President and COO of HeroEngine blames Bioware for poor coding!

[PostalTwinkie]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

No. Just no.

 

Just smile politely and walk away.....it is the safe thing to do.

[Malice_Nihilim]

I am aware they made very great PvE products in the past. But they are a developer and producing an MMO, and any relevant MMO has had a strong PvP theme. But let's side step the gaming aspect of it and look strictly at the business aspect of it....

 

They are a company that is going to deliver a product to a customer base, it is their job to anticipate the usage and demand of their product. Then structure their product around that projected demand in order to maximize revenue, and keep the customer happy. In my business I am not going to expand my business into another area without first determining the demand and need of that area. It is a basic business principle that any successful company is going to follow....

 

Know your customers!

 

It isn't a stretch of the mind to think about PvP in an MMO...

 

 

Sure, but you have to understand that games are often developed on the egos of there Producers. BW originally advertised they didn't want people with MMO experience when they were doing opening hires. They wanted a 'fresh look' they were going to make something new.....(which of course ended up being a WoW model clone, but whatever).

 

So based on the egos and old experiences and many years of development by this company, its far from hard to grasp that they did what they knew, and like every video you will ever see to convince you not to be a game designer, it always starts with 'my game idea is awesome and cool and unique and people will love it'....It is rarely ever founded on 'business formula' and the ones that are, are called BF3, Madden, etc.

[Lazorous]

Yea, a bit confusing I know and I apologize, let me try and clear that up.

 

From a business aspect I can't agree with the practice of suits and investors forcing the developer to make snap decisions and rush a product, that is what I meant in the post I said I "couldn't agree" on. I agree 100% that it does happen, even though it is wrong. I also agree with what you just said in that BW being so tight lipped does lend to the belief they might have been forced on the matter.

 

In that matter, we are both in agreement. Thanks for the clarification.

[Voorshwa]

For the people that are saying that each server houses 'Thousands of players' you couldn't be more wrong.

 

In a MMO there are several servers for each 'Server' you pick on the Select screen. As you zone in and out of areas, your character and everything about your character are passed off to another server. Some MMO's do it much more cleanly than SWTOR because they don't use Load Screens. But every time you see a loading screen, you are being passed to another server.

 

I don't know the architecture that SWTOR has in place, but I would guess there are at least a dozen or more servers per 'Server' you are on in the Select screen.

 

V

[bklynfinest]

The answer is easy. BW said over and over and over and over and over and over and over again....

 

This is a story driven theme park crafted experience.

 

There design and engineering theory for years was based on 4-8 people running around doing quests and enjoying there story....

 

than to placate the masses howling about PvP, they put in WZ....clearly not a lot of effort went into them as there are only 3. PvP's importance is also noted by the fact that the guy in charge of PvP, Gabe, is also the guy who lead the team to do ALL the flash points and Ops...So you tell me where the effort was put in design and development.

 

 

Then in beta we cried and cried that PvP would be sooooo awesome if we had a planet set up to battle over...eventually they crumbled and bam, we have illum, thrown together last second.

 

This is not a PvP game, this wasn't designed to be a PvP game and so was never coded with the thought of PvP, it was only in the last year that they stapled the bastard child of PvP onto this game. No matter how you slice is, at its core, by design, PvPers are the second class community and not who this game was at all focusing on, down to its deepest core.

 

 

It's not just PvP. Fleet is the same exact way the only reason it is not a *complete* slideshow is because there's no fighting. Every semi crowded zone gets the same way if more than 10 people are on your screen. It's one thing to not design your game for PvP it's another matter when it simply cannot handle crowded areas.

[Walrusaurus]

Again, is it a server housing thousands of players? No

 

Is it a server housing thousands of players and several static maps? No

 

Is it a server housing thousands of players, several static maps and several pvp instances? No

 

It is a server housing 64 players MAXIMUM, thus it won't have nowhere near the same stress load that an MMO does.

 

And just so you know, BF3 wasn't "spot on" at release either, plenty of players complained about stuttering framerates and other issues at release, ironed out with patches.

 

So once again, if you must use an analogy, compare it to another MMO and MMO engine and not an FPS with an FPS engine.

 

The differences are like Night and Day.

 

I don't think you understand how server architecture works. BF3 is not running one instance per physical server, no game is: that'd be ridiculous. My guess would be that its likely running 6-10 instances per server. But neither is TOR hosting the entirety of one Realm on a single physical server. An MMO 'server' is actually a server cluster meaning multiple physical servers networked together. In TOR's case they likely have 4-6 servers dedicated to running the game world and then 1-2 each for PvP and PvE instancing.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Walrusaurus

[Dreadspectre]

Well.. clearly lets just compare 2 games quick

 

BF2 on Frostbite 2 Engine and this Swtor on HeroEngine:

 

IN Bf3 on 64 player map, where everything is destructible, bullets flying here and there, flames, explosions we get stable game with 60FPS Ultra Settings.

 

Now lets pick any 8v8 Warzone! What do we see? Horrible performance and fps.

 

Let's pick Ilum 32 vs 32 fight. What do we get? A *********** 1 fps SLIDESHOW

 

Except it's not the same. Way more data to load per character with all the gear models, spell graphics etc etc.

 

Comparing an FPS where pretty much everyone has the same look/gear/abilities to an MMO is not a good argument.

[Zixxer]

Just smile politely and walk away.....it is the safe thing to do.

 

A guy at the ATT store told me if I was having lock up issues with my IPhone, I should remove teh battery and see if that helps. I just smiled and walked away. So it does work, just smile and walk away.

[Faat]

Sure, but you have to understand that games are often developed on the egos of there Producers. BW originally advertised they didn't want people with MMO experience when they were doing opening hires. They wanted a 'fresh look' they were going to make something new.....(which of course ended up being a WoW model clone, but whatever).

 

So based on the egos and old experiences and many years of development by this company, its far from hard to grasp that they did what they knew, and like every video you will ever see to convince you not to be a game designer, it always starts with 'my game idea is awesome and cool and unique and people will love it'....It is rarely ever founded on 'business formula' and the ones that are, are called BF3, Madden, etc.

 

yet they brought up Mythic employees to help them with their PvP system. And we all know WAR is the best balanced PvP experience right ? Not.

 

War still has class imbalance / realm imbalance, poor performances due to old engine, gear imbalance, basically, PvP in SWToR really looks like WAR, with the exception being that there's practically no RvR and CC immunity that's actually working.

 

I liked WAR because I always was on top of the food chain, clubbing baby seals like a real Chuck *********** Norris. But then I know this is bad for player retention.

 

I really hope they get their **** together and improve their endgame and PvP. I really like the PVE levelling from 1-50 so far.

[Code_Airwolf]

It's really like opening up a tour bus franchize, and buying a fleet of clown cars that you're convinced will each hold 30 people comfortably.

 

Hey! I'll have you know those clown cars can EASILY hold 40 people with plenty of head room AND leg room, and that's WITH tall curly or pointy hair and big oversized red shoes. Without the big red shoes, you can get 50 in, and still use the cup holders and front reclining seats!

 

Terrible analogy!

 

Edited January 25, 2012 by Code_Airwolf

[Husanak]

I really wish that they would just stop offering MMO PvP since their engines can't handle it and none of them really know how to implement it in a balanced format anyway.

 

ummm Eve.

 

Granted I don't see Tor guilds informing the Devs when they are planning a big offensive.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Husanak

[Jaegon]

The poor performance in Ilum I'm getting isn't GPU based for sure, im running a GTX 570 and i typically get 10 FPS in large battles on high graphics, when i turn the graphics all the way down, as low as everything can go, my FPS gets even worse. I'm also running an i7 @ 3.22 GHz and 6 GB of overclocked high spec RAM. This just doesn't make since, i mean SWTOR's graphics look like **** in comparison to other games out there that run just fine on my rig, hell look at the prefabricated low texture backgrounds and stuff in game, i dont get it lol.

[Qeuzolt]

Well.. clearly lets just compare 2 games quick

 

BF2 on Frostbite 2 Engine and this Swtor on HeroEngine:

 

IN Bf3 on 64 player map, where everything is destructible, bullets flying here and there, flames, explosions we get stable game with 60FPS Ultra Settings.

 

Now lets pick any 8v8 Warzone! What do we see? Horrible performance and fps.

 

Let's pick Ilum 32 vs 32 fight. What do we get? A *********** 1 fps SLIDESHOW

 

I think this is a bit biased. My system runs this game fine, 100+ FPS in normal zones, 80+ in fleet, over 60 in WZ and large scale ilum fights I usually wont drop below 60. My system is really overpowered for this game though. I think if you can run BF3 @ max settings and get 60fps you should be similar though.

[Malice_Nihilim]

It's not just PvP. Fleet is the same exact way the only reason it is not a *complete* slideshow is because there's no fighting. Every semi crowded zone gets the same way if more than 10 people are on your screen. It's one thing to not design your game for PvP it's another matter when it simply cannot handle crowded areas.

 

I don't know about you, but my 'fleet' has 200+ people on it, and I really only run into bad stuff when i go to a side with holo-trees, they take a bit to load. Sure I'm laggy, but I'm on a crap machine, when I'm on the new rig I built for a friend, I don't lag at all on the fleet

[Malice_Nihilim]

yet they brought up Mythic employees to help them with their PvP system. And we all know WAR is the best balanced PvP experience right ? Not.

 

They actually didn't bring Mythic people over to help with there PvP system. In fact no one that worked on PvP at Mythic is working on PvP at BW. You have Gabe, the guy who did dungeon design for Mythic, now in charge of the Dungeons on SWTOR...oh and PvP when he has time.

 

War still has class imbalance / realm imbalance, poor performances due to old engine, gear imbalance, basically, PvP in SWToR really looks like WAR, with the exception being that there's practically no RvR and CC immunity that's actually working.

 

WAR's issue is no one works on it. No one worked on it after 6 months of launch, they fired 90% of there staff so no surprise the game is not evolving, it has no budget or bodies to evolve it with, they have a small team keeping up on bug fixes and adding new content here and there because a content designer is a lot cheaper to pay then a Combat/Careers person.

 

I liked WAR because I always was on top of the food chain, clubbing baby seals like a real Chuck *********** Norris. But then I know this is bad for player retention.

 

I really hope they get their **** together and improve their endgame and PvP. I really like the PVE levelling from 1-50 so far.

 

Well, SWTOR is 'to big to fail', its worth it at this stage, for EA to throw more money at it, unlike WAR

 

You are making some vast assumptions.

[DemonThirsty]

I think this is a bit biased. My system runs this game fine, 100+ FPS in normal zones, 80+ in fleet, over 60 in WZ and large scale ilum fights I usually wont drop below 60. My system is really overpowered for this game though. I think if you can run BF3 @ max settings and get 60fps you should be similar though.

 

So you're saying that my i7 950 @ 3.07GHZ, 6GB of Mushkin overclocked RAM and GTX470 is a ****** rig and it's perfectly normal that I get huge FPS drops in almost all crowded areas of the game? Also, how exactly do you explain that changing graphics quality within the game doesn't alter FPS at all? @Ilum in big fights, I'm lucky if I'm able to see anything due to slideshow, let alone 2 sec stutters when I kill somebody or if the objective is taken.. Game is broken and it's not related to our rigs at all.

[Blarpped]

Also, I'd like to add that in WAR, you simply had to have a PC upgrade to have a decent FPS even in huge fights, just had to disable graphical effects on others and on ground. Seriously, I heard people complaining, when ultimately, their PC couldn't handle the heat. Sure, in the 1st year, there was server DCing when big stalemates occured, that's been fixed, but most players bad FPS was client side.

 

I haven't experienced Ilum yet, just bought SWToR, but from my experience, there's no FPS drop whatsoever in 8vs8, If you struggle to get a decent framerate in those matches, upgrade your PC. Just my 2c.

 

Warhammer turned out pretty good. Oh wait...

 

edit:

 

i5 2500k 3.3 ghz

8gb ddr3 1600mhz

hd 6770

 

Drivers up do date. 700 watt psu. Liquid cooling. Alderaan can go as low as 10-15 FPS. It's not a monster machine by any stretch of the imagination, but it's pretty close to a $1000 machine with current gen hardware. *** do I need to upgrade? I could upgrade my GPU but since it never even comes close to 80% utilization I don't see the point.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Blarpped

[Rancorzealot]

ummm Eve.

 

Granted I don't see Tor guilds informing the Devs when they are planning a big offensive.

 

Not true, I have asked the dev's numerous times to kick everyone off Ilum so me and my guild could PVP. They refused my request, obvious haters.

[djpravda]

lol, i've only got 4 gigs of ram in this machine and i hardly ever experience lag and almost always have over 60 fps, that's with a HD5770

 

Really?? troll more ?

[NysanderX]

Cool dude. I get 5-19 FPS in the fleet with a i7 860, GTX570, 8GB DDR3 and 300GB SSD. My buddy has a older rig and gets better FPS on medium settings than I do on low. I get pauses and less than 5 FPS in Ilum. Pvp works OK though in warzones. I get 25-30 FPS which is playable. It's nasty looking, but playable. Barely.

 

LOL i play the game just fine with the exception of illum where the backend simply cant handle it ATM.. No idea where some of this crap is coming from, the game is not as bad as you people make it seem. Note that i did not read all and every post, but after reading something along these lines "high end machines running 5fps, and anything past a 5v5 warzone is a lagfest" i figured its not worth it; I rarely lag in warzones, and i dont consider my computer to be a "High End Machine" even though 3 years ago it was, i still get 60fps with the exception of illum mass pvp.

 

I can only conclude theres user error happening somewhere along the lines ther, or massive massive trolls (which i wouldnt be surprised). Then again theres people out there who claim they have a "High End Machine" and take twice as long to load a League of Legends or StarCraft match, and i dont even have an ssd. Yes bioware could have done a better job, but no way in hell would i consider this terrible like some of you do. Perhaps those that do need to realize its 2012 and take a look at the new technology out there, Core 2 Duo is not considered High End anymore..

[dbseeker]

I swear I KNEW it was the engine even before this article. I friggin' NEW IT. Everyone on vent was complaining and all of us have awesome rigs and yet 5-10 fps in 25-25 pvp matches?!!?? Wooooow. I honestly feared it might be the engine and if that's the case, this game is doomed. But I hope they say and do something about this because at the current state of this game; it's unacceptable.

[dbseeker]

/bump, cause this needs to be address asap. I for one like this game and want success for it, but under its current pvp state, it's unacceptable to deal with this vomit lag. It simply is unacceptable and unplayable. I have a high end rig and have crashed several times during pvp matches in ilum. No game, let along an MMO have I experienced this kind of nonsense. Having played Rift, man, that game you can have 40+ players and the frame rate would barely drop by 5 or so. It ran smooth as silk, but this game, OMG, /tsk /tsk /tsk is all I can really say.

[oblongship]

Honestly the way this game is coded is beyond pathetic.

 

The bugs, the responsiveness and everything are not anywhere near excusable even for a newly released game.

 

I have lost so much respect for Bioware its not even funny. This game has already seen people leave in droves and their server struggle to hit Heavy at peak times.

 

It's very sad and I want them to succeed and turn this into an amazing game, but with their current talent it doesn't seem likely.

[Adacian]

hurry up gw2

 

You would think Bioware would have learned from the mistakes made in many other failed MMO.

 

We should never have seen a patch to SW adding content when there are so many issues unaddressed.

The title star wars wont save this game if Bioware doesn't get it together and start paying attention to the players and fixing in game issues fast and furious.

 

A great example that Bioware should pay close attention to - the company producing the game EVE was arrogant. They ignored their player base and did what they wanted without addressing the issues. In addition were condescending to the player community (sound familiar), It almost killed the game.

After much apologizing to their player base in videos and blogs, they are working hard to make a game the players want to play. They are responsive to their player community and answer every ticket, not just close them. First day back playing EvE i had a moderator contact me in game to see if i needed any help or information.

[Zythaera]

hurry up gw2

 

You would think Bioware would have learned from the mistakes made in many other failed MMO.

 

We should never have seen a patch to SW adding content when there are so many issues unaddressed.

The title star wars wont save this game if Bioware doesn't get it together and start paying attention to the players and fixing in game issues fast and furious.

 

A great example that Bioware should pay close attention to - the company producing the game EVE was arrogant. They ignored their player base and did what they wanted without addressing the issues. In addition were condescending to the player community (sound familiar), It almost killed the game.

After much apologizing to their player base in videos and blogs, they are working hard to make a game the players want to play. They are responsive to their player community and answer every ticket, not just close them. First day back playing EvE i had a moderator contact me in game to see if i needed any help or information.

 

Yeah, EVE support become the best. They really do care. I wish BW cared as much.