THE TRUTH: Expertise - Overrated Most Useless Stat

[origional]

You can post all the numbers you want and make all the claims you want - and just why are americans obsessed with stats anyway??? as the saying goes the proof is in the eating and anyone who plays this game can see that those with gear that carries expertise ratings are significantly better off than those who dont. The is more of an inbalance between a level 50 in standard gear and a level 50 in pvp gear than there is between an level 10 and level 49 in standard gear.

 

People are saying the same thing day in day out since the 2nd or 3rd week of play yet people like the op think they know better.

[MadMossy]

Guy in my guild worked it all out, obviously it is theory crafting at the moment because we have no combat log to get precise figures from, but if you stack expertise to around 250-300 and then use PVE gear you would be slightly better off than someone in full PVP gear,

 

He worked it out that at 700 Expertise (PVP Gear) vs 0 Expertise (PVE Gear) the PVP user would hit harder and be able to take 21 hits before death (Based on Impale for Jugg) the PVE user would hit for less but be able to take 24 hits before death.

 

Basically they are about equal in terms of damage done/damage taken, the big difference and the one class that cannot get away from using PVP/PVE gear are healers due to the 30% healing penalty in PVP. In this case PVP Gear > PVE Gear in a big way.

[Raja_Asenn]

You can post all the numbers you want and make all the claims you want - and just why are americans obsessed with stats anyway???

 

OP: Spectrographic analysis reveals that the moon is composed mostly of oxygen, silicon, magnesium, iron, calcium, and aluminum.

 

COMMENTER: As any fool can see, the moon is yellowish and sometimes wedge-shaped, therefore it must be made of cheese. Americans!

 

GALLERY: /stare

Edited January 31, 2012 by Raja_Asenn

[davetrump]

OP: Spectrographic analysis reveals that the moon is composed mostly of oxygen, silicon, magnesium, iron, calcium, and aluminum.

 

COMMENTER: As any fool can see, the moon is yellowish and sometimes wedge-shaped, therefore it must be made of cheese. Americans!

 

GALLERY: /stare

 

Quite a win filled post good sir!

[Soonerjohn]

I use a mix of gear as well.

 

Another hidden truth is that certain classes have a huge advantage with their pve set bonuses in pvp.

 

For example, the BH/Commando 2 piece pve bonuse adds 15% crit to their spam attacks, grav round/tracer missile.

 

Compare this to a jugg/guardians whose 2 piece removes 5 seconds off of 1 minute cooldown rage building ability.

 

Clearly it is much more beneficial for BH/Commandos to use their 2 piece.

[Payneintherear]

Logic would dictate that the OP is completely wrong, as he's only accounting for diminishing returns based on his own Expertise stat (and the values on his paper doll) without taking into account the opponent's Expertise rating, which counters another's directly.

 

The more Expertise your opponent has, the more important it is to have a maximum of Expertise in order to stay in the "sweet spot" against as many players as possible, even if that means you will be slightly worse off against opponents, who have no expertise at all, as they pose little challenge to begin with.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Payneintherear

[dcgregorya]

What people *see* in game is that BM geared players have 30%+ more HP and damage than a blue geared 50 and *assume* they're getting owned by expertise. Reality is, the purple 50's (tionese->rakata and centurion->BM) are just MUCH MUCH better than a blue geared 50.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the difference power-wise between a level 49 and a level 11 in the lowbie bracket is *less* than the difference power-wise between a full purple 50 with set bonuses and an ungeared 50. And that's not because of expertise, expertise is just to make it so that you're not required to run any hardmodes or nightmare modes or 16 man ops to compete in PVP.

Edited January 31, 2012 by dcgregorya

[dannythefool]

The main problem with "expertise" that I see isn't expertise itself, it's precisely what OP writes: To compete with the PVP gear without being a punching bag for a few weeks after you reach 50, you have to do PVE. It's entirely possible, which is what makes this so bad: If I want to PVP I don't want to be forced to PVE to become competitive again after I was very competitive for 49 levels.

[Tacopx]

At 346 Expertise (Battlemaster Ear/Implants, 1 Champion Relic, 1 Champion Belt, 2 BM Sabers)

 

I have 8% PvP Bonus. 728-881

 

At 636 Expertise, The PvP Bonus is only 11.8%. Dmg decreases to 688-841.

 

3.8% boost for ~300 Expertise?

 

Assuming you haven't already factored the 3.8% boost in.

 

103.8% of 688-841 is 714-873, lower then your mixed stats but you also take 3.8% less damage. This might not make up for the end loss but I would wager it is pretty close. It becomes even closer when you factor in incoming heals. (Better to take less damage then have a higher health pool when you are getting heals)

 

Having said that it might need a very slight adjustment to make up for the HP difference. A bigger reason to use the PVE gear would be the set bonuses. Merc and OP get 15% crit chance increase on their main abilities? I would love to have that for Force Lightning or Lightning Strike on Sorc.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Tacopx

[Incomprehensible]

The is more of an inbalance between a level 50 in standard gear and a level 50 in pvp gear than there is between an level 10 and level 49 in standard gear.

 

 

We do people keep saying this? It's like they get to 50 and suddenly this magical gate opens up and allows them to PVP and build up expertise gear...

 

From everything I've seen DR means you will not get too far over 11% pvp bonus...

 

You can have over 3% at level 41.

 

You can have right around 4% at level 45.

 

At 50 with the commendations you saved up for your initial gear buy I'd be suprised to find that you were not at at least 8%, which seems to be the sweet spot anyway.

 

But everyone complains about the expertise on the BM gear.... You know, it is still high stat purple gear. Why is so much of that hate focused on expertise?

 

Why do people treat expertise as a level 50 stat that magically appears on BM gear only?

 

You want expertise when you hit 50, have some.

[Sheneria]

OP speaks the true

 

battlemaster gear should be atleast on columni gear level statswise.

 

when i compare my bm forcemaster headgear to my columni one, you have a +20 stats dif. in willpower and like 7 from endurance, thats just wrong as its T3 (bm)vs T2 (columni) gear.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Sheneria

[Rezenith]

Yes, what people fail to realise is that the bolster system is obsolete once you hit 50. Because the gear that you wear will be added onto the stats that you are fighting people with.

 

For example at levels 1-48, their gear makes no difference because the stats they are fighting with are lower than a 49, and thus get bolstered, rendering their gear negligible. However at 50, the gear stats people wear go well above the base bolster stats and it adds on.

 

Therefore, it isn't expertise truly at work here. But as with all games - gear. Regardless if it's PvP or PvE. Obviously if you're in Corellia lv.49 blue mods, you're going to lose anyone in any PvP gear because they're in 51 purple or 56 purple mods.

 

Point is Expertise is technically overrated.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Rezenith

[Hypernetic]

I approve of this thread, more people should wear PVE gear in PVP.... *snicker*

[Rezenith]

^ Typical newb.

[psysention]

lol

bioware and DR

 

hahahah

 

zuhauaha

 

expertise ownz

 

i have 700 expertise and i pvp 4v1 agaisnt pve geared players

[Superawesomerman]

The steep dr on expertise has to do with the damage reduction portion.

 

100% to 99% is less valuable than 90 to 89.

 

someone will have to math it to figure out the actual benefits better, though

[Monterone]

Background: I am a Valor 62 Battlemaster Marauder without exploiting any of the Ilum valor farming but from grinding it out - not so fun with all the CC, when I got none, but that's besides the point.

 

Those who don't bother reading, or act smart with 'Expertise is the best stat, l2p'. Don't bother posting, 500k Dmg Huttball, 800k Voidstar and will 1v1 whoever anyday & probably trounce you. But that's all talk, no substance to it unless you're on Darth Malak, so skip the inane stuff and don't post. Oh and tbh probably shouldn't really care.. there's not much else left to do.

 

Full Champion Expertise - 550~

With Relics - 650~

PvP Boost - 11-12%

 

PvE Gear - 1677 Str 1552 End 84% Crit Multi 29% Crit Chance 734-884 Dmg 18020 HP

PvP Gear - 1408 Str 1298 End 81% Crit Multi 26% Crit Chance 688-841 Dmg 15680 HP

 

A person in full PvE would definitely be slightly weaker than someone in full PvP, but that's only slightly because of the 200-300 stat boost and greatly boosted HP.

 

However the fact is that Expertise has a huge amount of DR. Therefore ideally someone would want a mix and match of PvE and PvP pieces because of the huge stat boost in PvE gains.

 

At 346 Expertise (Battlemaster Ear/Implants, 1 Champion Relic, 1 Champion Belt, 2 BM Sabers)

 

I have 8% PvP Bonus. 728-881

 

At 636 Expertise, The PvP Bonus is only 11.8%. Dmg decreases to 688-841.

 

3.8% boost for ~300 Expertise?

 

I enjoy PvP but this is certainly underwhelming, at this rate I find that BM armor is not worth getting at all. I have done some very mild testing and I hit much harder in mix and match versus another player and higher damage output on scoreboard - no healers same people in the same match of Huttball (that's how it works when you play matches consecutively, groups the same people usually).

 

In my view a PvP geared player, especially a Battlemaster should be above someone in PvE gear when fighting against each other. Because both grinded out their gear in their respective fields.

 

But no, someone in Rakata and a few pieces of Champion in their relic slots / accessories would out damage, out stat, and have higher HP than someone in full Battlemaster.

 

TLDR; Full Battlemaster loses out to Full Rakata with some Expertise / PvP gear.

 

I agree with you OP. The more Battlemaster gear I have and the higher Expertise I get, I just feel like I'm performing worse and worse in warzones.

 

I am now wearing 8 pieces of BM gear and the rest is Champ.

 

I was performing the best and felt the strongest in warzones when I was wearing a combination of Rakata gear and Champion gear, before I replaced the Rakata with Battlemaster. I was running at about ~350 expertise then but the stats from the Rakata gear gave me much more stats wise, than the Expertise boost Battlemaster now gives me.

 

Sure, I now have 12% expertise, compared to about 8% with some Rakata gear, but is that extra 4% really that useful, compared to losing some 2.5k health, as well as taking a massive loss to other stats.

 

It's hard to tell without combat logs and being able to run some math effectively, but for a Sorcerer I definitely feel like I'm getting weaker the more BM gear I acquire.

 

Is it just my perception, or are others seeing this as well?

Edited January 31, 2012 by Monterone

[Hypernetic]

^ Typical newb.

 

Who? That guy who says a stat is useless and overrated and then writes an essay about how you should have 8% of it? derp.

[McVade]

You aren't even factoring in that Expertise swings both ways. You deal 10% more damage and take 10% less. I would destroy *any* person on my server who thinks they can beat me in their 0 Expertise Rakata gear. lol Edited January 31, 2012 by McVade

[Astarica]

Are people aware that the only difference in PvP and PvE gear of the same tier is the base endurance/primary stat? They've identical everything else, and primary stats accounts for a minuscule amount of crit so you might as well count it as 0%.

 

If you think +10 endurance +20ish primary stats outweights 50 Expertise (1% bonus damage/damage reduction/heals) you're free to try that.

[Sithtraller]

Thats exactly what im thinking too, they simply need to reduce the dr of exp a bit...

 

1)BUT NOT TOO MUCh because it also boosts HEALING (i heal myself), heal is compared to dmg like a little bit too weak so with full bm gear having 15% bonus would be nice somewhat.

 

2) But we have to keep in mind with 1.2 comes Rated warzones and probably new gear, so i dont know how this gear will be made up statswhise ... as healer exp is still very nice, as dd i probably would gogo 3 pvp 2 pve pieces or so stat an setboni whise

[dexvx]

The steep dr on expertise has to do with the damage reduction portion.

 

100% to 99% is less valuable than 90 to 89.

 

someone will have to math it to figure out the actual benefits better, though

 

That's true. Someone needs to work out the raw math on expertise DR though, to actually tell if it's bad. If expertise were made linear, then it would be flat out overpowered. Example:

 

100 damage per second

You have 1000 HP

 

0% DR = 10s to live (base line)

10% DR = 11.1s to live (+11%)

20% DR = 12.5s to live (+25%)

30% DR = 14.3s to live (+43%)

40% DR = 16.7s to live (+67%)

50% DR = 20.0s to live (+100%)

60% DR = 25.0s to live (+150%)

70% DR = 33.3s to live (+233%)

80% DR = 50.0s to live (+400%)

90% DR = 100.0s to live (+900%)

95% DR = 200.0s to live (+1900%)

98% DR = 500.0s to live (+4900%)

99% DR = 1000.0s to live (+9900%)

 

Expertise SHOULD NOT BE LINEAR. Each % DR is worth more than the previous. The most exaggerate circumstance would be if you went from 98% DR to 99% DR. Even though you "only" gain 1% DR, you literally DOUBLE your effective HP. So if (fictionally) getting to 98% DR took 1000 expertise, than getting to 99% DR should take 2000 expertise, to be fair.

 

This was a problem WoW Cataclysm had early on, where Resilience was linear. Each point of resilience was exponentially more valuable as you stacked it. This was also a problem with WoW TBC armor penetration, which had the same effect.

 

So to the OP: No, expertise is not broken (in the sense that it should be linear). However, someone needs to do more math to figure out if it's worth it.

Edited February 1, 2012 by dexvx

[Speral]

Spot on OP.

 

Either Expertise needs to be changed to the likes of resilience.. 600~ expertise = 30% reduced damage taken.

Or Expertise needs to scale better.

 

Either way people that want to PvP and get BM gear, shouldn't have to get PvE gear, Rakata or Columi even, to just beat full BM people by a landslide due to the way this is scaling.

[Kitsummerisle]

SO let me get this straight, I need to obtain a full set of BM. Then I need to obtain a fullset of PvE equiv, strip the mods out of the PvE gear and put into my PvP gear so I have the same expertise, but my stats are way higher?

 

This makes me want to unsub, I don't want to PvE to PvP. I just like to PvP

[Taramriel]

Dear OP,

 

Thank you very much for the post. I have been waiting for a good quality post like this for a while now. Good discussion going on too generally.

 

But OP, to confirm, should I get 8-9% expertise (using all of the left side slots) and then just wear Columni BODY pieces?

 

Many thanks