Hardmode bosses need mechanics not unfairness

[Loendar]

You're so funny, actually thinking Hardmodes are supposed to be "hard" and not the lvl 50 equivalent of their normal 1-49 counterparts.

 

There's a reason for nightmare mode you know...

 

 

 

I've suggested mechanics several times that people keep outright refusing to address.

 

Use of one or more of the following mechanics can and will test DPS by the very nature of the fact that you can't sit around and rely on the tanks and healers to make sure no one ever dies:

1) Make bosses have less predictable aggro patterns (less easily tanked)

2) Spawn adds that cannot be easily tanked (as a function of damage/armor penetration/lifesteal rather than threat), cannot be mezzed, and near-instantly respawn when killed

3) Spawn adds that cannot be mezzed, and heal the boss with a lifesteal mechanic based on the amount of max health of their target (tanks tanking them = higher heals on the boss)

4) Take people out of the fight unexpectedly for a significant amount of time, either through death or a banish mechanic of some sort

 

These are only a few examples of mechanics that would require encounters to be completed efficiently and promptly, but, more importantly, also puts a burden in testing the DPS skill in their ability to survive an encounter without relying solely on the healer and tank. In other words, everyone is held responsible for their own survival and the tanks and healers support the innate survival skills of each individual group member.

 

 

 

That's not a function of skill, not even for the "character".

It's a function of having a wealthy enough benefactor to make saving the princess trivial.

 

 

 

Except good, skilled DPS can and will make up for the shortfalls/mistakes of a tank or healer, but will then just end up failing to the enrage timer because they are putting support of the group ahead of optimal numbers. In other words, DPS contributing to group success can and will lead to the DPS getting blamed for "not doing their job."

 

 

 

Or, you know, you could actually make the encounter the least bit threatening to players to begin with so those 30 seconds would matter.

 

 

 

Goodie. "Soft enrages."

Too bad the party still isn't actually being threatened.

The healer just can't do the Boris "I AM INVINCIBLE!" anymore...

 

It turns out after posting on this thread for something akin to four days - stating and re-stating my position. Answering all the questions I've been asked (Ilintar asked a lot of very astute things and had many valid points - and he did it all without being a condescending tool.. much appreciated) only to have those responses ignored and then asked again - over and over. I have finally run out of patience with the thread.

 

I can sympathize that people on the enrage timer side of things feel in their heart of hearts that is has some greater purpose. The items laid out by Ilintar are certainly prime examples of how it can be interpreted and assuredly those impressions aren't 'wrong' at all, I just don't agree that they are what the timer is actually for. You can find all sorts of ways to justify it but at the core it is nothing more than a timer that goes off at a preset time to punish people for not being fast enough. And that continues to be the crux of the issue for me - all things being equal I don't think punishing the player base for not wanting to min/max is healthy.

 

People don't like the other options that have been presented over and over again by myself, Xaerth and others? Okay, fair enough. But that doesn't mean that you can just ignore them as if they don't exist because you think it makes your argument stronger. The fact is there are a lot of ways to do DPS checks without an enrage timer - tons of them, in fact. They are played out daily in games that aren't SWTOR. You think that doing the DPS check during the encounter is boring but putting a timer on the event (one that a lot posting here never even hit) isn't? That's downright nutty. In most cases you aren't even hitting the mechanic that you are so vehementally defending as 'required'. How does something you aren't tripping make the encounter harder? Answer: it doesn't. But it DOES punish those that don't share your min/max playstyle.

 

As I mentioned at the top - I'll continue to read this thread only because people continue to take me out of context, ignore what I've said or outright state things as facts that are opinions at best (I've been guilty of the last over the thread, assuredly - but hey - I'm human too). And I like to see what strange new way there is of twisting what I and others have been saying - it will serve me well for the next thread I decide to participate in knowing who I'm dealing with. ;p

Edited February 7, 2012 by Loendar

[Ruwe]

You're so funny, actually thinking Hardmodes are supposed to be "hard" and not the lvl 50 equivalent of their normal 1-49 counterparts.

 

There's a reason for nightmare mode you know...

 

 

 

I've suggested mechanics several times that people keep outright refusing to address.

 

Use of one or more of the following mechanics can and will test DPS by the very nature of the fact that you can't sit around and rely on the tanks and healers to make sure no one ever dies:

1) Make bosses have less predictable aggro patterns (less easily tanked)

I don't personally agree with this one as I think tanks have a hard enough time in this game when your dps is on the ball, but I'm sure we could work around it if the implemented it.

2) Spawn adds that cannot be easily tanked (as a function of damage/armor penetration/lifesteal rather than threat), cannot be mezzed, and near-instantly respawn when killed

KP comes to mind here, the first boss. Kill the adds before the boss eats them or suffer his short enrage buff

3) Spawn adds that cannot be mezzed, and heal the boss with a lifesteal mechanic based on the amount of max health of their target (tanks tanking them = higher heals on the boss)

Kaon comes to mind here.... bonus boss, you have to CC and focus burn the mobs that spawn or they will eat your party

4) Take people out of the fight unexpectedly for a significant amount of time, either through death or a banish mechanic of some sort

Eternity Vault, final boss. nough said.

 

These are only a few examples of mechanics that would require encounters to be completed efficiently and promptly, but, more importantly, also puts a burden in testing the DPS skill in their ability to survive an encounter without relying solely on the healer and tank. In other words, everyone is held responsible for their own survival and the tanks and healers support the innate survival skills of each individual group member.

 

They do implement almost all of your suggestions, but not in all FP's, most of those mechanics are in Raids and the new FP's. They are listening, something we have to remember is that this is still early days (no I'm not making excuses for BW, just stating a fact) my guess is that encounters will just get better and more fun as time goes on.

I personally agree with having an enrage timer, I believe some of the bosses timers are too short and lack *other* mechanics to make the fights interesting. But there are a few that do what you suggested above already.

 

They should implement the above suggestions, add time the enrage timer accordingly. It would definitely raise the bar for skill and not just *OMGZ I have gear!!* timers.

 

 

Except good, skilled DPS can and will make up for the shortfalls/mistakes of a tank or healer, but will then just end up failing to the enrage timer because they are putting support of the group ahead of optimal numbers. In other words, DPS contributing to group success can and will lead to the DPS getting blamed for "not doing their job."

 

This I can't agree on, its contradictory, if DPS wasn't doing their job because they were carrying the healer or tank then it's not them who failed, it was the healer or tank and it will be self evident. School up your healer or tank on the fight, be willing to spend a 100k in repairs to teach them, and if they can't get it after that... well it might be time to stick with easier encounters when running with that particular person.

 

Or, you know, you could actually make the encounter the least bit threatening to players to begin with so those 30 seconds would matter.

 

While I will agree that some of the encounters are just a straight gear/dps/healing/tanking check, not all are like that. Take Maelstrom, can't remember his name, but the guy with the optical eye charge... I don't care how good your healer is, if your group messes up in the slightest on the LOS, you'll wipe. I died twice to that stupid eye when LOSing around the box, both times it was a wipe, the next time I knew that my aggro was right behind the tanks and sure as hell paid more attention, didn't die, and we put the boss down. They only hit the enrage timer once one party member was dead and they lost 30-40% of the dps output (there was no in combat rez... damn bug threw me back out to the entrance with a rez debuff.... grrr.....) which to me means a well setup encounter. You shouldn't be able to complete the encounter if one party member dies too early in the fight.

 

Goodie. "Soft enrages."

Too bad the party still isn't actually being threatened.

The healer just can't do the Boris "I AM INVINCIBLE!" anymore...

No idea what you were talking about so I can't respond

 

My responses are in yellow :-)

Edited February 7, 2012 by Ruwe

[Xaearth]

I can sympathize that people on the enrage timer side of things feel in their heart of hearts that is has some greater purpose. The items laid out by Ilintar are certainly prime examples of how it can be interpreted and assuredly those impressions aren't 'wrong' at all, I just don't agree that they are what the timer is actually for. You can find all sorts of ways to justify it but at the core it is nothing more than a timer that goes off at a preset time to punish people for not being fast enough. And that continues to be the crux of the issue for me - all things being equal I don't think punishing the player base for not wanting to min/max is healthy.

 

People don't like the other options that have been presented over and over again by myself, Xaerth and others? Okay, fair enough. But that doesn't mean that you can just ignore them as if they don't exist because you think it makes your argument stronger. The fact is there are a lot of ways to do DPS checks without an enrage timer - tons of them, in fact. They are played out daily in games that aren't SWTOR. You think that doing the DPS check during the encounter is boring but putting a timer on the event (one that a lot posting here never even hit) isn't? That's downright nutty. In most cases you aren't even hitting the mechanic that you are so vehementally defending as 'required'. How does something you aren't tripping make the encounter harder? Answer: it doesn't. But it DOES punish those that don't share your min/max playstyle.

 

On top of that, and my biggest issue with it tbh, is the fact that it discourages reassessing your approach to an encounter until either before the next attempt or after the wipe.

 

It just doesn't make sense to tell your players they can't take up a defensive "holding pattern" (even if it means the boss is regaining health in the meantime) to discuss the best way to adapt to the encounter.

 

If someone wants to throw the "reality" card, it really comes down to an attacker falling back and putting their opponent in a position where they can attack (because I'm not talking about completely neutralizing the boss, just not fullout engaging him) but those attacks can be more easily anticipated and responded to.

 

It's the difference between an encounter encouraging players to point fingers when it comes to accepting failure rather than accepting failure as a group. After all, you can't reassess your group mid-fight, you just don't have the time to get the feedback as to what's going on with each individual player and adapt to your weaknesses, so you make a gut-feeling assumption and tell certain players to quit sucking.

 

On top of that, it's this very nature of the enrage timer (you are being timed) that prevents encounters from pushing players to constantly adapt their strategies mid-encounter.

 

Encounters can't evolve. They phase-shift, but never truly evolve.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Xaearth

[schnopsnosn]

You're so funny, actually thinking Hardmodes are supposed to be "hard" and not the lvl 50 equivalent of their normal 1-49 counterparts.

 

There's a reason for nightmare mode you know...

 

Where did I say they were hard?

We can sleepwalk through them at this point but still it's not there to goof around with 4 DPS...

[Frozenshiva]

mArchangel. please kindly buzz off

 

You're not contributing to this topic at ALL beyond creating it. The point of which was already proved to be wrong. Beyond that all you do is coming and bashing people that don't agree with you. Either add something or leg it.

 

Now to Xaearath.

First off ... your analogy in the last post doesn't fit the current situation. But that's beside the point.

 

Thing is this.. and this is my issue with the situation at hand. For whatever matters we all agree on one thing. We need more mechanics. That is an irrefutable statement. Here is where our opinions actually diverge.

 

The group that is saying mechanics should not be based around enrages.

The group who is saying mechanics should be based around enrages.

 

Neither group is right or wrong for the most part. What makes one of the two issues less likely to be right (we're talking THIS game and NOT others) is:

 

1. The way each class works in this game at the moment.

2. The need of most people to feel BETTER than others.

3. The need for progression.

 

The first one i think has already been made clear by now.Class design. Tanks DPS and Healers all have unlimited resources. The only thing that can give them any trouble in the current format is TIME. A shorter time means spending those resources in a better/right way. Without any form of enrage you lack the threat. This is also probably the main reason for more soft/hard enrages than some other games.(not wow)

 

Which brings us to the second point. Most people in an MMO want to feel good or at least better than others. They don't want to be the worst. You need to give them something to feel proud of. If the encounter can be done by anyone just clicking with their mouse, while using their other hand to eat, while at the same time watch TV and listen to music, we have a problem. The encounters are already dumbed down to a fairly ridiculous degree. There are mechanics both in Flashpoints and in Ops that require a certain,albeit minimal, degree of attention. The design intent IS in fact such that not EVERYONE can beat it. it's not supposed to be a 100% success rate. It only has to be high enough for people to perceive it as generally doable. If a certain threshold is passed, the "I am better than so many" feel disappears. And whether people like it or not, most people play MMOs for the "epeen".

 

And third but not least: Progression.

An MMO has to feel progressive in more ways than just getting better/shinier purples.

You have to feel stronger while time passes. With enrage timers that's a pretty clear cut answer. You got 6 minutes to beat it. With your current gear, you're hitting the enrage timer and die. Next time you get the enrage timer but manage to beat the encounter. Time after that you manage to beat the boss right before/as he enrages. The time after that you beat him x seconds before the enrage timer. And so on and so forth. Your progression is obvious. You know for a fact you have become better both at execution and awareness (reason 2) and you have progressed in terms of gear and encounter performance (reason 3).

 

 

I can understand why some would like the model to be different, but as long as the current MMO mentality persists so will the holy trinity and the enrage mechanic.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Frozenshiva

[IThrowRocks]

 

There are, simply put, two camps:

1) Those who know the mechanic is nothing but a gear check and has nothing to do with skill

2) Those who know the mechanic is nothing but a gear check but don't care because they don't have a problem with it

 

 

 

Because gear is the only factor that goes into this game right? Reaction time and keeping tight rotations play no role in the matter right? Do you just think everyone is a robot that follows all the basic assumptions that they know the best builds and rotations?

 

You aren't an econ major are you?

 

 

There is nothing about the enrage timer that makes the actual fight itself different/challenging. If it brings nothing to the table other than a relatively unforgiving fail condition then it isn't really needed at all. People who already know the fight and execute the same rote steps as they do on the normal one are never going to see it. Those that experiment with rotations, suboptimal group alignments, etc. are going to be harshly punished to make the min/max crew feel good about themselves.

 

 

It does change the encounter. It forces you to deal with mechanics rather than avoid them. A great example as I've said before is the cyborg boss in hard mode Maelstrom prison.

Edited February 7, 2012 by IThrowRocks

[IThrowRocks]

Enrage timers are definitely unoriginal. I will not say lazy due to the amount of work that goes into development of any encounter. I would rather each class be pushed to the limit of all their abilities not just DPS. Crowd control, target prioritization, environmental awareness are just a few mechanics that should be considered, not a 3 minute faceroll that is completely dependent on an upgrade from rating 120 to 124+.

 

Let me use more than :

 

<Begin Loop>

Grav Round x 3

Full Auto

HiB

Grav Round

Charged Bolt

Hammer Shot

Grav Round

Full Auto

[Check Enemy Health]

<EndIf Enemy Dead Else Begin Loop>

 

Many of the hard mode flash bosses have adds that need to be burned or cced. Many bosses also have abilities that need to be disrupted or there is a wipe/dead player.

 

The game already has implemented all the things you just listed. It doesn't use the enrage timer as a crutch. It uses it as a standard.

 

I've said this a million times in this thread and nobody seems to catch on. The enrage timer is not a mechanic. It is a standard that is being set for the dps.

 

Healers need to keep tank up or the encounter will be a failure.

The tank needs to maintain aggro and position boss or the encounter will be a failure.

The dps needs to beat their clock or the encounter will be a failure.

 

If you are going to say enrage timers are bad, then also explain to me how the concepts of an agro table and a boss beating on a tank being bad ideas as well.

 

Use of one or more of the following mechanics can and will test DPS by the very nature of the fact that you can't sit around and rely on the tanks and healers to make sure no one ever dies:

1) Make bosses have less predictable aggro patterns (less easily tanked)

2) Spawn adds that cannot be easily tanked (as a function of damage/armor penetration/lifesteal rather than threat), cannot be mezzed, and near-instantly respawn when killed

3) Spawn adds that cannot be mezzed, and heal the boss with a lifesteal mechanic based on the amount of max health of their target (tanks tanking them = higher heals on the boss)

4) Take people out of the fight unexpectedly for a significant amount of time, either through death or a banish mechanic of some sort

 

So let me understand this correctly. Having a timer that is designed to be beaten if you do the correct actions with the gear and items that you should be entering the encounter with is not acceptable. BUT... creating mechanics that cannot be controlled and are completely random is desireable?

Edited February 7, 2012 by IThrowRocks

[Revanmug]

 

I've suggested mechanics several times that people keep outright refusing to address.

 

Use of one or more of the following mechanics can and will test DPS by the very nature of the fact that you can't sit around and rely on the tanks and healers to make sure no one ever dies:

1) Make bosses have less predictable aggro patterns (less easily tanked)

2) Spawn adds that cannot be easily tanked (as a function of damage/armor penetration/lifesteal rather than threat), cannot be mezzed, and near-instantly respawn when killed

3) Spawn adds that cannot be mezzed, and heal the boss with a lifesteal mechanic based on the amount of max health of their target (tanks tanking them = higher heals on the boss)

4) Take people out of the fight unexpectedly for a significant amount of time, either through death or a banish mechanic of some sort

 

These are only a few examples of mechanics that would require encounters to be completed efficiently and promptly, but, more importantly, also puts a burden in testing the DPS skill in their ability to survive an encounter without relying solely on the healer and tank. In other words, everyone is held responsible for their own survival and the tanks and healers support the innate survival skills of each individual group member.

 

1: The boss target melee dps... melee dps get destroy because he is in melee range and the boss has to hit hard enough to challenge a tank. You cannot reduce the damage outcome because If he doesn't hit hard enough, tank are unnecessary and you bring 3 dps. Or you just ban any kind of melee dps... Nice fix indeed!

 

2: so... adds that are completly ignore since they can't be cc nor kill (they respawn instantly)? More pressure on the healer in other word... Wait, you mean kiting right? Melee exist you know? They can't dps while kiting. Ban them melee... Oh wait I get it, you mean a "tank" spec for kiting since his job for that very fight is picking them up and kite them in a specific path! That fix what? ... Nice fix indeed!

 

3: so, a dps hit the adds a few time, back on boss... *** does that do? more job for the healer?! guess not since the mob only heal. The dps still *********** dps without thinking of anything else. It is actually close to a hard enrage! As soon as the hps outclass your total dps, there is nothing you can do... you wipe.

 

4: YEAH! randomly kill people! good idea! Kill the tank or healer! You know what happen when you design a fight like that? You have to make it not too damage intensive if the healer die.... nor too hard on the dpser since they will have to tank to replace a tank! Well in that case, let's bring another dps! Sounds quite hard! ... Well wait, it's enrage type of thing... Since it is random, let's make sure our entire raid is range so melee don't get destroy instantly when the tank dies. Ban them melee!

 

But in the end... what the hell does those... thing change? Your dps still tunnel dps, your healer still heal but harder and your tank still tank or is replace by a dps. Seriously, that look like the same as with hard enrage.

[Metalmac]

Simple question:

 

Is the Scapper worth taking to a HM fight now or is after the nerf making them worthless?

 

Inotherwords any class except Srapper will be taken.

[Tikume]

I dont think hardmode flashpoints are a problem,

 

 

But still agree that just adding rage timers is lazy, bad and boring way to design content.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Tikume

[Myungbean]

Call it lazy, but you're all suggesting these enrage mechanics that basically would almost undoubtedly wipe the group. In the end, what the hell is the difference? Spawning multiple untankable adds that will kill the healer, pull dps off main target, and destroy the tank? Or simply give the boss a dmg buff, have the tank pop some CDs in a hope to last a few more seconds and give the dps a chance to kill the boss, albeit with a couple deaths? Getting rid of the enrage timer as we know it would change nothing. It would still mean your dps is coming up short and simply needs to learn class mechanics better. As someone said earlier, Tanks need to be able to not get hit like a truck, healers need to be able to heal the tank, and DPS needs to be able to do a certain amount. What everyone seems to want is to give carte blanche to DPS to be lazy and not know how to do their job. And that is what it really is. If tanks don't know how to do their job, group members die. If Healers don't know how to do their job, group members die. If DPS don't know how to do their job, the boss enrages and group members die. Enrage timers are unoriginal, yes, but they're also a much simpler solution to a problem and much less complicated to program than the ideas you're all suggesting that would achieve the same exact thing. Edited February 7, 2012 by Myungbean

[Xaearth]

1: The boss target melee dps... melee dps get destroy because he is in melee range and the boss has to hit hard enough to challenge a tank. You cannot reduce the damage outcome because If he doesn't hit hard enough, tank are unnecessary and you bring 3 dps. Or you just ban any kind of melee dps... Nice fix indeed!

 

Try putting some thought into it.

If the tank's job isn't rofl-easy, the boss doesn't have to 1hit dps. If the melee just sit there and try to block the boss with their face, it's their own fault.

 

2: so... adds that are completly ignore since they can't be cc nor kill (they respawn instantly)? More pressure on the healer in other word... Wait, you mean kiting right? Melee exist you know? They can't dps while kiting. Ban them melee... Oh wait I get it, you mean a "tank" spec for kiting since his job for that very fight is picking them up and kite them in a specific path! That fix what? ... Nice fix indeed!

 

/facepalm

Yeah, adds that spawn to keep the ranged healers and ranged dps from just sitting around playing tiddlywinks is bad for melee dps.

 

After all, sure it makes sense to have a 2nd tank to kite the adds when ranged classes can kite them and still contribute (albeit to a lesser extent that becomes a function of skill) to the boss. Hell, if you made it so mez skills were still usable but only effective as a short duration stun, even good Marksman snipers should have little trouble adapting to a hit and run style.

 

3: so, a dps hit the adds a few time, back on boss... *** does that do? more job for the healer?! guess not since the mob only heal. The dps still *********** dps without thinking of anything else. It is actually close to a hard enrage! As soon as the hps outclass your total dps, there is nothing you can do... you wipe.

 

You're not thinking outside the box.

This is a variation of #2 that, instead of reducing the tank's ability to tank the adds, punishes a group for using a tank spec to even kite the adds. Tanks as a general rule have higher endurance = higher HP than the other roles.

 

Pro-tip: Ranged dps have better (not to mention safer) ways of generating aggro over an area than melee dps...

 

4: YEAH! randomly kill people! good idea! Kill the tank or healer! You know what happen when you design a fight like that? You have to make it not too damage intensive if the healer die.... nor too hard on the dpser since they will have to tank to replace a tank! Well in that case, let's bring another dps! Sounds quite hard! ... Well wait, it's enrage type of thing... Since it is random, let's make sure our entire raid is range so melee don't get destroy instantly when the tank dies. Ban them melee!

 

...

Does the word strategy mean anything to you besides tricking anything more threatening than a bunny rabbit into attacking the brick wall?

 

But in the end... what the hell does those... thing change? Your dps still tunnel dps, your healer still heal but harder and your tank still tank or is replace by a dps. Seriously, that look like the same as with hard enrage.

 

Yeah... it's the same as with a hard enrage when survival and damage both are no longer a straight function of gear and instead are heavily focused on each individual player's skill and adaptability.

 

If you'd read any other posts in this thread, you would've seen the massive number of people frothing at the mouth screaming "MUST CHALLENGE DEEPS" and might understand why all of those examples specifically focus on a need for an encounter to "be completed efficiently and promptly", as stated after those examples.

 

PS: Given enough skill, any of these examples would be doable without a tank or healer. It would be far less efficient, far more time-consuming, and far more difficult, but it could still be done. Considering these examples were specifically designed with the intent to make healing and tanking less reliable, the same could not be said of dps.

 

The general argument against removing Enrage timers is that it leads to all tank and all heal groups = easymode. If easymode cannot reliably complete the content, it removes the threat of easymode. If hardmode can complete the content... Isn't that a win-win?

Edited February 8, 2012 by Xaearth

[Deathnasty]

Enrage means you failed its that simple look at his health left and work out how to get more DPS.

 

Enrage is good it shows that someone is:

 

A: not geared enough

B: Asleep

C: AFK

D:just being a lazy *** and not pulling his/her weight

 

for me enrage timers are fine, ive never seen one apart from the robot in Kraggas palace and the only reason we saw that is cause I FAILED at pressing buttons fast enough. Once i pushed the buttons fast enough we went on and cleared the place.

 

 

TLDR: Enrage timers are there to remind you that you fail HARD

[Frozenshiva]

@Xaearth:

In case your suggestions about removing enrages would actually somehow happen, it would only lead to two things:

1. Even more class stacking than before.

2. For the most part (but not always) ignoring mechanics.

 

And even if these repercutions wouldn't be there,and presumably it would for the most part be the same experience, you're trying to change something that works with something mostly the same thing only that might or might not work.

 

You're like those guys that keep going on how much they hate the pink color, but when people point out they're wearing fuchsia, they say it's not a pink color.

You're welcome to continue this pointless debate.

You know what they say about arguing with ..... and their experience.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Frozenshiva

[sleightly]

Enrage timers are a worthless and lazy way to design content in any game. Either I can kill the mob with my group, or I can't. Why should it matter how long it takes me to accomplish my goal? Dead is dead.

 

I'm from EQ2 and that mechanic, while it does exist on some of the higher end content, is used as an obvious timer mechanic and doesn't just wipe you but starts ramping up the difficulty while leaving you a chance if you start executing well.

 

Enrage timers shouldn't exist in any fashion - they aren't fun, they aren't challenging and they bring nothing to the event. Pure Dev Lazy.

 

This!!!!

[sleightly]

Enrage timers exist so fights can't be solo'd or done with completely terrible players who afk auto attack or push 1 button. Do you really want to see everyone and their mom decked out in the best raid gear possible because you don't need to be good to get it?

 

Following mechanics may still be hard for them but pushing as much damage as possible while still avoiding mechanics is what makes PvE hard and seperates the 'Okay' from the 'Good' players.

 

Loendar is promoting more innovative ways to make things challenging. You are just too short-sighted to understand that.

[Frozenshiva]

Loendar is promoting more innovative ways to make things challenging. You are just too short-sighted to understand that.

 

You say inovative because you probably haven't played in a more "hardcore" environment.

His suggestion would be "nice" but it would also be exploited to the maximum by most guilds and players because it would practically be allowed by the system itself.

[Loendar]

You say inovative because you probably haven't played in a more "hardcore" environment.

His suggestion would be "nice" but it would also be exploited to the maximum by most guilds and players because it would practically be allowed by the system itself.

 

And yet what you are saying will happen doesn't happen in other games that implement what some of us are professing and don't use enrage timers. Your 'horror' stories simply don't hold water in the real world with these real implementations.

 

You can keep speaking in hypotheticals and I'll keep speaking in facts. Yes, they are different games and this one does have a different resource model but if you take that into account at design they will be mitigated.

 

I get it - a lot of you are from WoW or similar games where this mechanic exists in spades and it is all you are used to. Not all of us played in the limited sandbox and are used to better designed/more engaging content and would like it if that were the model followed in this (and preferably other new games - Rift does it just fine as well but their lead Dev is from EQ2). I suggest that you be willing to expand your horizons instead of clinging to this mechanic because you are used to it.

 

Damn - sucked back in again.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Loendar

[Xaearth]

@Xaearth:

In case your suggestions about removing enrages would actually somehow happen, it would only lead to two things:

1. Even more class stacking than before.

2. For the most part (but not always) ignoring mechanics.

 

If they just picked a single one out of the list and slapped it onto an encounter we already have? Sure.

 

But using multiple mechanics in a way that multiple classes would have to take a more active and adaptive playstyle to "guarantee" success would work for the current encounters.

 

That's not to mention the fact that my suggestions are aimed towards future content. I am not under the delusion by any means that the devs will change the current encounters.

 

And even if these repercutions wouldn't be there,and presumably it would for the most part be the same experience, you're trying to change something that works with something mostly the same thing only that might or might not work.

 

You're like those guys that keep going on how much they hate the pink color, but when people point out they're wearing fuchsia, they say it's not a pink color.

You're welcome to continue this pointless debate.

You know what they say about arguing with ..... and their experience.

 

Well hey, leeches work, why bother advancing medicine past the dark ages, amirite?

[Relith]

ya, ive never played an mmo with enrage timer, but my first reaction is "this is some really lame ****"

 

So were my 2nd and 3rd reactions in case anyone wondered. With only 4 classes allowed in a group, there really is no wiggle room on group composition on the tougher timed enrage fights. You either bring 2 dedicated dps to these fight or you won't win. People who are split specs are really of questionable use. That healer/dps split spec guy you know...yeah, he probably can't heal well enough for the long fights, nor can he dps enough to beat the clock. Lets not even get into the fact at how much range dps >melee dps in basically all cases.

 

I've played over a dozen mmorpgs for the last 14 years now, and trust me when I say games have never struggled to find uses for DPS before enrage timers. That said, mobs in those games didnt die in 2 seconds like they do in this game so DPS actually had a chance to stretch their legs. Having good dps could turn a 1 hour dungeon crawl into a 15 minute affair. In this game at least....Having great dps really doesnt speed things up enough for that to be an sizable asset to having them in the group.

 

I suppose its too late to fix the way this game works, just like its too late for them to use a proper game engine. "It is what it is" as "they" say...

[Ruuprect]

Why not just make the first boss in every HM FP have an enrage timer as a gear check, the second boss can have some sick mechanics as a competency check and then the rest is a mix of both.

 

Rift only had a few heroics that had enrage timers and i dont remeber and of them being abused not having them.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Ruuprect

[Loendar]

Why not just make the first boss in every HM FP have an enrage timer as a gear check, the second boss can have some sick mechanics as a competency check and then the rest is a mix of both.

 

Rift only had a few heroics that had enrage timers and i dont remeber and of them being abused not having them.

 

You'll find that the response of 'full group of healers and tanks' gets bandied around a lot as something this timer somehow fixes. In the real world of games that don't rely on that it doesn't happen and they have never seen it happen because the games they play have them - but it won't stop them from saying it.

 

C'est la vie.

[LupinTheGreat]

Lets say there isn't any enrage timer at all

 

You can kill even hardest boss with easy if you can endure fight(which in swtor is easy)

same goes to anything that you can give to make more better way to say "i know this fight"

(runing out of space, too many adds and so on)

 

In the end its not only the timer but entire fight that counts to win.

(if you(dps) die on boss ability = loss of dps/lack understanding of mechanics/not use brains to avoid or useing optimal tactic for your grp.

 

My guild have cleared all normal/hardmodes in FP and OPS and we got almoust full clear on NM and i say enrage timer is good cause without it i can survive almoust anything (can take 2-4 hits from normal/hard mode bosses in enrage) and even if there is some effects that are not

solid enrage timer but its just make things less punishing from failing to avoid/interutp and so on

 

Enrage timer = gear check for every one in grp/understanding the mechanics and use best possible solution to go with them and giving your all to best results

 

Tip:To get gear go with this dailys/normals FP/pvp-->normal ops/HM FP/some easy bosses in HM ops like 4 first in EV-->HM/NM from both OPS

Most of Normals and HM are so easy that i can go with almoust just lvl50 ppls with me to kill ops almoust fully

 

PS. before some "you dont get it" troll starts to defending his way to say im wrong think before post anything. Is there any other way to make fight hard that is not linked to L2P issue/time or gear by any way? if not then all things that make fight hard are Enrage timers

[LupinTheGreat]

and btw do all boss have to be hard or is it only for some most hardest like Soa/4th boss in KP/Bonecrusher. All of thous are easy fights by mechnics and can be done in normal mode with first try with firstimers. HM nots so easy but some bosses like 4th in KP is lame how easy it is on HM then normal by mechanics mine/ random rocket combo instant kill and are total random + req gear and luck to not been hitted by both at same time or in short time that healer cant even heal it

[Skodar]

There's enrage timers?