PostalTwinkie Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The answer is easy. BW said over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.... This is a story driven theme park crafted experience. There design and engineering theory for years was based on 4-8 people running around doing quests and enjoying there story.... than to placate the masses howling about PvP, they put in WZ....clearly not a lot of effort went into them as there are only 3. PvP's importance is also noted by the fact that the guy in charge of PvP, Gabe, is also the guy who lead the team to do ALL the flash points and Ops...So you tell me where the effort was put in design and development. Then in beta we cried and cried that PvP would be sooooo awesome if we had a planet set up to battle over...eventually they crumbled and bam, we have illum, thrown together last second. This is not a PvP game, this wasn't designed to be a PvP game and so was never coded with the thought of PvP, it was only in the last year that they stapled the bastard child of PvP onto this game. No matter how you slice is, at its core, by design, PvPers are the second class community and not who this game was at all focusing on, down to its deepest core. While I wasn't around when the above was said...... How in the hell can BioWare not expect people to want PvP in a SW based MMO? There is no bigger war in geekdom than what is seen in the SW universe. Did they actually expect to give people Lightsabers and them not want to beat the hell out of the opposing faction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hey IT geniuses: Stop arguing about scalability on a system you know zero about. You don't know what the back end is, the gear is, or really anything that would allow you to make even close to an informed statement on this, let alone an educated one. Who cares who's fault it is? It doesn't change the fact that the engine is crap. And stop apologizing for BioWare by saying "EA made them do it. BOOOO EA!" BioWare IS EA. They merged. EA isn't some outside entity coming into mom & pop BioWare with thumb screws and iron maidens to torture the poor developers. You don't think there weren't bonuses involved in hitting a target date? EVERYONE over there wanted this thing to ship at Christmas. It's funny because there are so many people who are also self-proclaimed software developers that believe things should have been done a specific way, and the time it should take to do it. People in the related fields can add to the discussion by presented educated guesses based on their knowledge. As a software developer and business enthusiast I can tell you this. Merging a company doesn't always make them a whole. You still have departments. There are those executives who make the decisions, and the designers and developers who do the work. The two aren't always on the same page. And in business arrangements, there are often investors. Investors can also have a bit of say on the product, even if they aren't fully aware of everything relating to the product. EA may be the mother company, but BW is still one of their development division. Something like, I'm probably not exact on the way they split it up, but it's an educated guess. So you can have this likely scenario (which happens a lot in software development). Investors and Executives agree on an arrangement for a product. The designers and developers get the project. As time goes by, investors are itching to see a return and they pressure the executives. Now the executives are pressuring the designers and developers on the product. The developers say they have a product that is relatively stable and ready to ship, but it's not complete. Executives say, roll it out because we need to see returns. Developers may disagree but what choice do they have? Product is rolled out with bugs, but they can be patched. Some revenue is made, Executives and Investors are at least satisfied for the moment. Now developers work hard to continue patching and updating the software. If you're not aware of this cycle of events relative to business, then you're just as uninformed as anyone else who claims to know everything. You can either accept the way business works and support their product, or you don't and move on to something else. The choice is yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethal_ghost Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 this engine and what bioware did or didnt do to it is the cause of many of this games problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Nice job OP, quoting out of context and drawing your own conclusions rather than reading the whole article. If these problems weren't fixable at all, it would be a bad engine indeed- considering BW has already fixed some of the memory leaks though- it would seem fixes can happen and more are on the way. Month past release... I should worry why? I thought all the haters and conspiracy nutjobs had quit by now... why do you people keep paying for this game if you hate it so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 While I wasn't around when the above was said...... How in the hell can BioWare not expect people to want PvP in a SW based MMO? There is no bigger war in geekdom than what is seen in the SW universe. Did they actually expect to give people Lightsabers and them not want to beat the hell out of the opposing faction? Not everyone is into PvP. I know at least 5 out of my 8 friends playing SWTOR who don't care for PvP at all. I'm a huge PvP'er, but I play the game for my friends, not for the full intention of PvP. And some are fine switching between the two, but many are interested in the PvE element also. It's clear BW catered to the PvE'ers to begin with, when they developed their story oriented characters, and their development. PvP was clearly an afterthought, but it remains to be seen how things will progress. So the point is, don't assume everyone will be into PvP geekdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) It's funny because there are so many people who are also self-proclaimed software developers that believe things should have been done a specific way, and the time it should take to do it. People in the related fields can add to the discussion by presented educated guesses based on their knowledge. As a software developer and business enthusiast I can tell you this. Merging a company doesn't always make them a whole. You still have departments. There are those executives who make the decisions, and the designers and developers who do the work. The two aren't always on the same page. And in business arrangements, there are often investors. Investors can also have a bit of say on the product, even if they aren't fully aware of everything relating to the product. EA may be the mother company, but BW is still one of their development division. Something like, I'm probably not exact on the way they split it up, but it's an educated guess. So you can have this likely scenario (which happens a lot in software development). Investors and Executives agree on an arrangement for a product. The designers and developers get the project. As time goes by, investors are itching to see a return and they pressure the executives. Now the executives are pressuring the designers and developers on the product. The developers say they have a product that is relatively stable and ready to ship, but it's not complete. Executives say, roll it out because we need to see returns. Developers may disagree but what choice do they have? Product is rolled out with bugs, but they can be patched. Some revenue is made, Executives and Investors are at least satisfied for the moment. Now developers work hard to continue patching and updating the software. If you're not aware of this cycle of events relative to business, then you're just as uninformed as anyone else who claims to know everything. You can either accept the way business works and support their product, or you don't and move on to something else. The choice is yours. As have experience in all levels of what you describe, and can not agree with what you describe. This design and business philosophy is completely wrong and in the end doesn't work. There are plenty of examples as to why this doesn't work and why, if it was done this way, should have been avoided. Another example that applies to this discussion is Blizzard with Diablo III. Blizzard is not its own company anymore, but do you think they are going to cave to Activision and release D3 early? Nope! Blizzard as the developer knows when it is ready and when the people can have it.... If anything I would point fingers at George Lucas. He is known industry wide as being overly demanding and ridiculous to deal with on any licensed product. If any person put a rush on anything it would have been him. But this is my purely unscientific opinion based off the numerous interviews I have read of people that have worked with him in the past. Either way BW should have been strong enough to stand up for what is right and not give in and release when not ready, if that is what happen. Edited January 25, 2012 by PostalTwinkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malice_Nihilim Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 While I wasn't around when the above was said...... How in the hell can BioWare not expect people to want PvP in a SW based MMO? There is no bigger war in geekdom than what is seen in the SW universe. Did they actually expect to give people Lightsabers and them not want to beat the hell out of the opposing faction? You ARE talking about the company that made hordes of other PvE single player titles. Why would they think people needed more then some co-op team play to make them happy with KOTOR 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crummosh Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Nice job OP, quoting out of context and drawing your own conclusions rather than reading the whole article. If these problems weren't fixable at all, it would be a bad engine indeed- considering BW has already fixed some of the memory leaks though- it would seem fixes can happen and more are on the way. Month past release... I should worry why? I thought all the haters and conspiracy nutjobs had quit by now... why do you people keep paying for this game if you hate it so much? There are people hating wow since 2005 and still playing. Unfortunatly these kind of people dwell on forums. I am having fun with the game and at least on my server a lot of people is doing the same, considering on weekends we have warzone running all night. Edited January 25, 2012 by Crummosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revanmug Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Well.. clearly lets just compare 2 games quick BF2 on Frostbite 2 Engine and this Swtor on HeroEngine: IN Bf3 on 64 player map, where everything is destructible, bullets flying here and there, flames, explosions we get stable game with 60FPS Ultra Settings. Now lets pick any 8v8 Warzone! What do we see? Horrible performance and fps. Let's pick Ilum 32 vs 32 fight. What do we get? A *********** 1 fps SLIDESHOW Are you talking of bf2 or bf3? You clearly haven't played bf3 64 with their server lagging, poor netcode and hitbox. It isn't as bad now server wise but it has been 4 months now... Every patch, they fix something and broke something else. Hello 2 people shooting at each other and both dying because of lag. Or dying after crossing a corner. Or emptying a magazine into someone and not doing a thing because that person is d/c or lagging bad etc... Ilum is awful but it is probably best to pick another game to show your point. Edited January 25, 2012 by Revanmug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Not everyone is into PvP. I know at least 5 out of my 8 friends playing SWTOR who don't care for PvP at all. I'm a huge PvP'er, but I play the game for my friends, not for the full intention of PvP. And some are fine switching between the two, but many are interested in the PvE element also. It's clear BW catered to the PvE'ers to begin with, when they developed their story oriented characters, and their development. PvP was clearly an afterthought, but it remains to be seen how things will progress. So the point is, don't assume everyone will be into PvP geekdom. I am not assuming everyone will be into PvP, I was mainly in it for PvE until end game. But you still can't argue the fact that if you are Sith or Jedi and see the opposing faction go wandering by you don't have an urge to go at it. This isn't My Little Pony.... But I do agree with you 100% that PvP was an afterthought on this game. Although the truth is there was no reason why BW couldn't approach both aspects of the game at the same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inseeisyou Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Regarding SW:TOR, we have no way to know how they are handling graphics detail, shading, or other factors that impact frame rate. An engine is the first step, and then it’s up to the engineers and art directors to manage the technical steps necessary to implement their game design. So, we can’t really give you any insight on how their game is performing in that way, and I’m sure they are working hard at improving any specific issues they are seeing. BioWare is responsible for their own game, we gave them the tools. by Neil Harris, President and COO of HeroEngine Where does he mention "bad coding" as you attempt to claim in your summary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The answer is easy. BW said over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.... This is a story driven theme park crafted experience. There design and engineering theory for years was based on 4-8 people running around doing quests and enjoying there story.... than to placate the masses howling about PvP, they put in WZ....clearly not a lot of effort went into them as there are only 3. PvP's importance is also noted by the fact that the guy in charge of PvP, Gabe, is also the guy who lead the team to do ALL the flash points and Ops...So you tell me where the effort was put in design and development. Then in beta we cried and cried that PvP would be sooooo awesome if we had a planet set up to battle over...eventually they crumbled and bam, we have illum, thrown together last second. This is not a PvP game, this wasn't designed to be a PvP game and so was never coded with the thought of PvP, it was only in the last year that they stapled the bastard child of PvP onto this game. No matter how you slice is, at its core, by design, PvPers are the second class community and not who this game was at all focusing on, down to its deepest core. Wrong! Member number 884 here. Ive been watching the game since they were pulling lightsaber sketches out of dumpsters behind bioware austin. Bioware has ALWAYS said time after time that this is star WARS and PvP would be a large part of the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't know when ever it is the engine or Bioware or maybe the game runs godly on some specs.But on my rig it runs like garbage and that's on new rig that costs around 2000 Euro. Problems: Huge FPS drops in certain areas, we're talking a +30 FPS drop in a closed area.FPS drops in battle groundsSlide show in the PVP zone.Bloom cuts FPS in half Slow loading timesTextures looking horribleMemory leaksCrash bugs This list can go on.I just don't get why they went for this approach. To top it off. A lot of server lag, it's insane (this is for Europe since they picked Ireland which is one of the worst locations).We're talking about 3 seconds lag spikes in instances and what not while my MS is 32 (which is still pretty high for the con I have). End result SWTOR is a laggy game with a horrible optimization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) You ARE talking about the company that made hordes of other PvE single player titles. Why would they think people needed more then some co-op team play to make them happy with KOTOR 3. I am aware they made very great PvE products in the past. But they are a developer and producing an MMO, and any relevant MMO has had a strong PvP theme. But let's side step the gaming aspect of it and look strictly at the business aspect of it.... They are a company that is going to deliver a product to a customer base, it is their job to anticipate the usage and demand of their product. Then structure their product around that projected demand in order to maximize revenue, and keep the customer happy. In my business I am not going to expand my business into another area without first determining the demand and need of that area. It is a basic business principle that any successful company is going to follow.... Know your customers! It isn't a stretch of the mind to think about PvP in an MMO... I don't know when ever it is the engine or Bioware or maybe the game runs godly on some specs. But on my rig it runs like garbage and that's on new rig that costs around 2000 Euro. Problems: Huge FPS drops in certain areas, we're talking a +30 FPS drop in a closed area. FPS drops in battle grounds Slide show in the PVP zone. Bloom cuts FPS in half Slow loading times Textures looking horrible Memory leaks Crash bugs This list can go on. I just don't get why they went for this approach. To top it off. A lot of server lag, it's insane (this is for Europe since they picked Ireland which is one of the worst locations). We're talking about 3 seconds lag spikes in instances and what not while my MS is 32 (which is still pretty high for the con I have). End result SWTOR is a laggy game with a horrible optimization. It isn't just you, my system should have no problems running this game and it has the same issues. I have put this game on several systems of various performance levels and it doesn't seem to matter a whole lot. Edited January 25, 2012 by PostalTwinkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Grim-- Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) To the player, it doesn't matter who is at fault. The engine needs a ton of optimization and wasn't ready for PvP primetime. It works fine for PvE, but for PvP it is garbage. Hopefully, they will get it fixed eventually. Even if they do, it won't matter much though. 2 faction PvP in mmo's is impossible to balance or make work, except in instanced scenarios. Scenario PvP is only fun for a short time. Most real Pvp'rs are just waiting for GW2. SWTOR is just a place to bide the time. Edited January 25, 2012 by --Grim-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenstar Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 While I wasn't around when the above was said...... How in the hell can BioWare not expect people to want PvP in a SW based MMO? There is no bigger war in geekdom than what is seen in the SW universe. Did they actually expect to give people Lightsabers and them not want to beat the hell out of the opposing faction? They expected the game to be multiplayer KOTOR, aka a game focused around playing a storyline with other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 As have experience in all levels of what you describe, and can not agree with what you describe. This design and business philosophy is completely wrong and in the end doesn't work. There are plenty of examples as to why this doesn't work and why, if it was done this way, should have been avoided. Another example that applies to this discussion is Blizzard with Diablo III. Blizzard is not its own company anymore, but do you think they are going to cave to Activision and release D3 early? Nope! Blizzard as the developer knows when it is ready and when the people can have it.... If anything I would point fingers at George Lucas. He is known industry wide as being overly demanding and ridiculous to deal with on any licensed product. If any person put a rush on anything it would have been him. But this is my purely unscientific opinion based off the numerous interviews I have read of people that have worked with him in the past. Either way BW should have been strong enough to stand up for what is right and not give in and release when not ready, if that is what happen. You don't have to agree, as your agreement is irrelevant. Many companies still run this way. Whether they become successful or not is another story completely. I don't like investor/executive driven products anymore than anyone else, but they still exist, and still happens quite a lot within software development. And if we're pointing the finger at Lucas (which is a very likely possibility) he would be considered either the investor and/or executive in the example I just mentioned. Therefore, contributing to my point. And if a high level investor/executive threatens to pull the plug on a project unless it starts producing some returns, the developers don't really have much say. Standing up for their product doesn't mean much if you're not in full control of it. I'm not saying Lucas or EA may have really threatened the BW division in this case, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaScroll Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Are you talking of bf2 or bf3? You clearly haven't played bf3 64 with their server lagging, poor netcode and hitbox. It isn't as bad now server wise but it has been 4 months now... Every patch, they fix something and broke something else. Hello 2 people shooting at each other and both dying because of lag. Or dying after crossing a corner. Or emptying a magazine into someone and not doing a thing because that person is d/c or lagging bad etc... Ilum is awful but it is probably best to pick another game to show your point. What did you expect from a shooter so big ?! There was alot involved in this game and there's much more to take into consideration compared to Modern Welfare 3. BF3 has what we could call "expected issues" which will be fixed eventually. Look @ BF2, I remember the demo back in ... what ?! 2004 it was ?! or maybe 2006... The game was buggy as hell ... the retail version was a nightmare itself as well 'til they patched it up. But look @ what BF2 ended up like today... The Devs will keep on working and get this game where it needs to be. Now SWTOR... They'll figure it out, fix bugs & make adjustments so this game gets better overtime. Lets be honest, no game comes out with a 7 years polish & bug free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lectotrans Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So I run the game on my old machine, a 2.4ghz quad core with 4 gigs of memory and 260 Nvida card. It is clearly showing its age and I get latency, I run low textures, etc etc etc... but I am building a rig for a friend and put together an i7 with 16gigs of ram and a 560 Nvida card. Both systems running 500gig 7200 HDD's. The new machine, testing it out, was amazing. Graphics were crisp, had no notable frame rate lose in PvP and while there is still some response latency with abilities, it was reduced. I could do a huttball on full high everything and function flawlessly. The end result is that I find a lot of the complaints on high end rigs to be baffling and while SWTOR should be more forgiving maybe on certain setups, I think that there are a lot of things on the back ends of your own machines/connections that might be causing more issue then SWTOR for most of it. lol, i've only got 4 gigs of ram in this machine and i hardly ever experience lag and almost always have over 60 fps, that's with a HD5770 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 You don't have to agree, as your agreement is irrelevant. Many companies still run this way. Whether they become successful or not is another story completely. I don't like investor/executive driven products anymore than anyone else, but they still exist, and still happens quite a lot within software development. And if we're pointing the finger at Lucas (which is a very likely possibility) he would be considered either the investor and/or executive in the example I just mentioned. Therefore, contributing to my point. And if a high level investor/executive threatens to pull the plug on a project unless it starts producing some returns, the developers don't really have much say. Standing up for their product doesn't mean much if you're not in full control of it. I'm not saying Lucas or EA may have really threatened the BW division in this case, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had happened. I am not trying to disagree with you on anything, as what you are saying is correct. Investors and executives can be a real pain in the *** on things like this and cause grief for many people. But that still doesn't mean the developer, BW, can't stand up for themselves and deliver a quality product. But as of right now we have no idea what happen, and we will never known I am sure. The fact that BW is so tight lipped on everything I think is a major factor in all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I am not assuming everyone will be into PvP, I was mainly in it for PvE until end game. But you still can't argue the fact that if you are Sith or Jedi and see the opposing faction go wandering by you don't have an urge to go at it. This isn't My Little Pony.... But I do agree with you 100% that PvP was an afterthought on this game. Although the truth is there was no reason why BW couldn't approach both aspects of the game at the same level. As a PvPer I will engage in world battle whenever possible. But my PvEer Republic friends will simply wave along a drive-by Sith, and they might just pick flowers together. Just saying there are plenty of those people floating around, as there are people itching to gank and camp. Your "fact" still doesn't apply to everyone. And until you know the reason why BW didn't approach the game with more PvP development, you can't say they have "no" reason not to. Try not to think in absolutes. As a software developer, I can give you plenty of examples why things don't always go in the way of what may be best for the customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I am not trying to disagree with you on anything, as what you are saying is correct. Investors and executives can be a real pain in the *** on things like this and cause grief for many people. But that still doesn't mean the developer, BW, can't stand up for themselves and deliver a quality product. But as of right now we have no idea what happen, and we will never known I am sure. The fact that BW is so tight lipped on everything I think is a major factor in all of this. But you just wrote you couldn't agree with what I described, in your previous post. So I'm confused what you were trying to say. The fact that BW is so tight lipped leads to the speculation that their hand may have been forced, in some way shape or form. That's usually the reason why companies need to be very careful what they say, and what they reveal. I don't think p1ssing Lucas off will be favorable to anyone, relative to this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 But you just wrote you couldn't agree with what I described, in your previous post. So I'm confused what you were trying to say. The fact that BW is so tight lipped leads to the speculation that their hand may have been forced, in some way shape or form. That's usually the reason why companies need to be very careful what they say, and what they reveal. I don't think p1ssing Lucas off will be favorable to anyone, relative to this game. Yea, a bit confusing I know and I apologize, let me try and clear that up. From a business aspect I can't agree with the practice of suits and investors forcing the developer to make snap decisions and rush a product, that is what I meant in the post I said I "couldn't agree" on. I agree 100% that it does happen, even though it is wrong. I also agree with what you just said in that BW being so tight lipped does lend to the belief they might have been forced on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Did you play WAR during it's first year? 64 players in an RvR lake used to = server disco. In it's second year it did get noticably better though and could go up to 100 v 100 before Disco'ing. Again, it just takes time to sort these things. Also, I'd like to add that in WAR, you simply had to have a PC upgrade to have a decent FPS even in huge fights, just had to disable graphical effects on others and on ground. Seriously, I heard people complaining, when ultimately, their PC couldn't handle the heat. Sure, in the 1st year, there was server DCing when big stalemates occured, that's been fixed, but most players bad FPS was client side. I haven't experienced Ilum yet, just bought SWToR, but from my experience, there's no FPS drop whatsoever in 8vs8, If you struggle to get a decent framerate in those matches, upgrade your PC. Just my 2c. Edited January 25, 2012 by Faat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukirshiro Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Major difference here. MMO's are an entirely different animal to BF3 which runs dedicated server racks for singular map rotations, thus you are always guaranteed a steady flow of bandwidth and FPS I don't know whether to laugh or cry. No. Just no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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