Tanks: That which will kill SWTOR PVP.

[Pandanks]

How so, I'm just curious, haven't gotten a chance to play since I'm at work.

 

The Operative/Scoundrel patch complete boned them in pve. Were they needing to be nerfed in pvp? One way or another, yes.

 

They were bad in pve before, not they are even worse. Pretty hilarious.

[Pandanks]

Sorry to say that you're wrong.

 

I was a warrior priest. I loved having melee corner me and aoe detaunt them with guard on. I literally would only have to heal the tank.

 

As a DoK, I can confirm this. Unless it was changed after I quit because Mythic finally realized how bad they were at balance, in which case good for them.

[Xilrasis]

As a DoK, I can confirm this. Unless it was changed after I quit because Mythic finally realized how bad they were at balance, in which case good for them.

 

Except you could only single detaunt. Lololol balance.

[Acanti]

The OP isn't saying remove tanks... OF COURSE tanks have a place in PvP.

 

Have any of you gone against a team of competent Tanks and Healers on Voidstar? It's like smashing your head against a brick wall. I could coordinate with other people to kill the healer, or even the tank, but guess what? All they need to do is to survive long enough for that same person you just killed to come out of spawn and start the process all over again. As long as the healer or tank was alive, all they needed to do was interrupt your plants.

 

The OP is simply saying take a look at the ridiculous synergy Tanks + Healers are able to provide for a team. Although I don't encounter this regularly, I can understand how this could be an issue.

[Jooji]

Man, I finally find a game where being a tank in PvP is entertaining cuz it's useful and ppl cry about it. I do so enjoy being FotM.

 

There's a difference between being overpowered and useful. Anyway who's arguing tanks don't need nerfs on their protection abilities is certainly a tank who doesn't want to see his lolezmode medals or infinite survival nerfed.

[Loxion]

Problem:

Tanks.

 

I'm sure all of the tanks in here are going to jump in here and tell me how i'm an idiot, and tanks suck, or tanks don't contribute anything, or that being "hard to kill" and "annoying" is what they're supposed to do.

 

Let me just tell you that its not the class/spec that sucks. Here's a hint (google it if you're not familiar with the acronym): PEBKAC

 

With teams that are 8 players (and lets be honest, much more than this... or maybe more than 12 would make it even less fun for different reasons) in all of the Warzones, tanks are a HUGE problem. Why?

 

Typical WZ Composition: 2 -3 Healers. 2-3 Tanks. 3-4 DPS

 

"But Xil! You havn't told us why tanks are a problem yet!"

 

There are three major reasons: Guard, Taunt, and Durability. A team with two tanks can guard 2 targets simultaneously, and a good tank will switch guard immediately upon a focus swap. With 2-3 healers, these targets are practically unkillable by 4 DPS being rotated through taunts. Whats the other problem? AoE CC. There is SO much AoE cc in this game that if you come anywhere close to killing someone, its just a matter of popping one of your teams choice of 6: AoE fear, flashbang, AoE knockback + root, AoE knockback (the 100 yard variety), or some other of the nearly limitless arsenal of CC in this game. This normally isn't a problem, except for tanks. By the time you recover from CC, taunts are back up -- people are healed to full -- and you start your cycle all over again, except this time without adrenals, relics, etc.

 

The problem is compounded to a level beyond frustrating (and far beyond fun) when you have an abnormally high number of healers and tanks. If you're any class that does weapon damage primarily (snipers, marauders), I seriously feel for you. You are utterly screwed as you watch your abilities bounce harmlessly off of shields and armor.

 

Once a tank and healer are properly geared, they make a near unkillable combination. If you do happen to kill one, good luck killing the other before his buddy is back. It simply isn't happening. Again, with the level of CC in this game combined with the utter unkillability of a well geared tank (And lets face it, some of them do a not-so-shabby level of DPS), it can make the life of this game drain out very quickly.

 

 

DISCLAIMER: THIS ONLY APPLIES TO GOOD TANKS. IF YOU ARE A BAD TANK, PLEASE FIND A GOOD ONE AND REQUEST ADVICE. AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

 

You heard it here first, though. The near indestructability of tanks and their healer buddies in (organized) PVP will utterly destroy this game in the long run.

 

 

I'm sure everyone has had one of "those" warzone matches where both teams have a premade (or two) with good tanks/healers and you literally rack up 400-600-700k damage and 1,000,000+ healing because NOONE can kill ANYONE and you spend the entire time hitting guarded player after guarded player for 100 damage. (This mostly happens in Alderaan).

 

*edit* to make people understand that i'm referring to a group vs group circumstance, not a "me vs the world" circumstance.

 

AND JUST SO EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS IT, THE PRONOUNS "I" AND "ME" IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES REFER TO MY TEAM AS A UNIT, NOT JUST MYSELF. I'M SORRY I DID NOT MAKE THIS CLEAR IN THE BEGINNING. I WILL BE SURE TO EDIT THE ORIGINAL POST TO INCLUDE THIS PRECISE STATEMENT SO PEOPLE STOP THINKING I'M TRYING TO RAMBO SOLO ORGANIZED TEAMS

 

 

Tanks aren't the problem, you not knowing how to deal with them is the problem.

 

Guard can be dealt with easily, knock the tank away from their target, pull the target away from the tank. The same applies to healers.

 

AND JUST SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT, THE PRONOUN "YOU" IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES REFER TO YOUR TEAM AS A UNIT, NOT JUST YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Loxion

[DarthOvertone]

Tanks are OP in PvP. Riiiigggghhhtttt...

 

lulz

[Xilrasis]

Tanks are OP in PvP. Riiiigggghhhtttt...

 

lulz

 

Your signature says it all. Obviously you are someone who is too interested in 1v1 more than actual teamplay to understand where the problem lies.

 

Tanks aren't the problem, you not knowing how to deal with them is the problem.

 

Guard can be dealt with easily, knock the tank away from their target, pull the target away from the tank. The same applies to healers.

 

Same argument, different page. If you really think that pulling/knocking a healer away from their tank is going to drop their guard for any more than .5 seconds, then you either play against some really terrible tanks, or really terrible players in general. Mobility is way too high for most classes when it comes to closing a gap with that large of a margin of error.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Xilrasis

[Loxion]

Your signature says it all. Obviously you are someone who is too interested in 1v1 more than actual teamplay to understand where the problem lies.

 

 

 

Same argument, different page. If you really think that pulling/knocking a healer away from their tank is going to drop their guard for any more than .5 seconds, then you either play against some really terrible tanks, or really terrible players in general. Mobility is way too high for most classes when it comes to closing a gap with that large of a margin of error.

 

I would say quite the opposite, it is your team that is bad because they can't keep them away. Guard only has a 15m range and as the target of the guard is often moving around its actually very easy to break it.

 

My main is a Vanguard, I have my guard broken quite often and I can break the oppositions guard easily. When I break it they never get it back that quickly .... ever. You need a better team who actually knows how to deal with different scenarios.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Loxion

[thrashpower]

Totally agree with op, this is also why arena won't work in this game. Nothing would ever die.

[KurleyKilla]

There is a whole other thread about how the tanking stats on gear really don't have enough of an effect during PVP... And people saying PVP tanks aren't tanky enough.

 

As a lvl 45 vanguard.... I feel decently tanky.. but would rather be indestructable.

[Loxion]

Def / shield stats are as good as useless as only basic skills proc the effects. Under 50 you are really tough, once you hit 50 if will get melted by the geared players until you can get geared up yourself.

 

I guarded a geared player when I started PvP at 50 and I died from the transfered damage before he did lol

[Xilrasis]

Def / shield stats are as good as useless as only basic skills proc the effects. Under 50 you are really tough, once you hit 50 if will get melted by the geared players until you can get geared up yourself.

 

I guarded a geared player when I started PvP at 50 and I died from the transfered damage before he did lol

 

Unless you're a sentinel or a sniper (regarding the shield/def stats), but thats a different problem entirely as well. Also, under 50 and undergeared are both entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

[Dorkfrey]

Unless you're a sentinel or a sniper (regarding the shield/def stats), but thats a different problem entirely as well. Also, under 50 and undergeared are both entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

 

So - what I've read from you being irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Tactics to counter tanks, tactics to counter teamplay, everything YOU as a player Or YOU as a team could do. Anything which says, there's another side to your arguement.

 

Yes - in this scenario, you win the internet.

 

In actual PvP, tanks aren't God Mode, and only introduce an element of strategy to fights that you didn't have in WoW before.

 

But - I'll concede the points you've made, that if you state that EVERY counter and tactic is irrelevant, then yes, you're right. Tanks are clearly God Mode vs idiots.

[Xilrasis]

So - what I've read from you being irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Tactics to counter tanks, tactics to counter teamplay, everything YOU as a player Or YOU as a team could do. Anything which says, there's another side to your arguement.

 

Yes - in this scenario, you win the internet.

 

In actual PvP, tanks aren't God Mode, and only introduce an element of strategy to fights that you didn't have in WoW before.

 

But - I'll concede the points you've made, that if you state that EVERY counter and tactic is irrelevant, then yes, you're right. Tanks are clearly God Mode vs idiots.

 

There has still yet to be a "Tactic" posted here that adequately provides a way to reliably separate a guarded target from their tank for any reasonable period of time. Pretty much every one requires the tank and/or target to be braindead and not actually react to the action taken.

 

I sure havn't found one.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Xilrasis

[Aikagi]

Nerf the only thing that tanks are any good at in PvP, great..

 

The only issue really is that dps spec tank classes can use them, making going tank spec rather pointless in PvP thanks to mitigation issues.

[bakedpotter]

So what you're saying is. You alone, are fighting a group of 2 tanks, 4 healers, and an undetermined amount of DPS classes.

 

They are using CC, but you're not.

 

They are using their class abilities, but you're not.

 

You make it sound like you're trying to emulate a pve encounter during PvP rather than focusing the more deadly of targets.

 

So... it must be OP?

 

Let me tell you how this OP tank does in PvP...

 

Civil War, I stand at a point. No one comes to attack that point and I get 3 medals for objective / defender. OR, we get crushed and I end up trying to get everyone to rally instead of running in one at a time.

 

Huttball (most common) I get to guard one player and hope they don't get pulled, pushed, or the ball. If they get the ball... Then I die quickly with everyone focusing on me instead of him to get my guard and taunts down.

 

If I get the ball, I walk across the map for 12 seconds before getting killed.

 

Seems like your issue is with premades vs. a pub moreso than the tank class.

 

I hate to agree with crybabies but the OP did say no baddies were allowed to post in the thread.

[NrOneHero]

Classic example of "I have an oppinion, therefor I must be right!". You ARE aware of that just because you have a oppinion of something, it doesnt automatically make that oppinion a fact right?! Get over yourself. Edited January 31, 2012 by NrOneHero

[daays]

You're overrating the effectivness of tanks.

 

Just how people overrated the burst from Operative/Scoundral

 

What you're complaining about the ease of being able to be effective. Operative/Scoundral

damage was fine. Any class could 1v1 an Operative/Scoundral, you just had to know how to properly play the fight. Close fights down to the wire? Absolutely. Broken damage output? Not really.

 

That's for a 1v1 setting though. Then you add in a group setting and to be honest Operative/Scoundral damage is largely useless UNLESS you're focusing healers because of all the teamwork and CC you can pull off (Resolve meter in this game needs to proc 1 tick earlier).

 

Preventing damage is easy. You guard and stick near someone and they become harder to kill. But it's not broken in any way.

 

AoE is what kills guard. Doing as much damage to the tank/healer/DPS and forcing them to choose which one to heal, while tossing out interrupts will end the game. But currently that's not the meta game of SWTOR. Everyone is focused on

 

"*** IM STUNNED AND SINGLE-TARGET DPS'D DOWN!! NERF NOW!!"

 

If tanks become a problem people will simply bring more AoE. AoE destroys guarded targets. Tanks go down extremely fast with 1-2 single-target DPS on the guarded player and 1-2 AoE'rs. Toss out interrupts/stuns/knockbacks to healers and tanks are easy to kill.

 

The problem is it is extremely easy for a tank/healer/2 DPS premade to pub stomp all day and never lose. But it hardly qualifies as being broken. There are counters. Just not availble to uncoordinated PUBs who don't know how to focus targets and interrupt.

Edited January 31, 2012 by daays

[Dria]

Problem: Tanks.

 

Stopped reading there first.. made a facepalm but kept reading..

 

"But Xil! You havn't told us why tanks are a problem yet!"

 

I am not sure do I:

• Care?
  
• Want to know?
  
• Think that tanks will be the R.I.P sign to Swtor PvP
  

 

DISCLAIMER: THIS ONLY APPLIES TO GOOD TANKS. IF YOU ARE A BAD TANK, PLEASE FIND A GOOD ONE AND REQUEST ADVICE. AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

 

Ah caps - you mad?

 

AND JUST SO EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS IT, THE PRONOUNS "I" AND "ME" IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES REFER TO MY TEAM AS A UNIT, NOT JUST MYSELF. I'M SORRY I DID NOT MAKE THIS CLEAR IN THE BEGINNING. I WILL BE SURE TO EDIT THE ORIGINAL POST TO INCLUDE THIS PRECISE STATEMENT SO PEOPLE STOP THINKING I'M TRYING TO RAMBO SOLO ORGANIZED TEAMS

 

Red caps - you really really really mad? like him [

] ??

[Mazikeen]

With teams that are 8 players (and lets be honest, much more than this... or maybe more than 12 would make it even less fun for different reasons) in all of the Warzones, tanks are a HUGE problem. Why?

 

Typical WZ Composition: 2 -3 Healers. 2-3 Tanks. 3-4 DPS

 

"But Xil! You havn't told us why tanks are a problem yet!"

 

There are three major reasons: Guard, Taunt, and Durability. A team with two tanks can guard 2 targets simultaneously, and a good tank will switch guard immediately upon a focus swap

 

This right here tells me your entire rant is based on the performance of a good group of players acting as a unit

 

News Flash: the side that cooperates the most will generally win

 

It has little to nothing to do with tanks

[neocoma]

tanks are the only good thing in TOR pvp atm.

[Xilrasis]

I love how response after response, page after page of replies is "lol u got outpl4y3d" and "they clearly cooperated more" -- Seriously, what part of "Not a single person on either team is able to kill eachother [except maybe the random pugs who wander off]" is so difficult to understand?

[daays]

I love how response after response, page after page of replies is "lol u got outpl4y3d" and "they clearly cooperated more" -- Seriously, what part of "Not a single person on either team is able to kill eachother [except maybe the random pugs who wander off]" is so difficult to understand?

 

Because it's not true.

 

Tanks don't mitigate guard damage. They receive the damage taken from the person they're guarding.

 

So if they're guarding a healer and you have 1 DPS focus the healer and 1 DPS aoe the healer and tank, the tank will go down extremely fast. Add in interrupts to the healer and it's very easy to work around guard.

 

But that requires you to coordinate interrupts and damage on two targets, which is something PUGs cannot do. Play any organized group and it goes like this;

 

-focus healer

-aoe tank/healer

-interrupt healer

-stun/toss healer, finish tank sitting at 20%

 

Will take PUGs at least 6 months to figure this out

Edited January 31, 2012 by daays

[RealAeiouy]

I love how response after response, page after page of replies is "lol u got outpl4y3d" and "they clearly cooperated more" -- Seriously, what part of "Not a single person on either team is able to kill eachother [except maybe the random pugs who wander off]" is so difficult to understand?

 

Where are the Warzone screenshots showing no deaths?

 

Haven't seem them, seems trivial to share with everyone. Else it is just a matter of being outplayed. The op does not even properly understand the mechanic he is complaining about so some of us are skeptical he is part of some sort of elite premade.

 

Someone else said make a video, and I agree. In the meantime post up the screenshots of people doing 100s of thousand of damage and no kills for either side. Print screen has got to be easy for a an elite pvper. Just post it up on tinypic or some other pic site and link to it here.

 

I regularly take shots of my pvp scoreboards regardless. I am sure this info can be posted quickly. I am intrigued to see four million damage and no kills.