My Juggernaught hits for the same as my operative.

[Delekii]

Juggernaught level 45.

Operative level 42.

 

Neither is missing any significant burst-enabling abilities, with the exception of Juggernaught's execute - a major boon for Juggernaught. More importantly, neither is level 50, and therefore neither is fighting anyone with significant amounts of expertise, so the damage output is able to be compared.

 

Since the nerf, my operative, who has almost zero maneuverability abilities once out of stealth, hits for around this numbers without any buffs beyond what you get from each of the 4 classes. This is a typical 1 on 1 fight assuming no outside intervention.

 

Hidden Strike: ~3000 (if it crits)

Acid Blade: ~1300 over 6 seconds

Backstab: ~2500 (if it crits)

Shiv: ~1800 (if it crits).

 

If the target isn't dead by then, I am cc'ed or forced to vanish and it restarts, or else someone else has inevitably joined in if it is anywhere near where I should be (eg: near an objective).

 

On my Warrior, I can do the following in a 1 on 1 combat:

 

Charge: ~1000 before crits.

Force Crush: ~2000 over 5 seconds before crits.

Vicious Slash: ~2000

Smash: 4000, garunteed crit, AOE.

 

From there I can go into any number of attacks which all do ~1500-2000 each.

 

 

 

The damage is very, very close to the same, only my Juggernaught can do it about 3 times as often as my operative, because my Juggernaught doesn't have to wait on stealth or use vanish. If I am in the DPS stance, I can do all of this twice within 10 seconds, and 3 times within 18 seconds, before I have any sort of waiting time. On operative, if I don't kill someone in the initial burst, I am forced to either run completely away from combat and hope I don't get dotted, or stay around and try to kill people with my hardest hitting non stealth abilities, once every 9 seconds at best (if I don't get cced or have the person teleport or turn around).

 

On top of all that, my Juggernaught can also guard and taunt, can throw people off edges, has a cc equivalent to flash bang, has spammable AOE 50% slow, has better defensive stats and cooldowns, and can charge for mobility.

 

In comparison, my operative can throw insignificant offspec heals, has 3 second immunity once per minute, has a single target 15 second cooldown slow... and that's it?

 

 

 

 

Why would anyone play operative in the current game environment? Just how heavily is stealth valued? What am I missing?

 

The nerf doesn't really bother me, because I have leveled one of each archetype and will have a level 50 of all 4 within a week or two, so I can always FOTM it up. I just cannot understand the strength of the nerf without any coincidal buff to mobility or control. In fact, since almost everyone has some partial resolve in their bar a lot of the time in PvP, the nerf to jarring strike is a significant nerf to control on operative, to the point where it is almost worth not taking it so you don't accidentally lock out debilitate.

 

 

Edit: I should add before the trolls roll in, that I have absolutely no doubt that frontloaded damage on operative needed toning down. HOWEVER, to do so without any changes to counter it is just mind boggling, truly unbelievable.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Delekii

[SeanPoe]

Because the Bioware team working on SWTOR is trash. The entire game is a disaster. You honestly expect them to balance classes correctly for pvp?

 

I will admit the operative opener did too much burst but that was all the class had. Everything else is terrible in comparison to other classes. I guess the only other beneficial thing operatives have over most other classes is vanish. Which only works if you also use dodge to remove dots, so there goes all your almost trivial survivability while out of stealth. Plus, any competent player can stealth scan or use a targetable aoe to knock someone out of vanish. I do it like 90% of the time on my trooper.

 

When i see an operative out of stealth on someone else, he's 100% dead without touching another person. The class is so fragile it's almost sad.

Edited January 27, 2012 by SeanPoe

[wickedUOF]

Juggernaught level 45.

Operative level 42.

On my Warrior, I can do the following in a 1 on 1 combat:

 

Charge: ~1000 before crits.

Force Crush: ~2000 over 5 seconds before crits.

Vicious Slash: ~2000

Smash: 4000, garunteed crit, AOE.

 

 

Stopped reading here. You can't do that much smash damage at level 45. Furthermore I believe you are talking about PVP and being Bolstered, which makes me believe even more that you're FOS because I don't believe Agents do the same damage as Juggs.

 

I have a level 11 Sniper and a 43 Juggernaut. When I hit level 10 on the Sniper I played a few Huttballs and the first one I got 145k damage which is more than I normally get on my Juggernaut.

[dannythefool]

I have a level 11 Sniper and a 43 Juggernaut. When I hit level 10 on the Sniper I played a few Huttballs and the first one I got 145k damage which is more than I normally get on my Juggernaut.

 

Ok so you're saying snipers do a lot more damage than operatives now?

 

Not sure why you would bring that up otherwise, it doesn't make sense to compare snipers and operatives or juggernaughts anyway. They play completely differently.

Edited January 27, 2012 by dannythefool

[Helig]

Ok so you're saying snipers do a lot more damage than operatives now?

 

Not sure why you would bring that up otherwise, it doesn't make sense to compare snipers and operatives or juggernaughts anyway. They play completely differently.

 

Don't you see? The apple is just like the orange. Except it's an apple. But it's like the orange.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Helig

[Daecollo]

All classes do about 5% DPS away from eachother.

[FINALBOSS]

All classes do about 5% DPS away from eachother.

 

That's a good one, lol.

[anticept]

Operatives dont need a nerf, this is just BS from ppl who get assw00ped because they get nervous, faceroll the keybord in despair when backstabbed and die.

 

The reason i say this (they dont need nerf) is because the stealth attack is the main weapon of the operative.

 

When outside the stealth he becomes a lot more vulnerable than the sniper in combat.

 

If u nerf the damage to the point that coming out of stealth (after the stab) will not give u real chances of killing you opponent, then you will simply kill the class, because that is their main weapon.

 

The same goes for scoundrel: once out of the stealth, they are not all powerful, and become quite vulnerable.

 

I really have no major complains to make in this game about the classes: every one of them has weak and strong points, but it looks like ppl who cant play their classes properly insist on keep crying about this or that "Overpowered class", asking Bioware to save their asses with big nerfs....when they should improve their crappy play style and learn the basics.

 

What is the basics then you get attacked by an OP and die with in 3 secs and the OP vanishes and goes on to wait for his cds or whatever and you was out of stealth for whole 4-5 secs ?

Just saying either CC or dmg you can´t have both at the same time.

 

I bet that you´re the OP who always skulks around looking for low healths and easy fights with illusions of grandeur.

[NSUCK]

Stopped reading here. You can't do that much smash damage at level 45. Furthermore I believe you are talking about PVP and being Bolstered, which makes me believe even more that you're FOS because I don't believe Agents do the same damage as Juggs.

 

I have a level 11 Sniper and a 43 Juggernaut. When I hit level 10 on the Sniper I played a few Huttballs and the first one I got 145k damage which is more than I normally get on my Juggernaut.

 

Agreed, my 50 jugg (almost full champ) rarely does over 100k damage, mostly protection points & objectives. I get attacked by operatives and see 2000, 2500, 1800, 3000 flash. I can do no where near that damage in succession w/ boosts even.

[Delekii]

Stopped reading here. You can't do that much smash damage at level 45. Furthermore I believe you are talking about PVP and being Bolstered, which makes me believe even more that you're FOS because I don't believe Agents do the same damage as Juggs.

 

Wanna bet?

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/o761b6.jpg

 

1293 x 1.7343 x 2 = 4485 damage.

 

They have armor, but I ignore 20% of it permanatly, and a further 20% through debuff, while solo. Let's not even think about expertise buffs. I don't even have surge everywhere that I could have it. On my heavy armor juggernaught, a loss of 40% armor means ~15% mitigation remaining, bringing it to just below 4000. On a class with less armor, the damage is over 4000.

 

You were saying?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Delekii

[iainmckenna]

less than 2 months and ur crying alredy

[EduardoJN]

What is the basics then you get attacked by an OP and die with in 3 secs and the OP vanishes and goes on to wait for his cds or whatever and you was out of stealth for whole 4-5 secs ?

Just saying either CC or dmg you can´t have both at the same time.

 

I bet that you´re the OP who always skulks around looking for low healths and easy fights with illusions of grandeur.

 

Your talking about Operatives or Robocop?

 

If u got killed in 3 seconds (i mean 3 SECONDS) its because there was a huge diference between you and the operative: gear, expertise, level, whatever, and not because the class is all powerfull.

 

Every class has CC and damage in this game, so does the Op, and he really NEEDS them to survive once outside the stealth, after landing his open burst (which, btw, u can break with resolve if u kiss the floor).

 

If the devs take the burst damage and/or the CC´s away, they will kill the class.

 

Depending on the build (plus stims, relics, gear) every class on this game has the potential to crit tons of damage...so what are you gonna do next?

 

Cry for help and ask Bioware for more nerfs once u got a 10k crit in a strike?

 

This is endless, learn to play your class properly instead.

[Karnyvor]

WOW your level 42 Jugg hits with vicious strike for 2k? My lvl 50 mara doesn't hit that hard without a crit. I have over 500 expertise.

[Delekii]

WOW your level 42 Jugg hits with vicious strike for 2k? My lvl 50 mara doesn't hit that hard without a crit. I have over 500 expertise.

 

Sorry, 2k is with crit on vicious slash. ~1.3k without crit.

That said, vicious slash is not an important part of pvp damage, it is a rage permitted filler, and has a 15% bonus to crit chance.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Delekii

[Kuari]

Never been killed in a matter of seconds at level 50 by a Juggarnaut/Guardian. Have had it happen repeatedly from a Scoundrel/Operative, so really, I'm not 100% sure I buy this, but meh, suppose anything is possible or there's some missing part of the equation you're not stating.

[flowqz]

Sorry, 2k is with crit on vicious slash. ~1.3k without crit.

That said, vicious slash is not an important part of pvp damage, it is a rage permitted filler, and has a 15% bonus to crit chance.

 

your tooltip says 1,3k dmg and u say u deal 1,3k dmg? have you ever heard of something like mitigation?

[Badlander]

Even if the OP's post was true about damage a JUGG can not stun lock you down till you are dead.

[Delekii]

your tooltip says 1,3k dmg and u say u deal 1,3k dmg? have you ever heard of something like mitigation?

 

Clearly you didn't read my previous post on smash damage, or you would see that I am perfectly well aware of the effect of mitigation. Anyway, as I said, vicious slash is not an important part of the damage rotation in PvP, I only put it there for comparison. Other abilities such as force scream and obliterate do significantly more than slash, on cooldowns.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Delekii

[Delekii]

Even if the OP's post was true about damage a JUGG can not stun lock you down till you are dead.

 

Neither can an operative. 1.5 second stun completely fills resolve bar on hidden strike, if it isn't talented you don't get stunned until after he is out of stealth.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Delekii

[DustomaticGXC]

Wanna bet?

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/o761b6.jpg

 

1293 x 1.7343 x 2 = 4485 damage.

 

They have armor, but I ignore 20% of it permanatly, and a further 20% through debuff, while solo. Let's not even think about expertise buffs. I don't even have surge everywhere that I could have it. On my heavy armor juggernaught, a loss of 40% armor means ~15% mitigation remaining, bringing it to just below 4000. On a class with less armor, the damage is over 4000.

 

You were saying?

 

I'm a rank 55 Rage Juggernaut. I remember very well what kind of damage I was doing with smash before 50. It wasn't 4k.

[Delekii]

I'm a rank 55 Rage Juggernaut. I remember very well what kind of damage I was doing with smash before 50. It wasn't 4k.

 

Math says you are wrong, or you were gearing wrong, or you weren't geared.

[dcgregorya]

Let's think about this reasonably. When the game started the devs said fully spec'd DPS talent tree classes were within 10% of each other. Now, operatives just took a 20% nerf to their armor penetration along with a 20% nerf to hidden strike. Either their metrics were wrong when they made the first claim or they completely crippled the spec. Amirite?

[Falkonwing]

They are both Dps Specs, theres nothing wrong with their dmg beeing compareable.

 

Also you just sum up your "highest" hits... this has nothing to do with actual dps, cooldowns, rotation or anything else... also you are not lvl 50... pvp in most games is and should be balanced around endgame pvp.

 

/Thread

[Alekerro]

Yep operatives are unbalanced:

My jugg (full champ war leader + impl\dev\wrist\chest BM) gettin awesome damage from oper's! Backstub -3000k then stuns and ~ -5000k. - Ok i can handle it with pvp medpacks etc.

But what i shall do when im playin as DPS jugg? 16k HP

Yeh i know opers are good as dps better than jugg....but -30% HP from 1 backstub? wth?

[Delekii]

They are both Dps Specs, theres nothing wrong with their dmg beeing compareable.

 

Also you just sum up your "highest" hits... this has nothing to do with actual dps, cooldowns, rotation or anything else... also you are not lvl 50... pvp in most games is and should be balanced around endgame pvp.

 

/Thread

 

No, there is nothing wrong with two dps specs being equal. However, because these two specs do comparable DAMAGE, they are NOT equal, because one has significantly more utility.

 

 

As for my "highest hits", they are the highest hits in BOTH cases, against targets with equal expertise (eg: none). From a comparative point of view, they are close enough to equal situations to compare damage values. It is not the actual value that I was discussing, it was the comparative value. Neither case uses significant cooldowns, as I said in the very first post; the warrior ALWAYS gets garunteed crits on smash, ALWAYS gets 100% damage bonus on smash, and ALWAYS gets ~70% surge bonus. Buffs on expertise and trinkets would take that damage even higher; hence the 8k+ slams at level 50 despite no more talents or upgrades to the ability from 45.

 

As for balancing around endgame, the fact that there is boost, the fact that both characters are of comparable level and the fact that neither gains significant damage on any listed ability between now and 50 means you are wrong; these abilities are comparable to their 50 counterparts, sans gear changes (which don't matter in a comparative analysis).

 

Ultimately, in the most fair of situations, every single person at 50 would have every single piece of expertise gear they could, and the damage difference between pvp gear and non pvp gear would be negligable (~1%).

 

What all this is saying is that the easiest place to COMPARE damage at this point is PRE 50 in a warfront with characters at similar levels against similar targets.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Delekii