No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[ZDProletariat]

EDIT: And in said community there still may be people who disagree with the community's decision on what's right or wrong.

 

No offense, but the little edit at the end is the only relevant thing you said. You may think it's right to need on an item you don't need, but the society you are playing in doesn't, which makes it wrong. You are being immoral by doing so, and most likely will be punished. Have fun trying to be amoral in a game based on human interaction.

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

(Now Edited to address responses. See below about the refrain of 'you need to make loot rules clear before you start.'

 

Changed title in response to the variations of this:

 

 

The trouble there is confusing 'can' - which is determined solely by you - and 'may,' which takes others into account. The difference is the whole reason for this thread, and the title was accurate, but since it seems easily misunderstood, I've changed it.

 

 

Original post:

I can't believe I'm posting about item rolls, usually not a big concern for me. But poor claims hurt group dynamics, and there's no need for this kind of thing.

 

Today, a Sith Marauder rolled Need to get this

Cademimu Sharpshooter's Jacket

+34 Endurance

+38 Cunning

+18 Critical Rating

 

when I pointed out it was made for an Agent, like me, he said he intended to strip out the mods and trade them.

 

When I noted that the mods are Bound, he insisted that since he could wear it, he could roll. More surprising was that when he brought the issue to /General, a few voices agreed.

 

Most did not, but the others need to know that sort of claim is a party-breaker. This is clearly an Agent item - a huge upgrade in my case - and my next group will get a little less healing as a result.

 

One of the pleasures of running Flashpoints is the chance to get gear suited to you. If it's better suited to someone else, leave it for them.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Responses to the Peanut Gallery

 

 

That approach hurts your whole team, including you.

If I think that way, too, each FP run will improve our stats only half as often. I'll end up with your Marauder item and you with the Agent jacket as often as the other way, and we'll be no stronger for it.

If the rest of the team responds that way, your odds of bettering your abilities drop to a quarter. Grabbing 'because I can' is a losing standard.

 

 

It's definitely best to run with friends. Like a lot of players, I find I need to reach out further for some missions, and that usually turns out well, in part because our community expects players to be considerate of their teammates.

 

 

 

 

It's not your fault when someone acts like a jerk, even if you didn't give them guidelines ahead of time.

 

Clarifying loot rules may be a wise practice (on p. 71, Caille recommends a 'loot macro'). But not doing so doesn't make poor behavior your fault. And a loot-jerk won't be banned or punished by Bioware.

 

The kind of person who would take such a thing (really: a Cunning item, for a Marauder?) would need such detailed loot rules (Can you roll on item that increases secondary but not primary stats? Vice-versa? An item you already have but with mods you want?) that you'll never address them all. If you find discussing loot rules works for you, great, but don't ignore the value of community expectations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My hope? A class-based rolling system would be nice (and, if an option, hugely popular), but introducing it takes more developer time than the ability to trade a BoP item within a team for a limited period. That option that won't deter the defiantly selfish but would help in many other cases.

 

Until then, here's to a community that follows Wheaton's Law. Interpretations will differ, but it surely has something to do with respecting others, beyond 'you look after your interests and I'll look after mine.'

 

 

SWTOR is just a game, but I believe in the social value of gaming, and if you play in such a way that people were glad to have spent time with you, you're doing something right... whatever you did or did not discuss in advance.

 

First of all, CBGB sucked as a venue and that's why it's a distant memory. The only reason why it was ever famous was because of the Ramones.

 

Second, it's a video game with freedom of choice. If I want to roll N/G/D I can do whatever I want. You, and your orchestra of miniature violin players aren't going to stop me. What's even more depressing is that you feel it's your right to stop others.

 

Is it ethical? Not really. If you're so butthurt about it, then simply do not group with those individuals again. Additionally, playing in a guild or group of trusted players would alleviate most of the issues you're having.

 

I'm not sure what you don't get about players rolling need on items they want to sell/trade/strip/companion ninja etc. It seems to me like you're either naive about human nature, or simply chapped that you didn't win the roll. I don't agree with it either but I'm not going to sing some self-righteous ballad about it not being the right thing to do and go on some ill-advised forum manifesto about proper looting etiquette.

 

Sounds to me like you either need to lighten up, or L2Friend a little better. We're not talking about world drops or game changing items here bro. You are, after all, playing a video game. Say it once with me, the items are NOT real. There, I knew you could.

[Ethern]

I don't see any problem to roll on the loot belonging to another class, as long as it was made clear previously and that the team agreed.

[ispanolfw]

No offense, but the little edit at the end is the only relevant thing you said. You may think it's right to need on an item you don't need, but the society you are playing in doesn't, which makes it wrong. You are being immoral by doing so, and most likely will be punished. Have fun trying to be amoral in a game based on human interaction.

 

Oi, this all over again. I've already stated my views and how I treat rolls is much different than the current system, which is agnostic to your morals. And i've never once been booted from a group, not once been called a ninja. But that's the thing, even though I don't roll need on everything, in fact nothing so far, I can still see the system is one of fairness.

 

And you said no offense, but then say something that can easily be construed as offensive not a line or two later. And here's the thing, the society may determine what morals are, but they do not determine what one needs or wants. Yes, wants, in this game nothing is a true need since you can live fine without it for any amount of time. So I'll go get punished now... wait no I wont.

 

And lastly, you may want to learn the differences between moral, amoral and immoral. I have my own morals thank you. Like trying to own an idea is wrong, you may not think so, but I sure do.

[Loendar]

Yet another "my opinion is right, yours is wrong" person. Orange gear is most certainly for looks customization. They could have just had an odd mod slot here and here and there and had no oranges whatsoever for looks customization.

 

Just because you don't understand the system is no reason to make incorrect statements like you have.

 

It is a fact - it is the only gear that is currently fully mod-able to end-game. It isn't a 'guess' or 'opinion'. There is no right or wrong.

 

Anyone that can say that orange gear is purely for looks is playing a different game.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Loendar

[ColonelKer-Nal]

Then you will not get very far with groups my friend, and this game will be a very poor, lonely experience for you.

 

Oh like THAT is a real threat in this solo "MMO"

[ispanolfw]

Just because you don't understand the system is no reason to make incorrect statements like you have.

 

It is a fact - it is the only gear that is currently fully mod-able to end-game. It isn't a 'guess' or 'opinion'. There is no right or wrong.

 

Anyone that can say that orange gear is purely for looks is playing a different game.

 

And, it's also for looks customization. It's not one thing and nothing else. It's in no way the same as the system Aion and now WoW use, but it is most certainly for looks customization.

[ColonelKer-Nal]

The problem here is that there is a choice at all.

 

Need/Greed needs to be removed from player choice. This eliminates issues like the one under discussion, and all the associated drama with said issues.

 

Have a simple percentile roll (1-100), if any of the "parts" are better than any of your parts add 25 to the roll. If the gear is better than something your companion is wearing, even by 1 point, add 50 to the roll. If the gear is better than what you're wearing, even by one point, add 100 to the roll.

 

High roll wins the gear.

 

There is absolutely ZERO need for player interaction on this.

 

Y'know there is a simple solution to this that eliminates all the drama and QQing.

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

Y'know there is a simple solution to this that eliminates all the drama and QQing.

 

Lol, your solution is laughable. Nothing would stop players from equipping a low piece of gear to win the roll. Next?

[Loendar]

And, it's also for looks customization. It's not one thing and nothing else. It's in no way the same as the system Aion and now WoW use, but it is most certainly for looks customization.

 

The ONLY reason that orange gear is on the social vendors is because they didn't think far enough ahead to make an appearance tab to dump it in. So they lumped it together with the custom gear (y'know - what it is labeled as on the GTN and NOT appearance/dress-up/social) so that you could wear pretty things and still make it remotely viable through mods (assuming you wear light).

 

This thread has a lot of gray area that you can debate. But stating that orange gear is for looks customization is out right wrong. Not a little wrong - completely wrong.

[dcgregorya]

Say it once with me, the items are NOT real. There, I knew you could.

 

When someone changes lanes from behind me to pass in front of me without a blinker then sharply slows down to make a right turn, it doesn't cause me to have a car accident. That doesn't mean I don't think they're an ******e. And if there was a forum where I could rage to people about using blinkers and not being ****heads I would probably vent there once in a while .

 

Anyway, sure you can hit need on every roll. That makes you a bad person. I don't care if it is real gear or fake gear or whatever, it's you exercising your ability to be an ******e because I can't punch you in the face for doing it and that to me makes you a coward and a jackarse.

[ispanolfw]

The ONLY reason that orange gear is on the social vendors is because they didn't think far enough ahead to make an appearance tab to dump it in. So they lumped it together with the custom gear (y'know - what it is labeled as on the GTN and NOT appearance/dress-up/social) so that you could wear pretty things and still make it remotely viable through mods (assuming you wear light).

 

This thread has a lot of gray area that you can debate. But stating that orange gear is for looks customization is out right wrong. Not a little wrong - completely wrong.

 

Then unfortunately for you, they are being used that way. So I apologize if I take your so called "rightness" with a grain of salt.

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

When someone changes lanes from behind me to pass in front of me without a blinker then sharply slows down to make a right turn, it doesn't cause me to have a car accident. That doesn't mean I don't think they're an ******e. And if there was a forum where I could rage to people about using blinkers and not being ****heads I would probably vent there once in a while .

 

Anyway, sure you can hit need on every roll. That makes you a bad person. I don't care if it is real gear or fake gear or whatever, it's you exercising your ability to be an ******e because I can't punch you in the face for doing it and that to me makes you a coward and a jackarse.

 

I think you're missing my point. It matters not, what an individual thinks about or even feels while rolling n/g/d on an item. That's irrelevant. It also doesn't matter whether or not you find it unacceptable. That's subjective. I even find it annoying, but that's not the point. None care about my feelings.

 

The point is, that an individual can do whatever they please because they want to. It's not my right to judge them from some standpoint of self righteousness. This has nothing to do with real life analogies, it's a video game. Again, the items are not real. No need to get so worked up about a piece of poorly textured digital gear, bro.

 

Besides, what if one is role playing a Sith? I'd expect a need on every roll, it's not within my right to affect his/her immersion.

[Sai-to]

 

This thread has a lot of gray area that you can debate. But stating that orange gear is for looks customization is out right wrong. Not a little wrong - completely wrong.

 

 

Actually, that's exactly what it is. Orange gear is BW's version of an Appearance tab.

[dcgregorya]

None care about my feelings.

 

Besides, what if one is role playing a Sith? I'd expect a need on every roll, it's not within my right to affect his/her immersion.

 

Yeah, see having this opinion is what makes you a bad person. I do care about other people's feelings. I treat them in the manner in which I would like to be treated and even when I'm playing a Sith, I don't blame that for my poor anti-social behavior.

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

Yeah, see having this opinion is what makes you a bad person. I do care about other people's feelings. I treat them in the manner in which I would like to be treated and even when I'm playing a Sith, I don't blame that for my poor anti-social behavior.

 

I think you're taking this a little too seriously. Either that, or you're having difficulty differentiating between fantasy and reality.

 

You do realize that Sith and Imperial characters murder, steal, destroy families, etc during the context of the game right? Poor anti-social behavior? Where is that even coming from? How is that relevant to the discussion? Rolling need on a piece of gear makes one anti-social now? Where am I? I'm confused.

 

How does respecting one's immersion and game play choices, good or bad, make me a bad person exactly?

Edited January 30, 2012 by _Ender__Wiggin_

[ispanolfw]

When someone changes lanes from behind me to pass in front of me without a blinker then sharply slows down to make a right turn, it doesn't cause me to have a car accident. That doesn't mean I don't think they're an ******e. And if there was a forum where I could rage to people about using blinkers and not being ****heads I would probably vent there once in a while .

 

Anyway, sure you can hit need on every roll. That makes you a bad person. I don't care if it is real gear or fake gear or whatever, it's you exercising your ability to be an ******e because I can't punch you in the face for doing it and that to me makes you a coward and a jackarse.

 

So what if someone rolls need on everything they will actually use? First of all they won't always win, because rolling need on something doesn't guarantee you get it. Second who are you to say they don't actually need it? I'm not talking about the people who don't even look and just hit need. I'm talking about the ones who will actually use the item in some way.

[gurugeorge]

Nothing but pure speculation and opinion.

 

The purpose of the need/greed is quite obvious. If you 'need' you press need, if you don't 'need' you press greed.

 

Just because you speculate something else, does not make it so.

 

The best option, is to remove the 'need' entirely. And it would be the fairest and easiest to implement. And hurts nobody.

 

The purpose of need/greed as it says in the manual (which I quoted a few pages back), is to allow the player to make a decision whether they want a higher chance of winning an item, or they want to allow another player to have a higher chance of winning the item.

 

One of these is called the "Need" option, the other the "Greed" option. Guess which is which?

 

It's your position that's speculation, the manual says nothing about what you (the player) need.

 

Everything else I've said follows logically from that.

 

Obviously your "best option" is not BW's "best option", since they've implemented a Need/Greed system.

[Wraiven]

I am utterly shocked at some of the replies I am seeing in this thread. People will say *anything* to prove their point. Morality goes right out the window, as does fear for any actions made in game that could upset other players.

 

You have to ask yourself, would I need on that item, that is not my class, that *is* that other guy's class, if he was a big giant mean looking guy who could Chuck Norris my ninja looting butt?

 

No matter what you say, I know that answer would be no. Since this is the webs, you can do whatever you like, and not have to worry about what that guy that you just ninja looted from is going to do to you. Unless of course you run into some crazy mental nut job, who knows how to track your IP address thus linking a home address to that IP address. Now *that* would be SCARY!!!

 

So...having said that, I find it ludicrous that anyone would even have the gall to argue with the OP. You know damn well what the unwritten looting rules are. You just don't give a damn. People like you need to have a purple name tag so that I know to avoid you in game. If you had such a tag, I promise, you would NEVER get in any groups. You know it too.

 

Say what you like, keep pointing out game mechanics and saying "If it allows us to do it, then it's ok" crap all you like, but you know damn well you are dead wrong. A gun's game mechanics allows me to pull the trigger anytime I like...but it would be pretty damn wrong if I used it to shoot random people, right? Extreme, I know...same concept.

 

Get real, stop defending your already weak points and stop discrediting yourselves. The more you people defend ninja looting and rolling on gear not your class, the more you discredit yourself.

[gurugeorge]

 

Anyway, sure you can hit need on every roll. That makes you a bad person.

 

Indeed it does - well, not a "bad person" in real life, necessarily, but a jerk who takes advantage of internet anonymity to jerk around.

 

But the fact that you can identify that they are being a jerk (because their Need roll doesn't match the class they're visibly playing) allows you to share info about them with other people, and ignore them and not team with them. Eventually that particular character won't be able to get a team again.

 

WAI.

Edited January 30, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Jinook_Phi]

Lots and lots of posts with lots of opinions when the answer is actually rather simple- invest some quality time into finding a quality guild, where such things are tightly and fairly managed- problem gone. Ive done my share of PUGS, but never for premium items in premium instances. I may PUG it for a more common item that is an upgrade, but if I were to really want some higher tier stuff, I would most definitely do it through a guild. PUGS have some perks but they have lots of downside, in many ways, not just looting. A PUG is and forever will be, a crap shoot.

[ispanolfw]

Indeed it does - well, not a "bad person" in real life, necessarily, but a jerk who takes advantage of internet anonymity to jerk around.

 

But the fact that you can identify that they are being a jerk (because their Need roll doesn't match the class they're visibly playing) allows you to share info about them with other people, and ignore them and not team with them. Eventually that particular character won't be able to get a team again.

 

WAI.

 

And yet we come back around to others telling us what we are allowed, to avoid your persecution, to roll need on. If it helps my character directly, I will consider needing it. If it helps one of my companions directly, I will consider needing it. If I think it just looks freaking awesome, I will consider needing it. Notice I said consider in each one? I make the choice over whether I do or not. Not you nor anyone else may decide what is or isn't useful enough for me to roll need on. That is really the issue at hand, telling someone else they shouldn't or cannot roll need because you feel they shouldn't.

 

If the need option had some restriction on it to the contrary that would be an entirely different story.

 

You can say it has to match the class as much as you want. And if the item is actually class specific, then so be it. Those items are obviously for that class, it even says so on the item itself. But until you realize, no, not realize. Until you accept that what you feel is important or a priority and in turn what should be considered "need" is not universal, you will still have issues.

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

I am utterly shocked at some of the replies I am seeing in this thread. People will say *anything* to prove their point. Morality goes right out the window, as does fear for any actions made in game that could upset other players.

 

You have to ask yourself, would I need on that item, that is not my class, that *is* that other guy's class, if he was a big giant mean looking guy who could Chuck Norris my ninja looting butt?

 

No matter what you say, I know that answer would be no. Since this is the webs, you can do whatever you like, and not have to worry about what that guy that you just ninja looted from is going to do to you. Unless of course you run into some crazy mental nut job, who knows how to track your IP address thus linking a home address to that IP address. Now *that* would be SCARY!!!

 

So...having said that, I find it ludicrous that anyone would even have the gall to argue with the OP. You know damn well what the unwritten looting rules are. You just don't give a damn. People like you need to have a purple name tag so that I know to avoid you in game. If you had such a tag, I promise, you would NEVER get in any groups. You know it too.

 

Say what you like, keep pointing out game mechanics and saying "If it allows us to do it, then it's ok" crap all you like, but you know damn well you are dead wrong. A gun's game mechanics allows me to pull the trigger anytime I like...but it would be pretty damn wrong if I used it to shoot random people, right? Extreme, I know...same concept.

 

Get real, stop defending your already weak points and stop discrediting yourselves. The more you people defend ninja looting and rolling on gear not your class, the more you discredit yourself.

 

I find your equating real life moral choice and character, in relation to video game behavior and personae, really strange. It's almost as if you can't differentiate choices in real life as being different from those in video games.

 

I mean, I hope all those dudes I beat off a motorcycle with a chain in Road Rash don't hold it against me. Should I notify the next of kin of all the kid's I sniped on Call of Duty the other night?

[Wraiven]

I find your equating real life moral choice and character, in relation to video game behavior and personae, really strange. It's almost as if you can't differentiate choices in real life as being different from those in video games.

 

I mean, I hope all those dudes I beat off a motorcycle with a chain in Road Rash don't hold it against me. Should I notify the next of kin of all the kid's I sniped on Call of Duty the other night?

 

That was just silly to even go there, dude. Not going to dignify that with a response.

[Sai-to]

Hundreds of pages of replies, and there's people that still don't get it.

 

 

Not everyone has the same idea of what constitutes "Needing" an item. Just because you consider something more polite, doesn't make it "standard" or assumed.

 

This is why if you choose to PuG, you have to make your intentions clear. If you are the leader, set ground rules for looting. Or suggest them if you're not the leader. It can be something as simple as "only need on equipment your class can use/benefits from" (or even more specific, role).

 

If someone disagrees, then find someone to replace them. If someone breaks the rules, then kick them before the last person rolls on the item (leader should always roll last).

Edited January 30, 2012 by Sai-to