Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Xcore]

This thread should be closed because ability delay was fixed.

 

Ima just have to go ahead and point out every single time that "no, it is not in fact fixed" and a statement saying that further fixes for it are coming up does not mean it "will be fixed".

 

Why are people so hot on closing this thread? Has it harmed anything or actually improved something?

 

I agree fully, if it has harmed the game in any way, we should close it...

[Xcore]

This was the first time i ever even posted in this thread. I'm all for making this game better i guess you dont see im on your side of the fence in this issue. No need for the drama.

 

Sincerest apologies in that case, I may have been overly defensive... its a bi-product of fighting for this over the course of 7 threads and 3 weeks... you wouldn't believe some of the opposition we've had in these threads... very much as if they want SW:TOR to fail.

[Xcore]

Xcore, since you play a smuggler, try chaining your ground aoe ability. Try and make a 2nd one start casting soon as the 1st one ends. Much like a mage would chaincast blizzard in WoW for example. How can you claim that this is even remotely playable right now?

 

Will do, give me a few minutes...

[Daedricshots]

Sincerest apologies in that case, I may have been overly defensive... its a bi-product of fighting for this over the course of 7 threads and 3 weeks... you wouldn't believe some of the opposition we've had in these threads... very much as if they want SW:TOR to fail.

 

no worries man i want this game to be awesome too!

[Starglide]

And you shouldn't and "NO-ONE" should, we need to keep up on this, continue to drive Bioware to improve SW:TOR until it is at that point where we complain about trivial crap like class nerfs and balances... vanity pets and why no-one will take melee into raids because bla bla bla...

 

Until then, we need to continue to be critical, analytic and display some stamina here... don't let this issue die, don't let the "High Resolution Textures Thread" die, don't let the "Optimization/Performance/Memory Leak Issue" die... don't let the "Combat Log" discussion die etc. etc.

 

Our drive and our passion 100% translates into Bioware's drive and passion... you want to see a passionless game with ABSOLUTE NO DIRECTION? go to World of Warcraft...

 

Perhaps in 7 years thats what SW:TOR will be like, but right now "we" can help make this a 10 million subs MMO... so lets show some dedication/passion/stamina...

 

 

To all those who will simply say "its fine", "stop whining", "stop comparing to X" etc... in reality, it is them that keep Blizzard and WoW on top. Ignore them, its as if Blizzard paid people to keep SW:TOR down...

 

Praise Bioware where needed (like today), continue to be critical (harshly so) of failures and flaws...

 

Excellent post.

[Morevil]

I noticed a difference after a few hours of pvp. My trinket goes off about 85% of the time on the first hot key hit. If the first hit fails, it always went off on the second hit. This is obviously better than spamming it, and it never going off.

[yillin]

After playing an hour or so last night and a couple hours today, I am becoming more and more sure that the supposed "fix" is nothing more than a placebo, and we are all falling for it. Combat feels exactly the same to me (marauder). In fact, I'm only writing this post because I just had that one situation happen where you activate an ability and your character winds up and then stops and nothing happens while GCD activates. Wasn't even in pvp, was out in pve doing a class quest. As far as I am concerned at this point, I don't think anything was fixed and bioware is yankin our chain to try and quell the masses a bit.

[Xcore]

Xcore, since you play a smuggler, try chaining your ground aoe ability. Try and make a 2nd one start casting soon as the 1st one ends. Much like a mage would chaincast blizzard in WoW for example. How can you claim that this is even remotely playable right now?

 

I can't do it because the ability cannot be cast until the first is done channeling completely...

 

 

1) Channel Ground AOE

2) at any point in the channel attempt to re-channel same ability

3) "Not Yet Ready" Error Message

4) Fail

 

 

However, yes it is remotely playable, you know why? because the above issue (if this is what you're getting and referring to) is "seemingly" easily fixable (if they want to - and I believe they should)...

 

I honestly am not too worried about this one, unless I missed something and you're getting a delay somewhere else?

 

I tried AOE -> Cover and got no delay, I tried AOE (while in cover) -> Instant Ability "X"... no delay etc.

 

The only delay I'm getting is the "Cover Pulse" Animation which SUCKS... but again, seemingly easy fix really of re-sync.

[Fellthar]

After playing an hour or so last night and a couple hours today, I am becoming more and more sure that the supposed "fix" is nothing more than a placebo, and we are all falling for it. Combat feels exactly the same to me (marauder). In fact, I'm only writing this post because I just had that one situation happen where you activate an ability and your character winds up and then stops and nothing happens while GCD activates. Wasn't even in pvp, was out in pve doing a class quest. As far as I am concerned at this point, I don't think anything was fixed and bioware is yankin our chain to try and quell the masses a bit.

 

I believe there has already been some good analytical work done in this thread that shows a marked improvement via videos and such. The problems are not fixed completely, you will still see problems, but some changes have been made that corrects some of the laggy feeling in combat. More changes will hopefully fix other animation and misfire related issues.

[Xcore]

After playing an hour or so last night and a couple hours today, I am becoming more and more sure that the supposed "fix" is nothing more than a placebo, and we are all falling for it. Combat feels exactly the same to me (marauder). In fact, I'm only writing this post because I just had that one situation happen where you activate an ability and your character winds up and then stops and nothing happens while GCD activates. Wasn't even in pvp, was out in pve doing a class quest. As far as I am concerned at this point, I don't think anything was fixed and bioware is yankin our chain to try and quell the masses a bit.

 

I honestly cannot say I've had issues like this (on smuggler) or issues that I've had last night, I'm having more "cosmetic" issues of Animation and Sound sync and yes, I still experience the slight delay on certain chains of abilities but it is absolutely minor in contrast to last night (and everything previous)...

 

This has to be some serious placebo effect because I am not an optimist or pessimist by nature, simply realist... and I mean, I'm being highly critical of the game, I have no reason to state these things unless I am convinced of the truth.

 

 

 

Also I should state, it is entirely possible that if you are still experiencing higher levels (or same as previous) of delay and responsiveness issue you "may" in fact simply have a lower tolerance for this than even I do.

 

You may be a bit more precise, skilled, fast etc player than me... like I said, we need more opinions from Top100 Players, Gladiators, Professional Gamers etc who are more critical.

 

I think of myself as a decent measuring stick to feeling this responsiveness but I must admit that there are people far better than me who must be much more finely attuned to this feeling than me... please share, best you can do is Video Footage.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Xcore

[Starglide]

After playing an hour or so last night and a couple hours today, I am becoming more and more sure that the supposed "fix" is nothing more than a placebo, and we are all falling for it. Combat feels exactly the same to me (marauder). In fact, I'm only writing this post because I just had that one situation happen where you activate an ability and your character winds up and then stops and nothing happens while GCD activates. Wasn't even in pvp, was out in pve doing a class quest. As far as I am concerned at this point, I don't think anything was fixed and bioware is yankin our chain to try and quell the masses a bit.

 

I am sorry XCore, but I sort of agree with this. I am a Marauder myself and I think the issue is only 30% fixed. I don't mean to regurgitate my thoughts, but it is what it is.

 

I am an avid member in this thread and we won't stop Yillin, especially me. Your input is needed so please stick around.

[Stejo]

I can't do it because the ability cannot be cast until the first is done channeling completely...

 

 

1) Channel Ground AOE

2) at any point in the channel attempt to re-channel same ability

3) "Not Yet Ready" Error Message

4) Fail

 

 

However, yes it is remotely playable, you know why? because the above issue (if this is what you're getting and referring to) is "seemingly" easily fixable (if they want to - and I believe they should)...

 

I honestly am not too worried about this one, unless I missed something and you're getting a delay somewhere else?

 

I tried AOE -> Cover and got no delay, I tried AOE (while in cover) -> Instant Ability "X"... no delay etc.

 

The only delay I'm getting is the "Cover Pulse" Animation which SUCKS... but again, seemingly easy fix really of re-sync.

 

I assume you tried doing it out of combat on empty ground. It's one of those things that you just can't understand how their code works. The behavior is different in combat. And it affects all channeled abilities afaik. Try it out, have fun.

[Darth_Haderach]

This is one of the most constructive feedback threads I have ever seen. Apparently it had a major impact on game development as we are currently seeing the benefits after the latest patch. Congratulations for all the effort, it has been rewarding for everyone.

Additionally, this is yet another example of how serious and hard working the development team is.

 

About the ability delay itself, I can just say the patch delayed me buying a new CPU. There are still animation delays and cast bar inaccuracy, but it is considerably less of an issue. Felt like reborn playing the game today. Yet, after a long raiding and PvP career in WoW, I do have quite high expectations, it is after all the game with best responsiveness still. Although SWTOR had to be on that level at launch (not only for people with monster quad-core processors) I can see it getting there very soon.

[Xcore]

I assume you tried doing it out of combat on empty ground. It's one of those things that you just can't understand how their code works. The behavior is different in combat. And it affects all channeled abilities afaik. Try it out, have fun.

 

What happens when you do it in a Warzone? Is the first tick/ticks delayed? or where is the issue? Please explain, I'm seriously interested in this...

[Stejo]

What happens when you do it in a Warzone? Is the first tick/ticks delayed? or where is the issue? Please explain, I'm seriously interested in this...

 

You don't have to do in a WZ, it's 100% repeatable whenever you are in combat with anything. It allows you to preplace the targeting circle on the ground while channeling, then as it finishes the channel attempts to start the next one, sometimes triggers a gcd, sometimes not, always interrupts it tho, you get an error message of some sort, targeting circle disappears and then you have to recast the ability with a lot of dead time in between.

 

Similar, seemingly random without in depth analysis stuff happen if you try to chain cast force lightning or any other channeled ability. Generally channeling is fubar.

[Putok]

I am sorry XCore, but I sort of agree with this. I am a Marauder myself and I think the issue is only 30% fixed. I don't mean to regurgitate my thoughts, but it is what it is.

 

I am an avid member in this thread and we won't stop Yillin, especially me. Your input is needed so please stick around.

 

I'll have to try my Jugg when I get a chance to see how it feels. IMHO, it's more than 50% improved on my Sniper and Assassin. Pretty close to that on my Sorc, chain casts behave much better, and it feels a bit more fluid and predictable. Cast bar inaccuracies, ESPECIALLY when experience pushback, are still annoying.

[StrykerOne]

Just curious, but how are you people even noticing a 0.2 - 0.3 second delay? You can't use abilities faster than 1.5 seconds apart (not counting animation times) anyway because of the GCD so does it really matter if they go off 0.3 seconds after you press the button? I can see such a delay being a huge deal in something like a shooter but whether your grenade hits someone right now or a quarter of a second later shouldn't make the slightest difference when you can't follow it up with anything until the GCD is over anyway should it? Even if your target could somehow stop your ability from landing they'd have to recognize what you were doing and counter it in under a third of a second... maybe some people could actually do that but it's certainly far beyond my capabilities.

 

As for "instant" abilities hitting after the animation is done, that seems perfectly normal to me. I expect my grenade or knife or whatever to do damage after I've drawn it and attacked, not the microsecond I hit the button. But then I'm used to City of Heroes, not WoW... and in CoH all attacks are animation limited and have individual cooldowns, witn no interrupts or instant abilities at all. Sounds like you folks would hate it...

[Starglide]

Just curious, but how are you people even noticing a 0.2 - 0.3 second delay? You can't use abilities faster than 1.5 seconds apart (not counting animation times) anyway because of the GCD so does it really matter if they go off 0.3 seconds after you press the button? I can see such a delay being a huge deal in something like a shooter but whether your grenade hits someone right now or a quarter of a second later shouldn't make the slightest difference when you can't follow it up with anything until the GCD is over anyway should it? Even if your target could somehow stop your ability from landing they'd have to recognize what you were doing and counter it in under a third of a second... maybe some people could actually do that but it's certainly far beyond my capabilities.

 

As for "instant" abilities hitting after the animation is done, that seems perfectly normal to me. I expect my grenade or knife or whatever to do damage after I've drawn it and attacked, not the microsecond I hit the button. But then I'm used to City of Heroes, not WoW... and in CoH all attacks are animation limited and have individual cooldowns, witn no interrupts or instant abilities at all. Sounds like you folks would hate it...

 

Watch my video for a better understanding.

[Stejo]

Just curious, but how are you people even noticing a 0.2 - 0.3 second delay? You can't use abilities faster than 1.5 seconds apart (not counting animation times) anyway because of the GCD so does it really matter if they go off 0.3 seconds after you press the button? I can see such a delay being a huge deal in something like a shooter but whether your grenade hits someone right now or a quarter of a second later shouldn't make the slightest difference when you can't follow it up with anything until the GCD is over anyway should it? Even if your target could somehow stop your ability from landing they'd have to recognize what you were doing and counter it in under a third of a second... maybe some people could actually do that but it's certainly far beyond my capabilities.

 

As for "instant" abilities hitting after the animation is done, that seems perfectly normal to me. I expect my grenade or knife or whatever to do damage after I've drawn it and attacked, not the microsecond I hit the button. But then I'm used to City of Heroes, not WoW... and in CoH all attacks are animation limited and have individual cooldowns, witn no interrupts or instant abilities at all. Sounds like you folks would hate it...

 

I suggest you watch the video in the OP if you want to understand what is the problem and why it is a problem. The short version would be that it affects the flow of combat, since you normally want abilities to follow each other without pauses in between. Mainly this and the fact that instant abilities need to happen instantly, hence the name.

[Sixthy]

I've read countless threads about this ability delay issue (and it's something I noticed the first day I started playing the game), however, in video's and through other people's explanations it seems like the issue I feel the most isn't talked about as much. Most people complain of abilities simply not firing off - while I get that as well, it's this other issue that bothers me more.

 

If I have to make a video to describe what happens, I will, but I'll attempt to put it in text first to see if anyone else experiences this exact issue.

 

I play a Jedi Sentinel (Watchman spec primarily). I can replicate the stuttering issue with a decent amount of consistency simply by doing my opener - mind you, this happens in both PvP and PvE, but it hurts a hell of a lot more in PvP.

 

Standard opener - Force Leap (gain 3 (4) focus) - Overload Saber (This is what charges your weapon to dot enemies - costs 3 focus) - now down to zero focus (or 1 with an extra talent in the combat tree) - and here come's the issue. The obvious next choice here is Zealous Strike, 15 second CD and creates 6 focus - this is the ability that stutters. Let me explain the stutter:

 

I mash the button (usually multiple times yes, because I just can't get myself to hit a button once, stare at the damn thing to make sure it worked and then try again later, in PvP you typically are looking at numerous things on screen and planning strategies on the fly and the last thing you want to do is stare at your action bars, so button mashing is something that's just going to happen) - IT FIRES OFF CAUSING THE GLOBAL COOL DOWN TO BEGIN - meaning that every other ability on my bar that has a GCD will begin to tick down as if the ability happened, however, once the GCD has completed on all abilities, the Zealous Strike is back up and ready to be hit again (a 15 second cooldown mind you), meaning that the ability triggered a GCD, my character went through the animation of the attack, but no focus was gained, no damage was done.

 

Now I have to hit it again and hope it fires off correctly.

 

Now, to replicate this issue (because it's not just Zealous Strike), I've noticed that MOST of this stuttering comes immediately following Overload Saber (this has to be the biggest culprit of this issue for Jedi's) - Almost any ability done immediately following Overload Saber will cause this GCD triggering / ability stutter (however you want to describe it). The absolute worst case scenario is with Master Strike - a 3 second channeled melee attack sequence that holds your character in place as you deliver a few strikes to your enemy. The issue here is, if the ability stutters - it fires off the GCD like the attack happened, and your character launches into the attack sequence - you are locked in place for 3 seconds "attacking" your enemy, but no damage is being dealt. As soon as the 3 second channel is complete, guess what? Master Strike is back up and ready to use (a 30 second cooldown) because it never actually fired off - so, try again. Meaning you waste 6 seconds attempting to get this ability to work.

 

So, Bioware, please look into the issue of attacks that follow up Overload Saber (and often times Force Leap in general) as if they're pressed immediately following the Overload (as they should be because dot damage rolls immediately from this weapon buff), it will MORE OFTEN THAN NOT - AS IN > 50% OF THE TIME - completely stutter, fire off the GCD, make your character go through the attack animation, yet do nothing, and force you to hit the ability again (sometimes a 3rd time - yes, occasionally it will take you 3 to 4 seconds to actually have an instant attack ability succeed because your character has to go through the animation process + the GCD that triggers each and everytime the ability fails to fire off.

 

Hopefully I explained this coherently enough that people know what I'm talking about without needing to post a video. If anyone else has experience this exact issue, please let me know, because most of the other issues I see described or when abilities just flat out don't work (as in the button doesn't activate), where as with this the button activates and your character animates, but nothing actually happens for an entire GCD.

 

Yes - this is still happening after this minor hotfix which hasn't seemed to address this issue very much.

[Calimwulf]

Perhaps in 7 years thats what SW:TOR will be like, but right now "we" can help make this a 10 million subs MMO... so lets show some dedication/passion/stamina...

 

Praise Bioware where needed (like today), continue to be critical (harshly so) of failures and flaws...

Funny how important PvP folks consider themselves to be. I never have understood how small a market share believes that their wishes is what makes a game successful. It is truly 'funny' considering that every game that has gone too far into the 'hardcore' PvP MMO market fails miserably.

 

There is never an excuse for 'harsh' criticism. Criticism should always be constructive. When it isn't, it is easy to dismiss. Sooner or later the whip loses it's sting.

[Xcore]

Funny how important PvP folks consider themselves to be. I never have understood how small a market share believes that their wishes is what makes a game successful. It is truly 'funny' considering that every game that has gone too far into the 'hardcore' PvP MMO market fails miserably.

 

There is never an excuse for 'harsh' criticism. Criticism should always be constructive. When it isn't, it is easy to dismiss. Sooner or later the whip loses it's sting.

 

I disagree, and you don't appear to understand what you quoted me saying.

 

I never advocated a "PvP Game" where your corpse gets looted if you die... where you lose XP if you die... where you must master 200 different combo styles to succeed... I have no idea what you're trying to say with your reply to me.

 

I am not a PvPer... where did you get that from? I even state in my video, "PvP is not my strong suit". Please next time, get your facts together.

 

 

I would also like to say, that Avatar Responsiveness is not up for debate since Mario Games. It has to be perfect or as close to perfection as possible... no "If, but, when, how" about it. Its obvious SW:TOR failed in this department and it is being correctly addressed now.

 

Harsh criticism is very much needed at times, whether you like it or not... the entire middle east has changed due to harsh criticism. Constructive criticism is preferred of course. However, a mix between the two is needed for maximum effect... if you do not understand these realities, I am sorry.

 

I like to think that I have been constructive as well as harsh... hopefully at times blatantly offensive...

[StrykerOne]

Watch my video for a better understanding.

 

I watched it over and over, and every ability appeared to begin animating pretty much the instant the GCD ended. If there was a delay it was too brief for me to notice (and if it was only 0.1 - 0.2 seconds or so I would not be able to notice it). If you are talking about a delay between when an ability begins animating and when it "kicks in" then I would consider that perfectly normal and acceptable (thanks to 7 years of playing a MMO where every power has such delays as a matter of game design), and if you are referring to a delay between when you click the power and when it starts to activate then it was too short for me to notice on a video. But then I'm horrible at twitch gaming... one reason I like RPGs (and by extent MMORPGs) is that twitch skills are not generally needed and, in my opinion, should no more give you an advantage in MMO PvP than great driving skills in a shooter (not counting if you are piloting a vehicle of course).

[Satpolpp]

Why does no 1 in this thread mentions how different the delay is in the last few days?

 

Not quite WoW quality yet but a lot better at least on my side.

[BobTheTeepo]

I disagree, and you don't appear to understand what you quoted me saying.

 

I never advocated a "PvP Game" where your corpse gets looted if you die... where you lose XP if you die... where you must master 200 different combo styles to succeed... I have no idea what you're trying to say with your reply to me.

 

I am not a PvPer... where did you get that from? I even state in my video, "PvP is not my strong suit". Please next time, get your facts together.

 

 

I would also like to say, that Avatar Responsiveness is not up for debate since Mario Games. It has to be perfect or as close to perfection as possible... no "If, but, when, how" about it. Its obvious SW:TOR failed in this department and it is being correctly addressed now.

 

Harsh criticism is very much needed at times, whether you like it or not... the entire middle east has changed due to harsh criticism. Constructive criticism is preferred of course. However, a mix between the two is needed for maximum effect... if you do not understand these realities, I am sorry.

 

I like to think that I have been constructive as well as harsh... hopefully at times blatantly offensive...

 

Sir, I respectfully suggest that harsh criticism is not good criticism unless it is constructive. Being constructive while being harsh is good constructive criticism, but being harsh without being constructive is the lowest form of useful criticism. I haven't really been reading all this (well, I was back at the first incarnation of this thread, maybe the second too I don't remember), so I can't say as to whether or not you are being constructive. Just that "a mix between the two is needed" is only (I believe) correct when you're being harsh AND constructive -- but being harsh without being constructive is no where near as beneficial.