Gear based PvP is amateur hour

[Bekkrah]

Can we please keep this thread friendly before Bioware closes it? There is no need for personal attacks. I personally don't share the same views as everyone on this thread and there is no need to insult them as a result.

If someone has a different view other than your own and you can't think of a way to respond in a constructive manner then just ignore them I'd say.

This is a good disscussion we have going on here and the Bio boys are just a few minutes away from closing it. Please keep it clean folks.

Edited February 1, 2012 by BeKure

[Aragiel]

MMO's are progression based.

You get people to keep paying a subscription by having them advance their characters through various time sinks.

 

Here is a list of games that you do not pay a subscription fee for, do not have overarching character progression, and have multiplayer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_sports#Major_electronic_sports_games

 

Subscription MMO is not the genre you are looking for.

 

Here we go

A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously.

 

there is nothing that is saying MMO has to be progression based. Just the fact that it is the favorite concept doesnt mean it is the rule of it. and .. there are MMOs breaking this rulez. I actually belive that people should be keep paying subscription by having fun, by having challenge, and by having friends / guilds / and play with them.. There is no connection with gear progresion in my point of view

[Bekkrah]

What defines quality when it comes to games? I mean how good a game is is mostly down to peoples personal opinions.

 

I guess you can just ask a professional video game critic. They are better suited to answer your question. There are tons of them on the web and I'm sure that there is probably a industry standard that they abide by. I hear that IGN is one of the more trusted sources when it comes to critiquing/rating video games.

Edited February 1, 2012 by BeKure

[Meiu]

I know of several "real" PvP'ers that play mmos.

"Fighters", just going to lol on that one.

RTS is as boring as...Ilum.

FPS...yeah, I've won a couple of world tournaments etc, but that doesn't mean I can't play mmos as well. Besides, FPS can get boring after a while as well...taking a break never hurts.

 

That said, Planetside 2 is otw, and if we pray to the almight Lord of the pink butterflies, SOE won't mess it up. I never played Planetside, but the idea is really quite interesting to me. And massive PvP-fights without lag/low fps sounds cool...not like Swtor where 8vs8 is a lagfest with ability lag and low fps and bugs etc.

 

You are going to be upset. Giant Robots always was the dominating force in PS. It will be in PS2. You are only worth anything every couple of hours you are allowed to spawn heavy armor otherwise you get blow up from missile barrages from the horizon. Planetside is biggest vehicle wins, sort of like best gear wins.

[CupieFoxtail]

there is nothing that is saying MMO has to be progression based.

 

I said subscription MMO

People will be willing to pay another 15$ to continue the time sink to get rewards to improve their character.

Loot and character power progression is a big motivator to continue subbing to a game. It may not be what you feel you need, but for you there's always real PvP games or non-subscription MMO's.

[Aragiel]

I said subscription MMO

People will be willing to pay another 15$ to continue the time sink to get rewards to improve their character.

Loot and character power progression is a big motivator to continue subbing to a game. It may not be what you feel you need, but for you there's always real PvP games or non-subscription MMO's.

 

i dont see it differently. It is still just a concept.. gear progression is a concept used in MMO and doesnt matter if is subscription based or for free. Yea you right is a big motivator, but still it doesnt mean thats the only way.. - its just most used concept..

[Rakimou]

I don't know, it never occured to me to look for a progression in PVP. Progression in PVE I can deal with. But in PVP I look for a competition between evenly matched players. That's the whole point, right?

[Jebi]

GW2 will never come close to the amount of people that bought SWTOR. It is because MMOs without gear progression doesn't appeal to a lot of MMO pvpers and pvers.

 

GW2 does have gear and level progression in it's PVE area's, and also in it's WvWvW maps. So if that's your thing, GW2 has it.

 

There are however optional competitive PVP zones where everyone is level 80 with equal gear. This is to separate the WOW and console kiddie generation who have to rely on gear to carry them in PVP.

 

GW2 will also have e-sport. And unlike FPS games that rely pretty much on reflex alone to carry you, there is a lot more complexity and strategy involved here.

 

etc etc etc... google it.

 

But what do we know? It's pretty clear the pro: gear grind crowd in this thread know all about competitive MMO PVP, right? lol.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Jebi

[darthmorbous]

a ranking is a goal to work/play for

titles

credits

unlockable skills

[Bekkrah]

GW2 does have gear and level progression in it's PVE area's, and also in it's WvWvW maps. So if that's your thing, GW2 has it.

 

There are however optional competitive PVP zones where everyone is level 80 with equal gear. This is to separate the WOW and console kiddie generation who have to rely on gear to carry them in PVP.

 

GW2 will also have e-sport. And unlike FPS games that rely pretty much on reflex alone to carry you, there is a lot more complexity and strategy involved here.

 

etc etc etc... google it.

 

But what do we know? It's pretty clear the pro: gear grind crowd in this thread know all about competitive MMO PVP, right? lol.

 

Then it sounds like GW2 is my kinda game! Just tell me where do I sign?

[Tourne]

.People have been wanting a PvP game that was based on their ability, as opposed to what they wear, for years. This is not it.

 

 

PvP'ers (unless you live with Mom) have been looking for this for years. SWTOR is not it.

 

 

You don't speak for mmorpg pvp'ers- just a niche group of mmo/fps/tps pvp'ers wanting no effort involved. PvE/PvP mmorpg's need items as an addiction to leveling- to give a sense of progression and doing something with you character over a long period of time...growing stronger. Without such, you would be the same on day 379 as you had been on day 1...that's not cool for the majority who play mmorpg PvP.

 

You are on equal terms here- BM Sorc versus BM Sorc is as equal as you can ever get. There is virtually no time investment to reach adequate gear to fight- not nearly to the extent that "I"...as a PvP'er have grown accustomed to over the years.

 

There's skill based full loot games- if you are so hardcore then I haven't a clue why you aren't currently enjoying one of those atm...

[Delolith]

I find this thread ironic....GW didn't have proper PvP as the term reflects in an MMORPG game apart from a stupid ladder and several scenarios.

 

The only true MMO PvP game out there is EVE online atm and the new player will never be as good compared to the veteran player with accumulated skills (not player skills but in game skills).

 

I think someone is laughing at you OP....his name is god.

[Sanxxx]

You don't speak for mmorpg pvp'ers- just a niche group of mmo/fps/tps pvp'ers wanting no effort involved. PvE/PvP mmorpg's need items as an addiction to leveling- to give a sense of progression and doing something with you character over a long period of time...growing stronger. Without such, you would be the same on day 379 as you had been on day 1...that's not cool for the majority who play mmorpg PvP.

 

You are on equal terms here- BM Sorc versus BM Sorc is as equal as you can ever get. There is virtually no time investment to reach adequate gear to fight- not nearly to the extent that "I"...as a PvP'er have grown accustomed to over the years.

 

There's skill based full loot games- if you are so hardcore then I haven't a clue why you aren't currently enjoying one of those atm...

 

....what he said.....

 

Why people sign up to an MMORPG and expect something different is beyond me, think I'll have a go at CS and complain that it's not turn based.

[RobNightfall]

I personally would work toward vanity items, experience and in-game currency. I PvP mostly for fun so I would trade the gear grind for a skill based combat system any day of the week.

If gear only accounted for 10% of a players damage output then it would be a non-issue. It would be 90% skill and 10% gear but most MMO developers are silly imo and always go for the 50/50 route.

PvP is suppose to be about player vs player anyhow, not gear vs gear.

 

This.

[brutax]

I will stop minding that equipment has a huge impact on pvp ... the moment I can loot it from fallen enemies. That's what I loved about EVE-Online, sure, you could get a huge advantage by bringing a better ship, but not without putting some skin in the game.

 

But then again I'm probably a bit crazy. So messed up that I don't even remember the part from the movies where they explained how the emperor was nothing without his expertise stacked robes. Or how Yoda told Luke that "Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from his gear. But beware the skill based games, because once you start down that dark path, forever will it dominate your view on gaming!"

[Jestunhi]

.People have been wanting a PvP game that was based on their ability, as opposed to what they wear, for years. This is not it.

 

 

PvP'ers (unless you live with Mom) have been looking for this for years. SWTOR is not it.

 

This was never meant to be it.

 

Not every game which features pvp is a pvp-centric game.

 

Not everything with pvp will be 100% twitch / skill based.

 

And nor should it be.

[Puzzlybox]

The FPS to MMO debate is pretty interesting.

 

CS had a significant skill curve. You had to spend literally years refining your aim/spatial awareness. Typically, someone had to pub for a year or two before they were even ready to start scrimming. They could get fast-tracked into competitive play if they were that talented and/or had a strong team to carry them until they picked it up quicker than a pub in a more conducive environment. A fresh player had absolutely no chance against a player who has played competitively for years, even if you gave that brand new player guns that hit twice as hard and double the HP.

 

Time invested = Advantage gained.

 

If you think of them both in that type of perspective. Functionally, there is little difference between FPS and MMO.

[dannythefool]

daoc had relics which was fun but saying it required lots of skill is a laugh.

 

It's not about requiring skill. It's about not requiring gear. At least not gear that takes unreasonably long to obtain and/or requires activities that aren't exactly PVP.

 

Most MMORPGs don't get this right. It's either some broken expertise-like system or it's overpowered raid gear that pvp players will totally hate to get because they generally aren't that fond of PVE raiding. It's fine for the core audience of PVE players that are just mentally locked into grinding gear and winning based on gear, but it makes any kind of "PVP" activity not very competitive as, until absolutely everybody is geared, you either get an unfair advantage or an unfair disadvantage. Competitive players will feel insulted by the game's apparent need to give them the former, and annoyed by the odds being stacked against them otherwise, both cases leading to their absolute inability to tell whether a fight was won or lost because they finally learned how to play their class or because of gear.

 

Yeah I realize most of you want some sort of reward out of warzones (and that PVP is pretty much warzones in this game is another problem), but I ask why this has to be gear at all? Instead:

- Remove hard-to-get PVP gear

- Give PVE raid gear the same stats as normal level 50 gear plus a PVE-only stat

- PVP rewards should be faction or guild rewards, e.g. capturing a research outpost by winning a certain number of CW warzones could give a crafting critical buff; pure PVP players would be happy to PVP to help out their guildmates who would, in an ideal world, in return supply them with crafted items or credits that they'd actually need (unfortunately, in SWTOR... but that's a whole different story)

 

What we have in SWTOR isn't really a PVP system, it's an extension of the normal PVE grind that forces players to be a ball gagged punching ball for a while in the middle of their pvp career, which is what makes this exceptionally bad. You enjoy PVP until level 49, then comes the punching bag phase, then you may enjoy it again. Why would you even continue with PVP in a system that is designed to take the enjoyment out of PVP for a specific time once you hit 50?

Edited February 1, 2012 by dannythefool

[EternalFinality]

I played Dota for 7 years. Didn't get a single piece of gear out of winning a match. Next match I was back to level 1 with no gear. Kept playing. Was fun the entire time.

 

PvP in MMOs will never work until they release the dependency on "advancement." It's a flawed concept for PvP. It works for PvE, but most developers refuse to segregate the two in the same game.

 

The advancement you get from PvPing is becoming better at PvP, not by having better gear, but by honing your skills and becoming more familiar with the system, the pieces in play, and the counters to them.

 

If PvP is fun when everyone starts the match equal - people will continue to play it with no advancement involved. When advancement become a crutch - a Skinner Box method of conditioning people to continue playing just to become "better" than everyone else, then it has failed.

 

Most MMOs have failed at PvP.

Edited February 1, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Jestunhi]

Some people need to learn that there is more than one sort of pvp.

 

I enjoy competitive / twitch gameplay. I loved Planetside, am eagerly awaiting Planetside 2 and am beta testing the new tribes MMO (although much less now that swtor has been released).

 

However, not all games are like that because not all gamers want that.

 

This game has never been marketed as being skill-based pvp or even a pvp focused game. Making the assumption that in an MMORPG the "correct" pvp system has less / no progression is just foolish.

[warkat]

Because its hard to get rank 60...People are getting Rank 60 in a week in illum especially if you are imperial side...sit in the back spam a buff in an ops raid watch the valor roll in..

[dannythefool]

This game has never been marketed as being skill-based pvp or even a pvp focused game.

 

Oh yes it has. They kept telling us how great PVP would be because they got all the best ideas from Warhammer or something like that (lol?).

 

And I disagree that this kind of progression based PVP is PVP at all. It's just PVE all over again, with some of the players taking on the role of a mob. You're not playing against the other player, you're playing against his gear, so it's not PVP.

[Puzzlybox]

I played Dota for 7 years. Didn't get a single piece of gear out of winning a match. Next match I was back to level 1 with no gear. Kept playing. Was fun the entire time.

 

PvP in MMOs will never work until they release the dependency on "advancement." It's a flawed concept for PvP. It works for PvE, but most developers refuse to segregate the two in the same game.

 

The advancement you get from PvPing is becoming better at PvP, not by having better gear, but by honing your skills and becoming more familiar with the system, the pieces in play, and the counters to them.

 

If PvP is fun when everyone starts the match equal - people will continue to play it with no advancement involved. When advancement become a crutch - a Skinner Box method of conditioning people to continue playing just to become "better" than everyone else, then it has failed.

 

Most MMOs have failed at PvP.

 

DoTA has a tremendous skillcap. There was a sense of advancement and reward in seeing your own progression in your own improved play. I personally loved working on my mid game and seeing that I steadily improved. At first I tried not to feed. Then I tried toget as many creep kills as I could. Next was putting them in a position where they couldn't push up for farm. Then it became keeping them pinned behind tower so I had free control of the runes. Then I started to aggressively go for kills at level 5 (yay nevermore!!!) without mis-reading and feeding a kill. Then I started to combine all of the above and help control side lanes.

 

Typical themepark MMO's don't really have that.

 

Now, it does raise a question. Is the skill curve masked by all the gear progression oriented gameplay? Or is there a high skill ceiling at all?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Puzzlybox

[Halyk]

- Remove hard-to-get PVP gear

- Give PVE raid gear the same stats as normal level 50 gear plus a PVE-only stat

- PVP rewards should be faction or guild rewards, e.g. capturing a research outpost by winning a certain number of CW warzones could give a crafting critical buff; pure PVP players would be happy to PVP to help out their guildmates who would, in an ideal world, in return supply them with crafted items or credits that they'd actually need (unfortunately, in SWTOR... but that's a whole different story)

 

 

Exactly. Some alternative like this would be great. Developers as well as the MMO community itself need to start thinking outside the box. Yes, following the WoW model and what we know is easy and profitable. But guess what, it was ingenuity, and real, serious thought and effort that caused the success of MMOs to begin with. Imagine if developers started making different games...ones with fun, new twists, or exciting ways to approach things. They would be raking in the dough. Its a scary thought...to disrupt the status quo, but in time, if said developer really had a good idea, people would catch on, and start to enjoy it.

 

If people wanted WoW clones, they would be playing WoW. As a business model, wouldn't it be more profitable to have something completely different, something that the customer base didn't have access to, and now you are giving them a whole new lease on life?

 

Assuming that any of the developers actually read the forums (and this post) which is highly unlikely. Be bold, quit doing the same old, safe thing. People dont like change at first, but they'll get over it, and so will you when you develop the next big thing that has millions eating out of your hands.

[SourD]

Player vs Gear is what this game is about.