with three friends, but two of us have chosen healer classes, one tank and one dps. We've chosen classes that we thought might be fun to play and characters we wanted to discover, not what is "required"to form a group, so, when entering a HM we obviously got really disappointed. So why continue playing if I can't play with my friends? And I thought that is the whole point of a MMO: to play with friends with characters you like and to have fun. Dead ends and timers are not something we consider to be fun.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Onnya

[Frozenshiva]

Hardly.

 

EQ1, EQ2, LotR, Rift, DDO, Vanguard, STO, DCUO, UO - the ONLY thing I haven't played is WoW and given the mentality and narrowmindedness of those I see here I'm thankful for that.

 

You know what the vast majority of those above don't do? Hard enrage timers on every encounter. SWTOR and WoW are the exception in taking that route, not the mainstream.

 

Just because WoW is the McDonald's of the MMO world doesn't make their implementation the best or even second best.

 

1. Rift is a WoW copy almost entirely with some fancy ideas added to it and even more ideas lacking.

2. Almost all MMO's you mentioned are either F2P or transaction based.

3. P2P and F2P games are different in more ways than you can imagine.

4. WoW, as much as i hate bringing it up, has used plenty of ways to challenge people, and the one thing that we've learned from that game, with the largest subscription base in MMO history, is that Enrage timers work better than people like you would ever admit.

 

5. And this one is the most important one, STOP COMPARING billiards to 9ball or snooker.

Said it time and time again, but just because they're all called MMO's and use the same base layout doesn't mean they're the same game. The game put down its ground rules. If you like the game and its rules, you play it. If you don't like the game and its rules you don't. If you do decide to play it even after deciding that you don't like the game or the rules, you're being ignorant about it and there's really no argument in the world that could help you see that.

 

Let me put it more bluntly.

Me and my friends want to go play some billiards. YOU are the annoying friend we never really take with us, because he always tries to be special. But one day we decide its ok to let you come with us to our billiards game. When we get there however, YOU are being a pri.ck about it, and try to convince us all to play 9ball instead, because you find it much more fun and even have the nerve to call another friend of yours to play 9ball. You're now disrupting the billiards game. Congrats, you're a pri.ck.

 

 

If you can't play by the rules of the game with the utmost respect, BUZZ OFF and find the game you want to play!.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Frozenshiva

[Xaearth]

5. And this one is the most important one, STOP COMPARING billiards to 9ball or snooker.

Said it time and time again, but just because they're all called MMO's and use the same base layout doesn't mean they're the same game. The game put down its ground rules. If you like the game and its rules, you play it. If you don't like the game and its rules you don't. If you do decide to play it even after deciding that you don't like the game or the rules, you're being ignorant about it and there's really no argument in the world that could help you see that.

 

Let me put it more bluntly.

Me and my friends want to go play some billiards. YOU are the annoying friend we never really take with us, because he always tries to be special. But one day we decide its ok to let you come with us to our billiards game. When we get there however, YOU are being a pri.ck about it, and try to convince us all to play 9ball instead, because you find it much more fun and even have the nerve to call another friend of yours to play 9ball. You're now disrupting the billiards game. Congrats, you're a pri.ck.

 

I think you might find a better analogy with the theme park.

You know, you bring your special friend that isn't quite tall enough to ride the rides, get to the ride entrance and laugh at him for being too short, then feel like a dick afterwards when you realize you came as a group and promised not to leave him anywhere so you can't ride the ride either.

[Frozenshiva]

Honestly, adding timers is the laziest way possible the devs could have chosen for HM and it does not actually add any difficulty, but limits the group composition and makes you feel like you reach a dead end. Timers could have been used as bonuses, in special rush modes, to motivate players to get something extra, and not as penalty: you don't do it you don't get anything and you are not allowed to go on. Anyways, I feel the mechanics lack creativity and instead of the group thinking of special tactics and trying to adapt these to the group composition, all you have to do is to get the right classes then dps rush. Not to mention that companions (that normally count against the party size number, so you might be tempted to think they equal a player) are out of question for the HM.

I've been playing with three friends, but two of us have chosen healer classes, one tank and one dps. We've chosen classes that we thought might be fun to play and characters we wanted to discover, not what is "required"to form a group, so, when entering a HM we obviously got really disappointed. So why continue playing if I can't play with my friends? And I thought that is the whole point of a MMO: to play with friends with characters you like and to have fun. Dead ends and timers are not something we consider to be fun.

 

Every game has its limitations. If a board game says it can be played with 4-6 players, bringing 3 or 8 players to the game won't work now will it?

 

That being said, you can still enjoy a lot of things as a group, you can do group quests, those only require the 2/4 ppl, regardless of spec.

And if you're really want to play with your friends, one of the healers could always go DPS. I know its not the answer you're looking for, but the option is there.

Lastly, there's one more reason why a group requires more dps than tanks and healers, and that is because, its a proven fact, that in any MMO, the DPS toHEAL/TANK ratio will always be in favor of DPS, of AT LEAST 2:1. (tho generally it's a lot higher than that, going up to even 7dps for each tank/heal)

If the group wouldn't consolidate the DPS spots, you'd have more people pissed off at the end of the day for being pidgeon-holed into a healing/tanking spec. Much like one of you two in your 4 friends group. Only that it would happen 10times more often than now.

[Frozenshiva]

I think you might find a better analogy with the theme park.

You know, you bring your special friend that isn't quite tall enough to ride the rides, get to the ride entrance and laugh at him for being too short, then feel like a dick afterwards when you realize you came as a group and promised not to leave him anywhere so you can't ride the ride either.

 

How does your analogy relate to this situation? AT ALL?

Your analogy doesn't encompass the 2 major issues at hand.

1. comparing 2 relatively similar yet different objects/things/issues/situations.

2. forcing one of the 2 relatively similar yet different objects/things/issues/situations to turn into/become the other.

 

You're just using your analogy as a moral compass that has no baring to the case in point.

[Loendar]

1. Rift is a WoW copy almost entirely with some fancy ideas added to it and even more ideas lacking.

2. Almost all MMO's you mentioned are either F2P or transaction based.

3. P2P and F2P games are different in more ways than you can imagine.

4. WoW, as much as i hate bringing it up, has used plenty of ways to challenge people, and the one thing that we've learned from that game, with the largest subscription base in MMO history, is that Enrage timers work better than people like you would ever admit.

 

5. And this one is the most important one, STOP COMPARING billiards to 9ball or snooker.

Said it time and time again, but just because they're all called MMO's and use the same base layout doesn't mean they're the same game. The game put down its ground rules. If you like the game and its rules, you play it. If you don't like the game and its rules you don't. If you do decide to play it even after deciding that you don't like the game or the rules, you're being ignorant about it and there's really no argument in the world that could help you see that.

 

Let me put it more bluntly.

Me and my friends want to go play some billiards. YOU are the annoying friend we never really take with us, because he always tries to be special. But one day we decide its ok to let you come with us to our billiards game. When we get there however, YOU are being a pri.ck about it, and try to convince us all to play 9ball instead, because you find it much more fun and even have the nerve to call another friend of yours to play 9ball. You're now disrupting the billiards game. Congrats, you're a pri.ck.

 

 

If you can't play by the rules of the game with the utmost respect, BUZZ OFF and find the game you want to play!.

 

Did you play any of the games listed above? Are you aware that the entire MMO market is moving to the F2P / micro-transaction mode? Are you aware that a game going F2P has no impact on how that game is designed or in any way reflects poorly on it?

 

Are you aware that the games listed above offer BOTH F2P and subscription models? Because it allows them to tap into a customer base that previously they didn't have via the F2P model and it turns out that it is extremely lucrative.

 

If you are planning to base your 'good' MMO concept on games that are F2P or not you might as well stop playing MMO's altogether because that is the future - like it or not.

 

If you are unable to get past your obvious bias as outlined above in glaring detail how can you expect me to take your seriously?

Edited February 17, 2012 by Loendar

[Frozenshiva]

Did you play any of the games listed above? Are you aware that the entire MMO market is moving to the F2P / micro-transaction mode? Are you aware that a game going F2P has no impact on how that game is designed or in any way reflects poorly on it?

 

If you are unable to get past your obvious bias as outlined above in glaring detail how can you expect me to take your seriously?

 

That line right there pretty much sum up all your knowledge about the matter. You don't have to take me seriously, just as i have given up to take you seriously several pages ago.

I'm not here to teach you about how these things work, and even if i did, nothing would stick. Not because you're not capable of understanding, but because you have no interest in doing so.

Just because you played many games, doesn't mean you know how to make one.

[Loendar]

That line right there pretty much sum up all your knowledge about the matter. You don't have to take me seriously, just as i have given up to take you seriously several pages ago.

I'm not here to teach you about how these things work, and even if i did, nothing would stick. Not because you're not capable of understanding, but because you have no interest in doing so.

Just because you played many games, doesn't mean you know how to make one.

 

And thankfully for all of us taking this thread seriously the portion you chose to underline shows how critically ill-informed you are.

[Frozenshiva]

And thankfully for all of us taking this thread seriously the portion you chose to underline shows how critically ill-informed you are.

 

 

What you want me to point out how ill-informed YOU are about the "entire MMO-market" going F2P? I suggest you go look up your sources again.

 

Or do you want me to start listing all MMO's i played and my achievements like a snob to "prove my worth" like many others? This kind of trifle does not hold dust on the internet.

[AlyII]

1. Rift is a WoW copy almost entirely with some fancy ideas added to it and even more ideas lacking.

2. Almost all MMO's you mentioned are either F2P or transaction based.

3. P2P and F2P games are different in more ways than you can imagine.

4. WoW, as much as i hate bringing it up, has used plenty of ways to challenge people, and the one thing that we've learned from that game, with the largest subscription base in MMO history, is that Enrage timers work better than people like you would ever admit.

 

5. And this one is the most important one, STOP COMPARING billiards to 9ball or snooker.

Said it time and time again, but just because they're all called MMO's and use the same base layout doesn't mean they're the same game. The game put down its ground rules. If you like the game and its rules, you play it. If you don't like the game and its rules you don't. If you do decide to play it even after deciding that you don't like the game or the rules, you're being ignorant about it and there's really no argument in the world that could help you see that.

 

Let me put it more bluntly.

Me and my friends want to go play some billiards. YOU are the annoying friend we never really take with us, because he always tries to be special. But one day we decide its ok to let you come with us to our billiards game. When we get there however, YOU are being a pri.ck about it, and try to convince us all to play 9ball instead, because you find it much more fun and even have the nerve to call another friend of yours to play 9ball. You're now disrupting the billiards game. Congrats, you're a pri.ck.

 

 

If you can't play by the rules of the game with the utmost respect, BUZZ OFF and find the game you want to play!.

 

 

But I want to play this game, just not with 'enrage timers". I want this to be an OPTION that I can disable or enable if I choose so. If you don't like options in this game then "BUZZ OFF and find the game you want to play".

[Loendar]

What you want me to point out how ill-informed YOU are about the "entire MMO-market" going F2P? I suggest you go look up your sources again.

 

Or do you want me to start listing all MMO's i played and my achievements like a snob to "prove my worth" like many others? This kind of trifle does not hold dust on the internet.

 

You have access to the Internet and Google - feel free to use it. It will take a minor search on 'f2p future of mmo' and you will find article after article taking direct quotes from industry veterans and those actually making the games stating that is the direction they are going.

 

Like SOE games or not they have embraced the model and continue to be AAA products. If you are going to try to convince me the Sony isn't a major player in the MMO market then we have nothing else to discuss.

 

Even WoW is feeling the pinch and doing the 'first 20 levels' intro to the concept.

 

My sources are those making the decisions - I have no idea what yours are.

[Xanxari]

I have given up!

 

Enrage=Boss damage increase only=BAD design

 

Enrage=Boss introduces new mechanics(stuns, needs to be kited etc.)=interesting challenge

 

 

Sorry I cannot get it any simpler, so that all of you EPIC players with lack of understanding grasp it.

If all of you flamers would just for once unplug and think about it we would have no argument at all.

 

BioWare needs to improve challenge, not 1 shots. Period.

 

IT'S NOT ABOUT IT BEING EASIER, IT'S ABOUT IT BEING BETTER AND MORE FUN!!!!!

 

Bye

 

 

 

if you cant make it in time you are just bad and dont have the gear or the skills for it, Enrage timers are there to make sure you got A) the skills to kill the boss or B) the gear to kill the boss, L2P ****, ppl like you are the reason Operations and raids is getting nerfed back to the *********** stoneage..............................

[justregularjoe]

Most of the Hard mode bosses do have mechanics...

 

The only ones I have seen enrage are doing so because there was not enough DPS in the group, or in the case of Hk-47 in Foundry which is pretty much the mechanic of the fight (and is quite challenging !)

 

While I agree that enrage timers are a shoddy way to cap encounters, it also serves its purpose to not allow people to "brute force" their way through content, which personally I am happy about.